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      02-19-2018, 12:55 AM   #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David 12 View Post
Guido, in one sense the US is different. It is estimated that there are 300 million guns in the US, far more per capita than any other country. How do you take those guns off the street or are they grandfathered with any future gun restrictions?
Yes indeed its a bit pandora's box.
And if I look at the US crime rates and the staggering amount of homicides, I wonder if I'd be living there, would I feel the need to have a gun to defend myself.
Here in europe, if you want a permit and you give as reason that you want to be able to defend yourself at the police station, you'll be laughed at and blacklisted. In west europe wanting to be able to defend yourself is never a viable reason for a gun permit. It means you're triggerhappy and not afraid to use it on another human being.

But look at Australia. I think they started sharping up their laws as late as 1996 or so? That went with relatively low protest and I think the posession of especially hand guns went down drastically? (I think most gun owners have a rifle for hunting and such?)

ITs not that you cant change it, its a matter of willing to change and having the guts to commit to something.

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The other statistical phenomenon is the gun related violence in the inner cities. Gangs, criminals, etc. are a huge source of gun violence in the US.
Restricting gun laws will result in eventually less guns in the society and less easy to get hold of a gun. I mean if I wanted to get an (illegal) gun where I live, it would be impossible to get one.

I also think another statistical phenomenon would drastically go down; children accidentally shooting themselves or their friends....
How high is the current counter in the US now? you have more than 1000 of those deaths annualy I think?
At whatever angle you look at it, if it comes to violence or gun related homocides etc the US scores as high (or as low, matter of how you look at it) as third world countries, and nowhere near any of the western european countries. I mean how can that not be food for thought to do something about the ease of getting guns in your society?

Where I live, about 1 in 250 people have a weapons permit and there is 1 gun on every 85 people on average (so every permit holder has about 3 guns)
Just for laughs sake, look up that statistic for the US. Its probably 100 times as high.
And where I live guns are only allowed for hunting, marksmanship, or reinactment games. That also determins that a lot of very lethal guns (automatic guns, semi automatics with large magazins etc) are not allowed and not popular at all.
With these laws you wont stop terrorist attacks that usually are prepared pretty good because they are rational actions done from a political standpoint, but you'll prevent the majority of the stupid nutcases that go insane like the recent school shooting or the massacre in las vegas.
BTW civilians having guns wont stop any terrorist attack; 9/11 showed that pretty clearly. The deadliest terrorist attack ever in the heart of the country with the most guns.
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      02-19-2018, 01:12 AM   #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
And you think we (in europe) haven't had guns for hundreds of years?
Most first european gun restriction laws (on ownership of guns) date between the 20's and '60s of last century so your argument has no meaning. (guns have been around for since at least the 16th century)

The data is very clear, everyhwere in the western world where they restricted gun laws the intentional homocides, the gun massacres etc etc went down.

This is typically an issue where every western country can say: been there, done that, works fine. Except the US.
And you say the US is different. Right.
Certainly different in a way that a big part of the electorate cant see the how obvious the solution is. And very reluctant to even try it.
One of the problems we all face in the US and internationally, is that most people don't do actual research, they learn what they learn about current events from the media. In a world where the media only reports facts without bias we would all have perfectly accurate information. Unfortunately, we all live in a world (especially in the US) where the media has become a business. In order to make more money, certain biases are infused into reporting. News becomes sensationalized in order to further a viewpoint, and/or to increase eyeballs, leading to increased advertising dollars. So it's in their interest to harp on events that make people watch. How often do you hear about someone using a gun for a positive purpose? As a result of media action, things seem worse or more frequent or more severe than they actually are. Think about it, if we thought the only things that happened in the world are what we see on the news it would be a pretty terrible world to live in.

Here are some factual statistics that i'd like to get any anti-gun person to attempt to explain:

1. Only 6% of gun-related homicides in the US occur with legally owned guns. So if we create a law (which only lawful people would follow) to get rid of guns, that would reduce homicides by 6%?? Furthermore, knowing that the victim is definitely not armed, might actually cause perpetrators to be bolder and commit more crimes.

