[SiKkBaSs]

Pound for pound beast!

[dxb335d]

Guys, set up a rolling start race then, cuz i still think the M3 would have it licked. An M6 or M5, rolling would walk it.

[alcook]

Just spotted this......

I owned the baby version of this, the T20, for three years and know (knew as I've not really spoken after selling it) Litcho, Tim and the boys at Powerstation (who tune it) very well.

The car in this MY was a Jap import (JDM) only model. Chosen for the lighter body, bigger Turbo and engine internals.

The comments that it isn't technically are Scoob are half right.

The T25 rips out all the internals for Cosworth bits, shoes in the bigger US 2.5 Ltr unit and bolts on the £1,500 Porsche brakes.

The T20 sticks with a std 2 Ltr unit and is mapped for about 335/335.

The AST suspension setup for both cars is the same as is the Miltek exhaust and 'fast road' geometry setup.

The figures for the 25 stand at a good £10k+ over the T20.

Be careful though. There are Mk1 T25's about (same shape) that didn't do the Cosworth parts and brakes, coming in at 380 BHP that went for about £5k over the T20. I've driven both and, in the real world, the T20 was as quick. It was also cheaper to insure and run.

On the track.. nothing from the Scoob stables could touch them. In their first year, Litcho won many 'Tuner GP's' on both handling and race circuits and created a T25 race car that blitzed the 'Time Attack' race series. All the series races were against Skylines, Evo's etc..

The secret here is in the cars balance. All the parts are spot on as the R&D was stunning. Even down to the suspension tuning done by Kurtis who tunes for race teams. That's the sort of R&D carried out to get this right.

Though Carl is right (my std 335D did indeed pull away from a 380 BHP scoob on a rolling start), the nimbleness, 4wd and simple mental fun... meant that this car was a very special, special.

If you're after a Scoob; then this is the one. There is a new shape T25 out, but the old shape is by far the better bet.

Newer Coswoth one for £30k on Pistonheads.



This is one of the older ones.. (350 BHP)

Available from Litchfield Imports for £14k



My old T20 is for sale too... the bloke who bought it after me is selling it for £10k on a 53 plate.



It really is the ultimate Subaru....

[Black Sapphire]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Guys, set up a rolling start race then, cuz i still think the M3 would have it licked. An M6 or M5, rolling would walk it.

You just don't get it do you?!
Do not underestimate the type 25 it's a serious bit of kit.

0-60 its quicker, 0-100mph its quicker.

You asked for lap times, they proved the Impreza was quicker round a track.
You questioned the in-gear times, again these proved a prodrive sti would give the M3 something to think about.

Now you need physical proof, can't you just realise that the cheaper, chavy jap car with the toyota corolla dashboard is quicker than an M3.

And because it's not going the way of the M3, you're now bringing the M5 an M6 in to it.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by Black Sapphire

You just don't get it do you?!
Do not underestimate the type 25 it's a serious bit of kit.

0-60 its quicker, 0-100mph its quicker.

You asked for lap times, they proved the Impreza was quicker round a track.
You questioned the in-gear times, again these proved a prodrive sti would give the M3 something to think about.

Now you need physical proof, can't you just realise that the cheaper, chavy jap car with the toyota corolla dashboard is quicker than an M3.

And because it's not going the way of the M3, you're now bringing the M5 an M6 in to it.

I dont think you get it do you


0-100 it will be quicker, it launches like a hound.

Alcook said his standard 335d with 286bhp pulled away from a 380bhp sueberoo

Ive done similar when mine was standard with en evo.

Just like a porky T kills an M6 from a standing start, rolling its a very different matter

The M3 from a ROLLING start in my onion will pull away slowly from the litchfield motor.

Dont udner estimate how much power sapping a 4wd transimssion can sap.

