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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90/E92/E93 Marketplace (For Sale / Trade / Wanted) > SPONSORS Classifieds/Groupbuys/Specials Area > Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Parts > xHP Flashtool - Flash your automatic trans! Official thread



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      02-27-2018, 12:42 AM   #1915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paanzerfaust View Post
Yes, stock turbos just Bolt ons and tunes.

Not calling you a liar and thanks for the reply but I just have some trouble believing that's the case for the N54 - why would BMW design an engine to rev that high and have WOT shift points anywhere near there then? .................................. but then why do BMW have it shift so high .................................................. ........................

Yea, and you can ask also: Why on earth BMW desided to use such a sluggisch transmision program instead of a more appropriate one, comparable to xHP or Alpina?

IMHO in both cases the same thought: it's incomprehensible and it doesn't make any sense.

Besides that, 99% of the cars have a useless redline and some far beyond there max. power output....but hey, they have to put somewhere a redline.
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      02-27-2018, 06:04 AM   #1916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paanzerfaust View Post
Thanks for the info! I definitely see what you mean with the technical peak power dropping off after 6k, but even in the first thread my point was mentioned and then never addressed - doesnt shifting at a higher RPM (as in above that 6.2k sweet spot) keep you in the power band for the next gear, which would make sense as to why BMW programs the cars to shift there too? Isn't the goal with custom shift points to ensure you're consistently getting the most average power, I.e. if I shift at 6.2 where my turbos are making peak power, then the car will be at a lower point in the power curve for the next gear. Whereas if I shift at 6.9-7.1k I could potentially be in a better part of the curve for the next gear to continue the quick acceleration, rather than going Max power>shift, down below ideal point and have to build power again if I was shifting at 6K. If shifting at 7k, would I be going slightly past Max power cutoff>shift, in a better spot to make power in the next gear instead of taking a large drop in power after the shift because I shifted too early and now I'm way below peak torque and HP for the subsequent gear, thus causing a kind of cutoff or bog in the cars potential Max acceleration? Do you get what I'm saying?
Most people give the same answer , power falls off and sure it does. But there is a merit to your question. And the answer is acceleration curve and gear ratio.
The goal is highest acceleration. Rougly speaking acceleration reduces as you increase gears and reduces by the gear ratio. First to secong drops almost to .6, 2nd to 3rd to .65, 3rd to 4th to .75, 4th to 5th to 0.76 and 5th to 6th to 0.79.
That should be the clue to pick shift points. How does the acceleration curve look like? Same shape as torque!
So in 2nd when the torque reduces to .65 highest value, one can shift because the highest acceleration expected in 3rd is only 0.65 of the peak at 2nd and so on. If i have time i will try to graph this. This is litlle complicated i guess and many ppl may not grasp this.
Key is to understand acceleration and how it reduces by gear.
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      02-27-2018, 02:42 PM   #1917
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2013_E92 View Post
If you check out the graph from the second link I quoted: Direct Link to Graph It has a dyno run for both the stock N54 and a modded N54.

From the graph you can see that the start (AND Peak of the n54 torque curve is at 3200~ Rpms)

And if you check out this article on acceleration you can see how important torque is to your cars acceleration CarThrottle Article

Quote from the center
"More torque means more force you have to either accelerate your car or pull a load with, since torque is Force x distance (aka lb-ft or Newton-Meters). Power is basically how fast you can keep putting out that torque.


When it comes to acceleration, really power doesn’t matter all that much. Recall that acceleration is:

All about Horsepower, Torque, speed, and acceleration. - Blog
So if our goal is maximum acceleration, you can go about it two ways: Either increase the Force (torque) applied by the engine and transmission, or decrease the mass the engine has to move (your car)."

And if peak torque is around 3200~ RPMS, you would want to shift into a pretty low RPM, but even shifting at 6200 RPMS you still cant shift to 3200 RPM's

Check out this youtube video of a stock 335i shifting at 7,000 (redline)

as you can see shifting from:

first -> second @7000 = 4500RPM start in second gear
second -> third @7000 = almost 5000RPM start in third gear

these numbers are significantly higher than the 3200 RPM target to hit for peak torque.
Unless you have custom gearing or some really wierd sized tires/final drive swap, with stock turbos, no reason to shift at redline and certainly not over.

