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      02-19-2018, 12:56 PM   #419
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^but do you have your weapons in Germany under the WaffG?
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      02-19-2018, 12:56 PM   #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joooiiiiii View Post
So from what I gathered in this thread--there isn't a solution everyone agrees on.

I own an AR-15, Remington 870 and a couple handguns (one is issued for duty). There should be some type of regulation on weapons, but the truth is that the NRA is just too powerful today and because the gun culture is just too big to just squash. IMO, you can try and change it all you want but that culture will definitely not change in our lifetime.

What I could imagine is tomorrow--the gov't that everyone has been becoming more reliant on these days, could ban sales on all guns in the US and then what? We'll still have a ton of weapons circulating and a bunch of gunsmiths illegally churning out their own weapons for sale on the black market.

Today, according to pewresearch.org, there is approx. 270 to 310 million firearms in the United States. It'll be an ugly day for America when the gov't tries to remove firearms from 300 million Americans. I've seen war and it ain't pretty--just imagine another American civil war in the 21st century.
That's sort of the issue isn't it, as the saying goes there's no putting the shit back in that horse. There are far too many guns in circulation already to try to restrict access to them ESPECIALLY for the criminals. Even if you could wave a wand and make every gun on Earth disappear they are so easy to make that a bunch of primitive people in the 13th century managed it, by accident at that. Give me 20 minutes in Home Depot and I'll build you a gun.

So then, guns aren't going anywhere for as long as our species is around. What then? As the pages of this thread show, there isn't an easy answer. How can we solve a problem when we can't say for certain what the solution(s) is?
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      02-19-2018, 01:00 PM   #421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PINeely View Post
That's sort of the issue isn't it, as the saying goes there's no putting the shit back in that horse. There are far too many guns in circulation already to try to restrict access to them ESPECIALLY for the criminals. Even if you could wave a wand and make every gun on Earth disappear they are so easy to make that a bunch of primitive people in the 13th century managed it, by accident at that. Give me 20 minutes in Home Depot and I'll build you a gun.

So then, guns aren't going anywhere for as long as our species is around. What then? As the pages of this thread show, there isn't an easy answer. How can we solve a problem when we can't say for certain what the solution(s) is?
Yes, I watched a documentary on the Philippines a few years back about how they have a big gun culture as well. Apparently, you can go to many places for someone to make you a gun if you wanted one. Totally illegal, but hey, we're humans--we'll always outthink each other no matter the issue.

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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
^but do you have your weapons in Germany under the WaffG?
I can only say I do have access to firearms while living here in the event I needed one and of course I still must qualify semi-annually while in Germany because my job back home also requires it.
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      02-19-2018, 01:06 PM   #422
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Originally Posted by joooiiiiii View Post

I can only say I do have access to firearms while living here in the event I needed one and of course I still must qualify semi-annually while in Germany because my job back home also requires it.
I dont understand completely. I guess you're in the army, but you have access to firearms professionally or privately?
And if privately, are you the owner (so that the permit lies with you) or are they guns available at a gunclub/shooting range?

The reason I ask is I'd like to know what part of the legislation/weapons permit process is completely different to the US and what part makes it that weapons are less popular (although in germany weapons are relatively popular) and there are less accidents and other excesses with them than in the US. So in other words what parts of the permit process are very effective and are there also parts of the permit process that are nonsense?
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      02-19-2018, 01:21 PM   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCobra94 View Post
Pretty much; hence the recent "18 school shootings in 2018" rhetoric:

So yes you can be proud the US has not reached 18 firearms issues at schools so far this year.

Only 3 separate incidents have resulted in deaths, I guess only having 3 school shootings by February is something to be proud of.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ow-many-so-far


Also, that video seems to be from an organisation that does not really sit in the middle ground.



Admittedly not really up on the plethora of American news channels.



With this obviously being a highly complex issue, I was wondering what those pro gun people think could be done to even reduce the numbers of school shootings or the next Las Vegas type attack?

For the anti gun lot what would you propose? Just banning firearms will change nothing, the logistics of surrendering weapons would be exceptionally complicated and result in numerous fatalities.


One thing to consider is just putting severe restrictions on ammunition.