2. There are abt 100k gun deaths per year in the US, abt 20k of those are suicide so we can remove them from the list (under the assumption that a suicidal person chose a gun as the easiest way to carry out suicide but would have probably found an alternative if a gun wasn't available) That leaves 80k gun deaths, since only 6% of them were committed by legally owned guns, if we got rid of legally owned guns (even if we worked under the incorrect assumption that the lack of the tool would preclude someone from committing a crime rather than finding an alternative method to kill), that would reduce annual homicide by 4800 a year. Not a meaningless number, but not exactly a solution...

3. What happens to the illegal guns out there? How much more comfortable would the people possessing illegal guns feel committing a crime using a gun knowing that the "good guys" don't have one with which to defend themselves?

4. Estimates of defensive gun uses range from 50k to 2.5m per year. Let's assume the smallest number, so 50k per year. What happens to those people going forward? They should die or get robbed? This is the positive impact of gun ownership that no one talks about.

5. Logistics - 300 million guns, 42% of households own one. Make new guns illegal and grandfather existing guns? That's useless because it leaves the guns out there. Forcible try to take away guns from people who currently have them? Would result in more deaths from the repossession process than can be imagined so that doesn't seem doable. Federal buy back program like Australia, where only 1/3rd of all guns were actually bought back (likely from the portion of the population who never used them and were pressed for cash.) That would work for a portion but it would work on the portion that owns them legally and does nothing with the tremendous amount of illegal guns out there being used for crime


Just for clarity, I am not pro or against guns, I am for logic and statistics. If it made sense that the elimination of guns would preclude the malicious intent that causes people to want to murder, I'd be all for it. I just think that making all guns illegal, or even focusing just on AR15s is a a waste of time. I think there are much more effective ways to prevent gun related crime.

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      02-19-2018, 01:16 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Yes indeed its a bit pandora's box.
And if I look at the US crime rates and the staggering amount of homicides, I wonder if I'd be living there, would I feel the need to have a gun to defend myself.
Here in europe, if you want a permit and you give as reason that you want to be able to defend yourself at the police station, you'll be laughed at and blacklisted. In west europe wanting to be able to defend yourself is never a viable reason for a gun permit. It means you're triggerhappy and not afraid to use it on another human being.
Statistic are one thing and reality is something else. I don't think that a majority of the 325+ million people that live in the US are in fear for their lives. As I previously stated, I don't own a gun and feel no need to. My chances of getting killed by a drunk driver or having a fatal medical issue are far, far greater than being killed by a mass murderer.

Top 10 Causes of Death in the U.S.

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      02-19-2018, 05:56 AM   #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
As I previously stated, I don't own a gun and feel no need to.
If you feel safe and dont feel the need to own a gun, and restrictions on posessing guns have prooved to work in other countries bringing down crime rates and for sure accidental deaths, then why are you against any gun control legislation?
I mean in any kind of statistic related to deaths by guns, intended or unintentionally, or even crime in general the US has a really appaling track record compared to western europe (western europe is about as big as the US population wise, if not bigger), where the US often scores on the same level or worse as lots of third world countries and often five times (500%) or more as worse as western european countries.
You have to admit that in that light the US has a big problem.
Of course you can come up with statistics that dying in traffic or from heart disease or whatever is a much bigger probability and that therefore there is no problem, but that would imply that some old guy dying from a heart attack is just as bad as some kid getting shot in school.
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      02-19-2018, 08:17 AM   #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
5. Logistics - 300 million guns, 42% of households own one.
The number I've seen is 24%, are you sure about yours?
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      02-19-2018, 08:33 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by wdb View Post
The number I've seen is 24%, are you sure about yours?
I saw that somewhere. Maybe the one you saw is 24% of PEOPLE and the one I saw is 42% of HOUSEHOLDS, because in most households I’m guessing only one of the two adults “owns” the guns.
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      02-19-2018, 11:40 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
BTW civilians having guns wont stop any terrorist attack; 9/11 showed that pretty clearly. The deadliest terrorist attack ever in the heart of the country with the most guns.
This is possibly the stupidest thing I have read on here in a while.