let me know if your still unclear about anything.
Perfect, that video and your explanation afterward are exactly what I was looking for - maybe I'll mess with lowering the WOT shift points to 6.3-6.6k then? Does that sound reasonable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMM View Post
Yea, and you can ask also: Why on earth BMW desided to use such a sluggisch transmision program instead of a more appropriate one, comparable to xHP or Alpina?
As far as the transmission thing goes, I think that's because most BMW owners aren't fanatics like us and would rather have a smoother, more sluggish ride than the fast bang-shifts that xHP offers.
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      02-27-2018, 02:53 PM   #1918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paanzerfaust View Post
Perfect, that video and your explanation afterward are exactly what I was looking for - maybe I'll mess with lowering the WOT shift points to 6.3-6.6k then? Does that sound reasonable?
I would set the WOT shiftpoint for 1st - 2nd at no higher than 6200RPM
I would set the WOT shiftpoint for 2nd - 3rd at no higher than 6000 RPM
and for the rest of the gears in WOT no higher than 6000RPM unless your encountering traction issues that are shift related.


If your car has enough grip ( sticky enough tires ) to handle being dropped into more torque on a first -> second shift, id try to get the first -> second shift slightly lower then 6,000RPM (if your on an OTS map 5800-5900 is ideal), Becuase of the more aggresive torque spike when shifting early on the N54, you may not have enough traction to handle it.

id test out the above numbers, and continue to drop them until you either:

a: start spinning tires on the shift
b: get to 6,000RPM WOT shiftpoint

IE if 6200 has no slip in the shift, drop it to 6100, still no slip, drop to 6000

Because your on stock turbos, as long as your running summer tires you should have no issue setting the second -> third shift @ 6000 from the get go.
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      02-28-2018, 03:04 PM   #1919
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Incorrect. Tidbits from here and there.
Btw, i have graphed acceleration for the n54 thru the gears for shift points. If anyone interested let me know, may be that will be easier to grasp or carry on lol
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      02-28-2018, 06:13 PM   #1920
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgop335 View Post
Incorrect. Tidbits from here and there.
Btw, i have graphed acceleration for the n54 thru the gears for shift points. If anyone interested let me know, may be that will be easier to grasp or carry on lol
Post your data/graph please.
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      02-28-2018, 06:15 PM   #1921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgop335 View Post
Incorrect. Tidbits from here and there.
Btw, i have graphed acceleration for the n54 thru the gears for shift points. If anyone interested let me know, may be that will be easier to grasp or carry on lol
please post your graphs / data I was fairly confident in my response, if you have found something else I'm very curious.
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      02-28-2018, 07:29 PM   #1922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IllSic_Design View Post
Post your data/graph please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2013_E92 View Post
please post your graphs / data I was fairly confident in my response, if you have found something else I'm very curious.
No problem guys. I graphed this in excel w data from my car. As mentioned earlier acceleration curve has same shape as the torque curve (i can demonstrate that) but their values vary vastly gear to gear due to gear ratio as shown below. Based on the analysis below One may appreciate high revving cars and in general the importance of transmission, gear ratios etc.
The analysis is a reasonable representation and explains the basics but obviously has assumptions.
1. No traction loss
2. Gear ratios used are 6spd auto from 2007 e92
3. Redline 7k, and no ecu nannies like torque limit
4. Shape of curve below will vary based on your tune etc.
5. No drag (altho drag will only make the higher gears worse)
and few more im sure

Graph below shows acc on yaxis and rpm on x. The shape of the curve which mirrors the torque curve will depend on your car. I have shown dashed lines to demonstrate if the torque falls off at a faster rate after 6k.

Well i think the graph shows it, riding on 1st acceleration is the highest, you can go 6500rpm+ on 1st and still have higher acc than anwhere in 2nd! notice this shift point advances forward (meaning shift rpm keeps dropping as can clearly be seen by the arrows) as you move UP thru the gears since the acceleration in the next gear keeps getting closer. Make sense?
Also notice the dashed lines - if your torque falls off quicker obviously the shift rpm reduces as can be seen clearly.
Something missing in this whole graph? HP.
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      03-01-2018, 09:51 AM   #1923
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Don't want to derail your convo here...but I can't seem to find any info on my issue.

I have MHD Stg1 and XHP Stg3 flashed. Everytime I make ANY adjustment to MHD it messes up my XHP tune. i.e. when I turned burble off, my trans threw 4wd codes and wouldn't shift proper. Same thing has happened for wastegate rattle adjustment and a couple other things. I found that as long as I did a reflash of XHP Stg3 after anything MHD then I was good to go.