People may have the right to have firearms but do not think it says anything about ammunition....

Stop ammunition being as readily available as it is, then it does not really matter how many guns are in circulation.

Yes people will hoard it but set restrictions on how much can be held.

Just a thought, obviously not a single solution as it's all far too complicated for a silver bullet fix.
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      02-19-2018, 01:25 PM   #424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
I dont understand completely. I guess you're in the army, but you have access to firearms professionally or privately?
And if privately, are you the owner (so that the permit lies with you) or are they guns available at a gunclub/shooting range?

The reason I ask is I'd like to know what part of the legislation/weapons permit process is completely different to the US and what part makes it that weapons are less popular (although in germany weapons are relatively popular) and there are less accidents and other excesses with them than in the US. So in other words what parts of the permit process are very effective and are there also parts of the permit process that are nonsense?
Professionally. I don't quite understand the process myself for private firearm ownership except that the possibility to own a weapon in Germany is very difficult (except for hunting I believe). I am definitely not the subject matter expert on that, however I can always ask if you are truly interested and send you a PM about it.
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      02-19-2018, 01:27 PM   #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
So yes you can be proud the US has not reached 18 firearms issues at schools so far this year.

Only 3 separate incidents have resulted in deaths, I guess only having 3 school shootings by February is something to be proud of.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ow-many-so-far


Also, that video seems to be from an organisation that does not really sit in the middle ground.



Admittedly not really up on the plethora of American news channels.



With this obviously being a highly complex issue, I was wondering what those pro gun people think could be done to even reduce the numbers of school shootings or the next Las Vegas type attack?

For the anti gun lot what would you propose? Just banning firearms will change nothing, the logistics of surrendering weapons would be exceptionally complicated and result in numerous fatalities.


One thing to consider is just putting severe restrictions on ammunition.

People may have the right to have firearms but do not think it says anything about ammunition....

Stop ammunition being as readily available as it is, then it does not really matter how many guns are in circulation.

Yes people will hoard it but set restrictions on how much can be held.

Just a thought, obviously not a single solution as it's all far too complicated for a silver bullet fix.
I think that's a good idea myself however, I personally know a lot of folks who make their own ammunition. There are machines available everywhere in the US to make your own.
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      02-19-2018, 01:36 PM   #426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
You didn't say that - you said guns were the problem. I already stated that I was not opposed to appropriate gun legislation. But you said ban guns. Big difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Of course guns are not the problem, the problem is that complete wacko's can get their hands on them.
So either you get rid of the guns, or you get rid of anyone who is a potentionally suspected wacko.

But you dont think strickt gun legislation works? Then why scores about every western country that has that roughly 500% or so better in gun related crime stats?
Why is the US on par with 3rd world countries on that social aspect?
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
You seriously have a comprehensive reading problem....


Clear enough?

Where do I say ban?
Clear enough?? I have no reading comprehension problem.
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      02-19-2018, 01:52 PM   #427
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I think the first thing you need to establish is that having a gun requires a permit that has to be renewed every so often and that the gun has to be registred to that permit.
That way you can regulate it if someone is showing behaviour that is not allowed and prevent them to have guns to prevent future disasters.
For instance if someone has been hospitalized because of a suicide attempt or so, that would be the time to retract that permit. (where I live a mental health check has to be done to grant a permit and a few years ago some police commisioner didnt do his job right and granted a permit to a person that had suicidal tendencies (medical record) and that resulted in a public shooting killing 6 people, wounding 17 and then killing himself).

Another obvious one is not allowing guns to be stored loaded and having guns and ammo stored seperately in their own vault.