How does 9/11 show this? Do you think we could just hop on a flight with a gun? As with most of the mass shootings over here, this also happened in a gun free zone.
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      02-19-2018, 11:45 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
If you feel safe and dont feel the need to own a gun, and restrictions on posessing guns have prooved to work in other countries bringing down crime rates and for sure accidental deaths, then why are you against any gun control legislation?
Where exactly was this proven to work? Australia? They actually haven't shown any improvement in murders or violent crime in comparison to the US... only in gun related murders and gun related crimes. Switching out the tool doesn't fix the problem, it just takes another freedom away from you.
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      02-19-2018, 11:57 AM   #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
If you feel safe and dont feel the need to own a gun, and restrictions on posessing guns have prooved to work in other countries bringing down crime rates and for sure accidental deaths, then why are you against any gun control legislation?
I mean in any kind of statistic related to deaths by guns, intended or unintentionally, or even crime in general the US has a really appaling track record compared to western europe (western europe is about as big as the US population wise, if not bigger), where the US often scores on the same level or worse as lots of third world countries and often five times (500%) or more as worse as western european countries.
You have to admit that in that light the US has a big problem.
Of course you can come up with statistics that dying in traffic or from heart disease or whatever is a much bigger probability and that therefore there is no problem, but that would imply that some old guy dying from a heart attack is just as bad as some kid getting shot in school.
I never said that I was against any gun control legislation. I said that I believe that guns are not the problem. Big difference.
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      02-19-2018, 12:21 PM   #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
One of the problems we all face in the US and internationally, is that most people don't do actual research, they learn what they learn about current events from the media.
Pretty much; hence the recent "18 school shootings in 2018" rhetoric:

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      02-19-2018, 12:28 PM   #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paliknight View Post
So they start using AK's?
Which they've banned in some states already; mine being one of them.

So along with the AK ban, *specific* model AR ban, and the ban on sales of magazines with higher than 10-round capacity for ANY firearm, the legal/responsible owners face a significant disadvantage while the criminals continue to run rampant with no fux given
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      02-19-2018, 12:55 PM   #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
I never said that I was against any gun control legislation. I said that I believe that guns are not the problem. Big difference.
Of course guns are not the problem, the problem is that complete wacko's can get their hands on them.
So either you get rid of the guns, or you get rid of anyone who is a potentionally suspected wacko.

But you dont think strickt gun legislation works? Then why scores about every western country that has that roughly 500% or so better in gun related crime stats?
Why is the US on par with 3rd world countries on that social aspect?
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      02-19-2018, 01:04 PM   #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Of course guns are not the problem, the problem is that complete wacko's can get their hands on them.
So either you get rid of the guns, or you get rid of anyone who is a potentionally suspected wacko.
Don't you hear how absurd that argument is?


So get rid of alcohol, because people can get drunk and do bad things?

Get rid of cars because people can get drunk and use them as weapons?

Get rid of baseball bats because they can be used as weapons? Knives?

What about cell phones - distracted drivers have killed many more people than mass shooters.

Europe got rid of the guns and now they use rental trucks. Guess rental trucks should be banned also.

The problem is not the guns period.
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      02-19-2018, 01:06 PM   #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCobra94 View Post
Which they've banned in some states already; mine being one of them.