If 286bhp can pull away from 380 and 4wd. Im plenty sure 414 will pull away from 414 on a roll. (2wd vs 4wd)

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

If 286bhp can pull away from 380 and 4wd. Im plenty sure 414 will pull away from 414 on a roll. (2wd vs 4wd)

What about torque ?? Surely that's more relevant on a rolling acceleration test than horsepower (assuming you're not talking 100mph+ pulls)

[Black Sapphire]

Originally Posted by alcook

Just spotted this......

I owned the baby version of this, the T20, for three years and know (knew as I've not really spoken after selling it) Litcho, Tim and the boys at Powerstation (who tune it) very well.

The car in this MY was a Jap import (JDM) only model. Chosen for the lighter body, bigger Turbo and engine internals.

The comments that it isn't technically are Scoob are half right.

The T25 rips out all the internals for Cosworth bits, shoes in the bigger US 2.5 Ltr unit and bolts on the £1,500 Porsche brakes.

The T20 sticks with a std 2 Ltr unit and is mapped for about 335/335.

The AST suspension setup for both cars is the same as is the Miltek exhaust and 'fast road' geometry setup.

The figures for the 25 stand at a good £10k+ over the T20.

Be careful though. There are Mk1 T25's about (same shape) that didn't do the Cosworth parts and brakes, coming in at 380 BHP that went for about £5k over the T20. I've driven both and, in the real world, the T20 was as quick. It was also cheaper to insure and run.

On the track.. nothing from the Scoob stables could touch them. In their first year, Litcho won many 'Tuner GP's' on both handling and race circuits and created a T25 race car that blitzed the 'Time Attack' race series. All the series races were against Skylines, Evo's etc..

The secret here is in the cars balance. All the parts are spot on as the R&D was stunning. Even down to the suspension tuning done by Kurtis who tunes for race teams. That's the sort of R&D carried out to get this right.

Though Carl is right (my std 335D did indeed pull away from a 380 BHP scoob on a rolling start), the nimbleness, 4wd and simple mental fun... meant that this car was a very special, special.

If you're after a Scoob; then this is the one. There is a new shape T25 out, but the old shape is by far the better bet.

Newer Coswoth one for £30k on Pistonheads.

This is one of the older ones.. (350 BHP)

Available from Litchfield Imports for £14k



My old T20 is for sale too... the bloke who bought it after me is selling it for £10k on a 53 plate.



It really is the ultimate Subaru....

Nice T20 alcook, I prefer the black one though, just because I like black cars!

I went the opposite way, going from a 335d to an MY02 Impreza STI.
0-60 the cars would be evenly matched but anything above this the 335 would pull away. Obviously, as you'd expect they are very different beasts. The smooth linear power delivery of the BM is a far cry from the manic, aggresive more involving drive of the Impreza.
That's what let the 335d down for me, don't get me wrong the BM is an awesome machine and I loved it but it just lacked a few things. A manual gearbox, the sound of a petrol engine/exhaust and a bit more feedback as to how fast your were going. Other than looking at the speedo and thinking "christ, I'd better slow down!"

[Black Sapphire]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

What about torque ?? Surely that's more relevant on a rolling acceleration test than horsepower (assuming you're not talking 100mph+ pulls)

Exactly!

Now carl, you are on about a 335d beating a 380bhp Subaru. Which I don't doubt carl...........but you were on about an M3!

Alcook, do you know how much torque the Subaru had? I'm guessing a similar figure to the bhp.
Also, by how much did your BM pull away?

[Porscha!]

...and in this lesson we all learn Jap cars really do rule

So what if they have dodgy interiors so do 70's Porsches I don't hear anyone here saying "no" to one of those, so what they have "chavvy" bodykits so do most classic rally cars, which an orignal Subaru is surely gaining the status of now? I'd love to have a go.

Jap performance cars weren't ever really made to be pretty or for the interior to have wood and leather all over it, they were made to be functional, in my opinion.