I installed DCI this past weekend and reset the intake mass flow. I didn't get a 4wd error and the car drove perfectly fine the first time. After that it stopped acknowledging S mode. Doesn't matter where the shift selector sits, I can only get D mode. The paddles and shifter will still do manual, but as I'm sure you know, D pops back in rather quickly.

I've reflashed the MHD Stg1 and XHP Stg3 maps multiple times with no adjustments, and I still have the same issue. I'm going to flash both back to stock and then reflash the tuned maps and see if that works.

Just wanted to see if anyone else has experienced anything similar. Also wanted to semi-complain to XHP that I'm disappointed in the compatibility between MHD and XHP. They work great together, but they also seem to work against each other sometimes. Can we get this addressed?
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      03-01-2018, 01:57 PM   #1924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowerednlifted View Post
I installed DCI this past weekend and reset the intake mass flow. I didn't get a 4wd error and the car drove perfectly fine the first time. After that it stopped acknowledging S mode. Doesn't matter where the shift selector sits, I can only get D mode. The paddles and shifter will still do manual, but as I'm sure you know, D pops back in rather quickly.

I've reflashed the MHD Stg1 and XHP Stg3 maps multiple times with no adjustments, and I still have the same issue. I'm going to flash both back to stock and then reflash the tuned maps and see if that works.
Sounds like the dreaded harness issue.
Pull your center console and look at the shifter harness.
I have $10 says you have at least one broken wire in there.
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      03-01-2018, 02:11 PM   #1925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz View Post
Sounds like the dreaded harness issue.
Pull your center console and look at the shifter harness.
I have $10 says you have at least one broken wire in there.
Dang, that doesn't sound fun. :-/ I guess I'll give that a shot this weekend. Thanks.

My passenger airbag light randomly turns on and off, and for the first time my trunk light came on yesterday while driving. Potentially related? I came from the audi world and we always joked about the bimmers and their bad wiring, haha.
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      03-01-2018, 03:08 PM   #1926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowerednlifted View Post
Dang, that doesn't sound fun. :-/ I guess I'll give that a shot this weekend. Thanks.

My passenger airbag light randomly turns on and off, and for the first time my trunk light came on yesterday while driving. Potentially related? I came from the audi world and we always joked about the bimmers and their bad wiring, haha.
Not sure about the airbag.
The trunk is probably the harness that goes from the body to the trunk.
I've had to patch it when I had my E30 M3, E36 M3 and now my E90 335.
The trunk harness will give you backup and other light errors as well as the trunk open.

The shifter hardness is not too bad.
Google "bmw 335i shifter harness repair".
It's a common problem.

I'm ready to get the flash but I don't want to buy them all when I'll probably just settle on one. Trying to decide between 2 and 3.
I might get stage 3. I don't hear many people on the forum talking about stage 2.

Hmmmmm........
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      03-01-2018, 03:36 PM   #1927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz View Post
Not sure about the airbag.
The trunk is probably the harness that goes from the body to the trunk.
I've had to patch it when I had my E30 M3, E36 M3 and now my E90 335.
The trunk harness will give you backup and other light errors as well as the trunk open.

The shifter hardness is not too bad.
Google "bmw 335i shifter harness repair".
It's a common problem.

I'm ready to get the flash but I don't want to buy them all when I'll probably just settle on one. Trying to decide between 2 and 3.
I might get stage 3. I don't hear many people on the forum talking about stage 2.

Hmmmmm........
Yeah, I looked it up. Should be an easy fix. I guess it's just crazy coincidence that there's a physical failure at the same time that I'm doing module programming, haha. Sh!tty.

I went ahead and just bought the super license. I went this route so that I can get all the updates for free and what not. However, I went straight to Stg3 and haven't looked back. I saw some posts on here about people preferring to run Stg2, but me personally I wanted that super quick shifting with the paddles. When the wife and baby are in the car, I just switch it to D and all is good.
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      03-01-2018, 06:24 PM   #1928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgop335 View Post
No problem guys. I graphed this in excel w data from my car. As mentioned earlier acceleration curve has same shape as the torque curve (i can demonstrate that) but their values vary vastly gear to gear due to gear ratio as shown below. Based on the analysis below One may appreciate high revving cars and in general the importance of transmission, gear ratios etc.
The analysis is a reasonable representation and explains the basics but obviously has assumptions.
1. No traction loss
2. Gear ratios used are 6spd auto from 2007 e92
3. Redline 7k, and no ecu nannies like torque limit
4. Shape of curve below will vary based on your tune etc.
5. No drag (altho drag will only make the higher gears worse)
and few more im sure

Graph below shows acc on yaxis and rpm on x. The shape of the curve which mirrors the torque curve will depend on your car. I have shown dashed lines to demonstrate if the torque falls off at a faster rate after 6k.