So along with the AK ban, *specific* model AR ban, and the ban on sales of magazines with higher than 10-round capacity for ANY firearm, the legal/responsible owners face a significant disadvantage while the criminals continue to run rampant with no fux given
Well, banning the bullet button will surely lead to a dramatic drop in gun crime in CA

Given who is committing the majority of gun crime, and what they're using, maybe the geniuses in charge of blue states should try banning Hi Points instead of AR 15s.
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      02-19-2018, 01:10 PM   #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post

The problem is not the guns period.
Then you think that all those crime stats are fake?
Why if we in europe allow rental trucks on the road, where I live the homicide rate is 800% lower?
And why do you think every western country says that restricting guns lowers those rates drastically?
Because it IS the problem. Why not listen to people in countries who have their shit togheter on that point?
And 'they' are not using rental trucks. There was one terrorist attack with it. All the mass shootings show that whackos mainly choose guns. Terrorist use whatever is most effective especially if they suspect to die, being a plane, truck, bomb etc. Because those events are rationally planned. Thats what you wont prevent, but thats not the bulk of the killings. And thats why the US has their shit as much togheter on this aspect as an average third world country and the rest of the western world scores a multitude better.
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      02-19-2018, 01:14 PM   #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Of course guns are not the problem, the problem is that complete wacko's can get their hands on them.
So either you get rid of the guns, or you get rid of anyone who is a potentionally suspected wacko.

But you dont think strickt gun legislation works? Then why scores about every western country that has that roughly 500% or so better in gun related crime stats?
Why is the US on par with 3rd world countries on that social aspect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Then you think that all those crime stats are fake?
Why if we in europe allow rental trucks on the road, where I live the homicide rate is 800% lower?
And why do you think every western country says that restricting guns lowers those rates drastically?
Because it IS the problem. Why not listen to people in countries who have their shit togheter on that point?
Make up your mind.
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      02-19-2018, 01:21 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
Make up your mind.
I have.
You really dont understand that sentence?!?
That the unrestricted availability of guns is the problem?
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      02-19-2018, 01:24 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
I have.
You really dont understand that sentence?!?
That the unrestricted availability of guns is the problem?
You didn't say that - you said guns were the problem. I already stated that I was not opposed to appropriate gun legislation. But you said ban guns. Big difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Of course guns are not the problem, the problem is that complete wacko's can get their hands on them.
So either you get rid of the guns, or you get rid of anyone who is a potentionally suspected wacko.
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      02-19-2018, 01:37 PM   #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
You didn't say that - you said guns were the problem. I already stated that I was not opposed to appropriate gun legislation. But you said ban guns. Big difference.
You seriously have a comprehensive reading problem....

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
because it has shown that in every western country where they restricted guns that it reduces the death by guns AND the murder rate in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post

The data is very clear, everyhwere in the western world where they restricted gun laws the intentional homocides, the gun massacres etc etc went down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post

Restricting gun laws will result in eventually less guns in the society and less easy to get hold of a gun. I mean if I wanted to get an (illegal) gun where I live, it would be impossible to get one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
and restrictions on posessing guns have prooved to work in other countries bringing down crime rates and for sure accidental deaths,
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post

But you dont think strickt gun legislation works?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
And why do you think every western country says that restricting guns lowers those rates drastically?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/restrict

Clear enough?

Where do I say ban?
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      02-19-2018, 01:46 PM   #416
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So from what I gathered in this thread--there isn't a solution everyone agrees on.

I own an AR-15, Remington 870 and a couple handguns (one is issued for duty). There should be some type of regulation on weapons, but the truth is that the NRA is just too powerful today and because the gun culture is just too big to just squash. IMO, you can try and change it all you want but that culture will definitely not change in our lifetime.

What I could imagine is tomorrow--the gov't that everyone has been becoming more reliant on these days, could ban sales on all guns in the US and then what? We'll still have a ton of weapons circulating and a bunch of gunsmiths illegally churning out their own weapons for sale on the black market.

Today, according to pewresearch.org, there is approx. 270 to 310 million firearms in the United States. It'll be an ugly day for America when the gov't tries to remove firearms from 300 million Americans. I've seen war and it ain't pretty--just imagine another American civil war in the 21st century.
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      02-19-2018, 01:50 PM   #417
GuidoK
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^you live in germany?
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      02-19-2018, 01:55 PM   #418
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^you live in germany?
Actually, yes at the moment for a few years for work. I am from California and work leo ft and mil pt.
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