Most Jap cars have great potential for tuning 250 - 300bhp Mk.1 MX5 anyone?? 700bhp Skyline / Supra, 500bhp MR2 turbo etc. etc.

[alcook]

Originally Posted by Black Sapphire

Alcook, do you know how much torque the Subaru had? I'm guessing a similar figure to the bhp.
Also, by how much did your BM pull away?

Test was done on our drive down to Dover for a week long Stelvio trip...
The Scoob is a Scoobyclinic tuned car... so done properly and, as you rightly say, with the same Ft Lb figure.
I was in D at 50... both floored it. I edged away at about 5-10 MPH. The higher figure achieved as we approached...... er..... 70 ish MPH....

Now... Stelvio. This is where proper testing was done on both long open stretches, sweeping bends and tight twisties.

Open, sweeping stretches were no problem. I was able to keep with two leading Scoobs, being well driven, with an Elise and another Scoob with shorter gearing behind, who couldn't / wouldn't get past. Case in point was at the bottom of a loooong stretch into Italy from Davos where we stopped at the bottom of a 10+Km stretch for the Elise and and one Scoob to catch up (traffic rather than pace).. at the bottom I was right behind the two lead Scoobs.. one of them with brakes on fire. Hardcore stuff.

When into the uphill sections, I could gain slowly but when a spot of braking and acceleration was needed... I dropped away. Both the weight and the handling (I was on RFT's) meant I simply couldn't keep up. Nothing major, just a few hundred yards over a few miles.. The BM brakes though.. were epic. No fade or loss at all.

When it got really twisty, I was well out out of it. The 4wd (high grip), light weight (nimble) and BHP (better power to weight) advantage meant I simply couldn't cut it.

This time over a few miles I'd be a minute or two behind...

They were also having more fun over the twisty bits.. I was working hard not to die in ball of flame over a barrier...

Over all though, I was happier in the BM. It really did hold its own in esteemed company. The box and paddles were simply immense and really made the hard driving easier...

They were also filling up twice as much as me. Remember too I had all the luxuries to lug about... the Scoobs were fairly basic... but they (especially the Sat Nav, Seats, sound system, voice command, auto lights and wipers, low noise and less harsh ride) certainly helped on the 800 mile drive back!

Another point.. over the 3000 miles, the Elise driver couldn't go out some days due to some of the bumpy roads and the fact his back had packed up... When they needed someone to pop ahead to check for a decent stopping point to fire up the barbie, I go the job due to the MPG and fact that I could take 3 or so in quiet comfort...

But when we got to the tunnels.... I felt a little sad at hearing such a fantastic noise from the scoobs and nothing from me... saying that, I didn't get stopped by the cops for it.... Also, when doing a video shoot on one section, there was only one car for the balls out, pop-bang, wastegate chatter, large bore rally noise.... that literally had my hairs standing on end and with tears in my eyes... (dust I think). But how many times can you do that Leeds?

Finally, believe it or not...I'm still on the same (RFT) rears as I was back then.... and this is also after a few more North York Moors outings with the boys....

All in all, as you can see, there were many, many pluses and minuses for both types on a hardcore, dedicated and focussed driving week.... I simply find it all a totally pointless exercise in comparing Apples and Kumquats...

Needless to say, in this real world, I don't miss the T20.

[beemerbird]

Enjoyed reading the vast majority of this thread........didn't realise these modded Scoobies existed, sound nice if not wholly comfortable lol.

Nice write up alcook.

Power & torque - what an intoxicating mix.

[SiKkBaSs]

This has ended up being a full blown thread...good sh*t guys. Still wouldn't even consider buying a T25 though...you lose baller status

[Porscha!]

What is baller status?

Power + Torque = Awesome but almost too good anyone?? Still awesome ...

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by beemerbird

Enjoyed reading the vast majority of this thread........didn't realise these modded Scoobies existed, sound nice if not wholly comfortable lol.

Nice write up alcook.

Power & torque - what an intoxicating mix.