Well i think the graph shows it, riding on 1st acceleration is the highest, you can go 6500rpm+ on 1st and still have higher acc than anwhere in 2nd! notice this shift point advances forward (meaning shift rpm keeps dropping as can clearly be seen by the arrows) as you move UP thru the gears since the acceleration in the next gear keeps getting closer. Make sense?
Also notice the dashed lines - if your torque falls off quicker obviously the shift rpm reduces as can be seen clearly.
Something missing in this whole graph? HP.
Could I copy this and paste it over in the 1/4mi section on some other forums? if this is true, im very surprised, because everyone I know on stock turbos short shifts this platform in drag races.
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      03-01-2018, 11:30 PM   #1929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgop335 View Post
No problem guys. I graphed this in excel w data from my car. As mentioned earlier acceleration curve has same shape as the torque curve (i can demonstrate that) but their values vary vastly gear to gear due to gear ratio as shown below. Based on the analysis below One may appreciate high revving cars and in general the importance of transmission, gear ratios etc.
The analysis is a reasonable representation and explains the basics but obviously has assumptions.
1. No traction loss
2. Gear ratios used are 6spd auto from 2007 e92
3. Redline 7k, and no ecu nannies like torque limit
4. Shape of curve below will vary based on your tune etc.
5. No drag (altho drag will only make the higher gears worse)
and few more im sure

Graph below shows acc on yaxis and rpm on x. The shape of the curve which mirrors the torque curve will depend on your car. I have shown dashed lines to demonstrate if the torque falls off at a faster rate after 6k.

Well i think the graph shows it, riding on 1st acceleration is the highest, you can go 6500rpm+ on 1st and still have higher acc than anwhere in 2nd! notice this shift point advances forward (meaning shift rpm keeps dropping as can clearly be seen by the arrows) as you move UP thru the gears since the acceleration in the next gear keeps getting closer. Make sense?
Also notice the dashed lines - if your torque falls off quicker obviously the shift rpm reduces as can be seen clearly.
Something missing in this whole graph? HP.
See, this is exactly what I had in mind when I made my first few posts "arguing" about how it wouldn't make sense to shift at 5.8k on an engine made to rev up to 7k. I understand the that higher boost=more power=more acceleration so I understand the thoughts that prioritize that but people often underestimate gearing etc.

So judging by your post mixed with 2013_E92 I should kind of mix-and-match your techniques right? Short shifting in the later gears to keep myself in that nice torque curve but holding out on the first and second gear maybe?
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      03-04-2018, 06:30 PM   #1930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siphor1989 View Post
Where are you guys reading that xHP stage 3 removes the limiter? From what I read, with stage 3, the transmission will not automatically upshift once at the limiter like the OEM tune would. Like the OEM tune, xHP still will not allow the transmission to downshift into a gear that would cause an over-rev situation.
This is where I got the information
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      03-04-2018, 10:20 PM   #1931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asiflicious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by siphor1989 View Post
Where are you guys reading that xHP stage 3 removes the limiter? From what I read, with stage 3, the transmission will not automatically upshift once at the limiter like the OEM tune would. Like the OEM tune, xHP still will not allow the transmission to downshift into a gear that would cause an over-rev situation.
This is where I got the information
From my experience, that's correct. I can bang the engine off the rev limiter when doing a hard launch, but the car won't allow me to over rev a downshift.
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      03-04-2018, 10:22 PM   #1932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toome View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by asiflicious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by siphor1989 View Post
Where are you guys reading that xHP stage 3 removes the limiter? From what I read, with stage 3, the transmission will not automatically upshift once at the limiter like the OEM tune would. Like the OEM tune, xHP still will not allow the transmission to downshift into a gear that would cause an over-rev situation.
This is where I got the information
From my experience that is correct. I can the engine off the rev limiter, but the car won't allow me to over rev a downshift.
So you'd have to really be trying to hurt to car to cause any damage? You won't be able to overrev on accident?
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      03-04-2018, 10:28 PM   #1933
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asiflicious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toome View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by asiflicious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by siphor1989 View Post
Where are you guys reading that xHP stage 3 removes the limiter? From what I read, with stage 3, the transmission will not automatically upshift once at the limiter like the OEM tune would. Like the OEM tune, xHP still will not allow the transmission to downshift into a gear that would cause an over-rev situation.
This is where I got the information
From my experience that is correct. I can the engine off the rev limiter, but the car won't allow me to over rev a downshift.
So you'd have to really be trying to hurt to car to cause any damage? You won't be able to overrev on accident?
The only way you'll hit the limiter is if you do not upshift either intentionally or if you forget you're in manual mode. A mechanical over rev is impossible, so you'll never go above the 7k redline in any situation.
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      03-05-2018, 07:48 AM   #1934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paanzerfaust View Post
I have a couple (and some probably dumb) questions RBT-Tuning or whoever else. My car is an E92 N54 with slight modifications, MHD tune and running Stage 3 xHP for reference.