Third, not allowing to bear loaded arms in public. In europe we go much further, there you can only transport your (unloaded) gun to the huntingground or shooting range/gunclub or maybe a gunsmith. Wanting to transport it anywhere else reqruires a seperate permit per time you transport it.
That way you can regulate small time trafficing and regulate where a gun is legally at within society etc That someone has a permit for a gun is fine, but would you want to have that person carrying that gun near a school, playground, toy store and such? (to give an idea what you can accomplish with such an implementation)
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      02-19-2018, 01:57 PM   #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
Clear enough?? I have no reading comprehension problem.
Get rid of guns can be done be restricting too. Its not the same as banning.
Getting 'rid of the guns' refers to
"the problem is that complete wacko's can get their hands on them."
Thus the guns that wackos have.
Having posted 7 posts in this topic advocating restricting of firearms pretty much sums up that you do have a reading comprehension problem. If 7 times isnt enough, then how much times is?
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      02-19-2018, 02:11 PM   #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Get rid of guns can be done be restricting too. Its not the same as banning.
Getting 'rid of the guns' refers to
"the problem is that complete wacko's can get their hands on them."
Thus the guns that wackos have.
Having posted 7 posts in this topic advocating restricting of firearms pretty much sums up that you do have a reading comprehension problem. If 7 times isnt enough, then how much times is?
I guess it is a language barrier problem then. In my language, "get rid of" means to do away with completely. It does not mean limit access to.

Have a good day.
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      02-19-2018, 02:17 PM   #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
I guess it is a language barrier problem then. In my language, "get rid of" means to do away with completely. It does not mean limit access to.

Have a good day.
Getting rid of the guns wackos have.

Thats all I can say and I thought that was clear, following the sentence in question in that post with a remark on strict legislation and having written 7 posts about restricting guns and never said all guns have to be removed permanently from society
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      02-19-2018, 02:25 PM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joooiiiiii View Post
I think that's a good idea myself however, I personally know a lot of folks who make their own ammunition. There are machines available everywhere in the US to make your own.
Yep agree on the making your own rounds bit.

Really as there is no clear solution, its horrendously complex, I believe putting various risk reduction things in place is best first step.

There is no silver bullet and it's really a case of reducing number of occurrences and numbers of fatalities.


It's also funny how many different firearms can be legally owned in the UK.

Not as wide as the US obviously but very able to cause carnage and multiple fatalities.

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/reviews?...=&orderby=date

Even one of these.

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/reviews/...o-rifle-review

Us Brits tend to assume everything is banned but I could still own a 0.5 Rifle, although you might get spotted wandering around town with it..
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      02-20-2018, 11:01 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by evdok View Post
I am definitely not the subject matter expert on that, however I can always ask if you are truly interested and send you a PM about it.
Surprised you don't already know that information, but I'd be interested in hearing the answer to that as well.
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      02-20-2018, 11:12 AM   #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
So yes you can be proud the US has not reached 18 firearms issues at schools so far this year.
So you've taken the side of twisting statistics to support your own narrative/initiative/agenda; you must work for CNN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
Only 3 separate incidents have resulted in deaths, I guess only having 3 school shootings by February is something to be proud of.
That number still pales in comparison to the number of deaths caused by undocumented immigrants guilty of causing drunk driving deaths. Why not take that cause up instead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
Also, that video seems to be from an organisation that does not really sit in the middle ground.
It doesn't matter if the devil himself created and published that video; point is, it's 100% factual compared to the agenda which liberal media continues to push, hurting their cause in the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
One thing to consider is just putting severe restrictions on ammunition.
Banning the easiest devices to manufacturer is no way around the issue. This logic works best in stand-up comedy, not real life.
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      02-20-2018, 11:14 AM   #434
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Another mass shooting and Taylor Swift still remains silent.
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      02-20-2018, 11:39 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
Another mass shooting and Taylor Swift still remains silent.
Don't you go bringing TS into this...

I like the people saying "Just restrict ammo."... it gives a good indication of how little they actually know about guns and ammo.
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      02-20-2018, 02:32 PM   #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCobra94 View Post
So you've taken the side of twisting statistics to support your own narrative/initiative/agenda; you must work for CNN.


That number still pales in comparison to the number of deaths caused by undocumented immigrants guilty of causing drunk driving deaths. Why not take that cause up instead?


It doesn't matter if the devil himself created and published that video; point is, it's 100% factual compared to the agenda which liberal media continues to push, hurting their cause in the process.


Banning the easiest devices to manufacturer is no way around the issue. This logic works best in stand-up comedy, not real life.
Why oh why do people keep harping on about cars causing deaths or other things also causing them.

Also why mention imigrants? Do American citizens not only cause numerous drink driving deaths as well?

Exactly why puck out immigrants ? Or that natural racism coming out?