Couldn't have said all that better myself
Power & Torque =

[SiKkBaSs]

Originally Posted by Porscha!

What is baller status?

That's simple...driving a BMW

[alcook]

Originally Posted by lightweight

Still wouldn't even consider buying a T25 though...you lose baller status

I'd suggest you're missing out on a whole world of experience. A tuned 4wd Turbo (Mitsi or Scoob) has to be sampled.... really. Nothing else can touch them on a wet back road. Awesome.

Likewise riding a bike, driving a Caterham, Porsche, Ferarri etc etc... they really do need to be owned and driven...

Commenting without such experience is pointless and (no offence here mate and I class myself in at least 2 of these categories) shows a lack of vision and a lack adventure...

It's my ambition to drive (not necessarily own) as many different marques as possible... doing anything less is criminal...

Likewise experiencing a track, 1/4 mile, skydiving etc etc...

We have one short life.... so live it!

[SiKkBaSs]

Originally Posted by alcook

I'd suggest you're missing out on a whole world of experience. A tuned 4wd Turbo (Mitsi or Scoob) has to be sampled.... really. Nothing else can touch them on a wet back road. Awesome.

Likewise riding a bike, driving a Caterham, Porsche, Ferarri etc etc... they really do need to be owned and driven...

Commenting without such experience is pointless and (no offence here mate and I class myself in at least 2 of these categories) shows a lack of vision and a lack adventure...

It's my ambition to drive (not necessarily own) as many different marques as possible... doing anything less is criminal...

Likewise experiencing a track, 1/4 mile, skydiving etc etc...

We have one short life.... so live it!

I wouldn't consider buying one in the future. I totally agree with all you said mate tbh.

[alcook]

[dxb335d]

Great write ups there Alcook matey!!

I know what you mean about a noisy turbo motor, with the loud exhaust and ''waste gate chatter'' which actually aint waste gate chatter but compressor stall but everyone in that sort of scene still calls it that, i even do..... cuz people dont wanna believe its compressor stalll LOLL.

Haha.

Love the Big D forever sha moan.

[SiKkBaSs]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Love the Big D forever sha moan.

Love the big D**k Fandangigolo??

[alcook]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

I know what you mean about a noisy turbo motor, with the loud exhaust and ''waste gate chatter'' which actually aint waste gate chatter but compressor stall but everyone in that sort of scene still calls it that, i even do..... cuz people dont wanna believe its compressor stalll LOLL.

I've done a few explanatory write ups on compressor stall (knowing guys who've installed Anti-lag), but waxing lyrical about 'compressor stall' rather than 'wastegate chatter' doesn't really have the same effect....

[Black Sapphire]

Fantastic write up alcook, sounds like a lot of fun was had that week.
good to get a proper "real world" review

[QUOTE=dxb335d;5043943]

The M3 from a ROLLING start in my onion will pull away slowly from the litchfield motor.
QUOTE]

Just have to agree to disagree, your vast experience of cars is obviously superior to mine.................just checking, does the M3 have 17's and 888's on?

Originally Posted by alcook

I'd suggest you're missing out on a whole world of experience. A tuned 4wd Turbo (Mitsi or Scoob) has to be sampled.... really. Nothing else can touch them on a wet back road. Awesome.

Likewise riding a bike, driving a Caterham, Porsche, Ferarri etc etc... they really do need to be owned and driven...

Commenting without such experience is pointless and (no offence here mate and I class myself in at least 2 of these categories) shows a lack of vision and a lack adventure...

It's my ambition to drive (not necessarily own) as many different marques as possible... doing anything less is criminal...

Likewise experiencing a track, 1/4 mile, skydiving etc etc...

We have one short life.... so live it!

+1
I grab the chance to drive as many different cars as possible, if you don't how can you properly compare the differences.
Luckily through work, friends and colleagues I've had the chance to drive a good selection of cars over the years.