I have the customization license and I was wondering if those "default" numbers that show on the screen when you enable the custom shiftpoints are what are already programmed on the custom TCU flash (I'm running stage 3 FWIW) or if I'd benefit from enabling the custom shiftpoints, not touching anything else on that screen, and reflashing my TCU?

Second, is there any reason I shouldn't set the shift points in S mode for both pressed and depressed kickdown buttons to be the same thing? I'd be bumping the DEpressed shift points up to 6950 in S to match the 6950 shift point setting thats set for while KD is pressed.

Third, are there any safe upper-limits "quick settings" that I could do for the shift points without any serious worry? What I mean by that is, for example, is it "known" to be safe or are there any previously-tested shift point settings that are safe to use? Like if I were to bump the 3->4 shift up to a full 7k or 7.05K, keep the 1->2 shift at 6950 so as not to experience wheel spin on the shift, bump 2->3 up to x RPM shift point (those are all just for example, I'm not running out and doing them right now.) I don't have much experience with changing shift points, all my cars I've had them raised and I'm aware of the danger and wear and tear on an engine from them, but I'm also well aware you can potentially squeeze out some extra power per gear and put yourself in that nice sweet spot for the next gear.
The defaults are the ones the TCU uses stock. So it may happen, that someone experiences different behaviour just by setting custom shiftpoints to active as the Tunes use different values. (partly) You can't ruin anything with these settings, as the engine RPM limiter will be always inplace, regardless what you enter here. The custom points are there, to reflect the different tunes people are using. People with high torque mid-range tune on stockers will be faster with different settings, than guys with upgraded twins or single turbo which can make decent torque in the upper range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 86merc View Post
@RBT-Tuning I have a question about the 'depressed' and 'pressed'. By definition thet sound like the same thing. Which one is meant to be which?

It seems like 'depressed' = kickdown switch activated /engaged. Then 'pressed' = kickdown not activated / engaged.

Could the terminology be changed to make it more clear?
Wording is changed to active/inactive in the next release! (until that: pressed = kickdown active)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowerednlifted View Post
Don't want to derail your convo here...but I can't seem to find any info on my issue.

I have MHD Stg1 and XHP Stg3 flashed. Everytime I make ANY adjustment to MHD it messes up my XHP tune.
Just drive hundred meters after flashing MHD and all returns back to normal. The reason is simple: The ECU auto-learns if it sits in an AT or MT car. When flashing it, it dumps that information and starts the re-learn again. Until it recognizes theres an auto-trans in the car, it does not send out the messages on CAN Bus, the transmission needs to work. Therefore the trans does not work at all. No way around that, besides finding a way to preserve that information and restoring it after flash. MHD Tuning
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      03-05-2018, 11:12 AM   #1935
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Originally Posted by RBT-Tuning View Post


Wording is changed to active/inactive in the next release! (until that: pressed = kickdown active)

The future update wording makes it very clear. Thank you for clarifying what it is currently.

I change the shift points a few times this weekend just to verify they were working as they should be. It worked great every time. Thank you for the update. I appreciate not having to rev my 100K+ mile engine needlessly. haha

I can't wait to see the future updates. Keep up the great work.

Last edited by 86merc; 03-05-2018 at 11:26 AM..
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      03-05-2018, 12:06 PM   #1936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toome View Post
The only way you'll hit the limiter is if you do not upshift either intentionally or if you forget you're in manual mode. A mechanical over rev is impossible, so you'll never go above the 7k redline in any situation.
unless your WOT and hooked up in a low gear, in which case the inertia of your car could cause an overrev if you slammed into the rev limiter.

IE:

Car in 1st, sticky tires, takes off WOT all the way till redline, no upshift input, auto upshift disabled, Inertia of the car accelerating, causes an overrev.
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