The very same road deaths occur in other countries, things are put in place to reduce the risks, driving test, having a minimum age, vision tests, speed limits, drink and drug tests, points, prison sentences, driving bans etc.

Also no twisting of stats, I said 3 incidents that resulted in deaths, that's more than any other country so far this year.

That's 3 incidents you can be proud of.

Sticking your head in the ground and being political is utterly pointless.

As soon as any American uses the word liberal, democrat, republican etc, they instantly politicise the issue which means it will never ever be sorted or even looked at properly.

Okay what is your solution?

Exactly how would you start the ball rolling on this very complex issue?
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      02-20-2018, 02:53 PM   #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
Yep agree on the making your own rounds bit.

Really as there is no clear solution, its horrendously complex, I believe putting various risk reduction things in place is best first step.

There is no silver bullet and it's really a case of reducing number of occurrences and numbers of fatalities.


It's also funny how many different firearms can be legally owned in the UK.

Not as wide as the US obviously but very able to cause carnage and multiple fatalities.

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/reviews?...=&orderby=date

Even one of these.

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/reviews/...o-rifle-review

Us Brits tend to assume everything is banned but I could still own a 0.5 Rifle, although you might get spotted wandering around town with it..
Weapons aren't much use if you can't use them to defend yourself without ending up like Tony Martin. I know Canadians who like to smugly mention the kinds of guns they are 'legally' allowed to own - well good luck not going to jail if you have to ever use one to defend yourself from a mugger or rapist.

TBH tho I don't know why you'd even need guns in the UK when you can buy stuff like this freely online

https://www.amazon.co.uk/SABRE-DID66.../dp/B00ANLVSJI
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      02-20-2018, 02:55 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
Why oh why do people keep harping on about cars causing deaths or other things also causing them.

Exactly why puck out immigrants ? Or that natural racism coming out?
For the first point - people are just pointing out that many more lives are taken through poor decisions and driving than through these shootings that just get way more press. If people really care about reducing innocent lives being taken, they have other avenues they can follow that would save more people.

I am not sure, other than that the same people that are always harping on gun control are the same ones that completely disregard the immigration laws. They care so much about life when it is taken by a gun but could seemingly care less when it is caused by something they support.
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      02-20-2018, 03:48 PM   #439
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[quote=joooiiiiii;22805382]Yes, I watched a documentary on the Philippines a few years back about how they have a big gun culture as well. Apparently, you can go to many places for someone to make you a gun if you wanted one. Totally illegal, but hey, we're humans--we'll always outthink each other no matter the issue.



www.ghostguns.com , and yes they are legal in America.
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      02-20-2018, 06:29 PM   #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
But at least Obama tried. Here is a partial list of executive orders that Obama signed after the Sandy Hook shooting:

1) Issuing a presidential memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS).
2) Addressing unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA), that may prevent states from making information available to NICS.
3) Improving incentives for states to share information with NICS.
Directing the attorney general to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks.
4) Proposing a rule making to give law enforcement authorities the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun.
5) Publishing a letter from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers.
6) Starting a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.
7) Reviewing safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission).
8) Issuing a presidential memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.
9) Releasing a report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and making it widely available to law enforcement authorities.
10) Providing law enforcement authorities, first responders and school officials with proper training for armed attacks situations.
11) Issuing a presidential memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to research gun violence.
12) Directing the attorney general to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenging the private sector to develop innovative technologies.
13) Clarify that the Affordable Care Act (ACA) does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.
14) Releasing a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.
15) Providing incentives for schools to hire school resource officers.
16) Developing model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship, and institutions of higher education.
17) Releasing a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover.
18) Finalizing regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within insurance exchanges.
19) Committing to finalizing mental health parity regulations.
20) Starting a national dialogue on mental health led by Kathleen Sebelius, the secretary of health and human services, and Arne Duncan, the secretary of education.

You can argue all you want as to whether any of it was effective or useful. But at least he took some steps addressing gun safety, mental health and gun ownership. What has Trump done?
What has Trump done? Let’s see. Bump stocks came up today.

But then again, from your liberal standpoint, what did Trump take away from this list that would have prevented the 17 deaths last week?

Or were these Obama items just window dressing?
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