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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > Regional Forums > UK > UK Technical Forum > MY N53 (NOX, Injectors, rough run, sooty exhaust) Is running badly how do I diagnose



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      10-12-2019, 05:33 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_460cs View Post
The nox sensor is after the nox cat, so the assumption is not accurate I'm afraid
In this case I would assume that ppm will be increasing slowly and that means nox cat becomes "dirty" and needs regen. After regen done, sensor should "see" less nox ppm than before.
If that's what happens, then simply coding a new nox cat will not help, because all of that nox ppm will just fly through the cat not neutralized and sensor will still see higher than usual nox ppm.
Which is not great because that's exactly what I did - coded new nox cat without replacing anything yet.
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      10-12-2019, 05:37 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Dormermike View Post
Anyone else recognise someones writing as very similar to the bimmerprofs replies or is it just me
I think they will be quoted often as there is tons of technical knowledge on their page, the trick is to filter out the disinformation that promotes NOXEM as the only viable solution.
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      10-12-2019, 07:05 PM   #91
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I'll be installing NOXEM on Monday. Kinda scared now a little after reading about the problems, but hoping it will work fine.
Any suggestions? Should I put anything onto the insert or threads? How much force to use then tightening it?
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      10-12-2019, 08:18 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
I'll be installing NOXEM on Monday. Kinda scared now a little after reading about the problems, but hoping it will work fine.
Any suggestions? Should I put anything onto the insert or threads? How much force to use then tightening it?
In my opinion NOXEM is still one of the best 2 options (other being mapping) and there are always those who have trouble with products!

Some have mapped, some have NOxEM both from everything everyone has said and I've read are the only 2 options available and both have pros and cons!
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      10-13-2019, 01:29 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
I'll be installing NOXEM on Monday. Kinda scared now a little after reading about the problems, but hoping it will work fine.
Any suggestions? Should I put anything onto the insert or threads? How much force to use then tightening it?
as for the torque...TIS says following :
5AZ NOX sensor to exhaust system N53 M20 New part 52 Nm
and make sure you apply some antiseize (Loctite or so) on the thread...BUT! make sure the head of senzor remains clear!
and finally...GOOD LUCK!...at least better luck than me
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      10-13-2019, 01:39 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by aaronblack View Post
In my opinion NOXEM is still one of the best 2 options (other being mapping) and there are always those who have trouble with products!

Some have mapped, some have NOxEM both from everything everyone has said and I've read are the only 2 options available and both have pros and cons!
Fully agree...and there is also one important similarity...none of the 2 options helps the environment with lowering nox emissions ...it just helps us surviving at reasonable costs (on which others are still profiting)...until EU countries widely launch nox emission check during technical inspections of the cars. If bmw guys were environment cautious and smart they would be selling oem nox cats to the older cars at accessible prices...I do not believe that industrial mass production would not be able to deliver them say at 500-600euro and still have a profit...
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      10-13-2019, 01:50 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
In this case I would assume that ppm will be increasing slowly and that means nox cat becomes "dirty" and needs regen. After regen done, sensor should "see" less nox ppm than before.
If that's what happens, then simply coding a new nox cat will not help, because all of that nox ppm will just fly through the cat not neutralized and sensor will still see higher than usual nox ppm.
Which is not great because that's exactly what I did - coded new nox cat without replacing anything yet.
you could survive couple of weeks...depending on your driving style...as highest nox values are produced by switching to stratified...so if you will give it a go in homogenous than the nox sensor might not alarm ecu. Also..try to do a forced regeneration of nox cat through inpa/ista 2-3times (after say 300-400miles)
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      10-13-2019, 02:05 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_460cs View Post
The nox sensor is after the nox cat, so the assumption is not accurate I'm afraid
Then it means that nox sensor really monitors efficiency of the cat and explains why new oem sensor with old nox cat show very wide range of ppm values; while noxem with only bosch wideband probe has rather restricted range of values because it does not measure actual nox concentartion...
Interesting experiment would be to connect bosch wideband probe to oem nox unit (where the nox head already died)...if the output signals of ngk nox probe and bosch wideband probe were similar it might work...but it would be too simple as I guess that bosch probe has a different output which is then "corrected" in the analogue part of nox unit...while digital parts (those reporting to ecu via canbus) are probably very same in oem nox and noxem...
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      10-13-2019, 04:19 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jirka330i View Post
as for the torque...TIS says following :
5AZ NOX sensor to exhaust system N53 M20 New part 52 Nm
and make sure you apply some antiseize (Loctite or so) on the thread...BUT! make sure the head of senzor remains clear!
and finally...GOOD LUCK!...at least better luck than me
Thanks. Would you put antiseize in both threads: the sensor itself and the insert? Or just one of those?
It might be a pain to later remove the insert from the pipe in case whatever fails...
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      10-13-2019, 05:33 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
Thanks. Would you put antiseize in both threads: the sensor itself and the insert? Or just one of those?
It might be a pain to later remove the insert from the pipe in case whatever fails...
definitely apply antiseize in the outside thread of the insert....but my problem was to get insert from the pipe even though loctite was applied..bosch sensor itself came out very easily (after couple of weeks in place...)
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      10-13-2019, 05:42 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
Thanks. Would you put antiseize in both threads: the sensor itself and the insert? Or just one of those?
It might be a pain to later remove the insert from the pipe in case whatever fails...
..and maybe check with some experienced mechanic..I think that the catch here could be the size of the thread...TIS refers to the thread M20! While noxem is M18 with this strange insert. When I checked (before installation) about the torque with bimmerprofs they responded something like "...no big deal...no high pressures in the exhaust...you can follow TIS..." so my mechanic applied 52Nm ...couple of the weeks later the sensor went out easily but the insert stayed in the pipe and broke in 2 parts when mechanic used special tool to get it out...I do not know whether that was rather result of the correct torgue on incorrect sensor or just a low quality issue of the insert
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      10-13-2019, 06:39 AM   #100
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I will be doing it in a garage so will ask mechanic before I do anything.
But antisieze and loctite are like the opposites as far as I know. Antisieze is more like grease to prevent rust while loctite is like glue.
I do have red and blue loctite I used in my RC helicopters, I remember one was more like permanent and the other was to prevent screws from self-unscrewing due to vibrations, but easy to remove (not super hard permanent).
So unless there is a risk of this coming out by itself due to vibrations, antisieze is probably the only thing needed.

EDIT: found it: "The red products are so powerful that they require heat to be disassembled. LoctiteŽ Blue Threadlocker is of medium strength can be dissembled with hand tools."

I would assume if loctite is used, the probe will come out easily and the insert will not and it will have to be picked with some pick tool breaking it in the process.
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      10-13-2019, 06:46 AM   #101
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Actually, I could use blue loctite on the probe itself so that the insert glues a little bit to it and then antisieze on the outside thread (outside of the insert). This way when its taken out later, more likely the probe will come out with insert still attached to it.
Again, I'll have to check with mechanic what he thinks.
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      10-13-2019, 07:08 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
Actually, I could use blue loctite on the probe itself so that the insert glues a little bit to it and then antisieze on the outside thread (outside of the insert). This way when its taken out later, more likely the probe will come out with insert still attached to it.
Again, I'll have to check with mechanic what he thinks.
definitely...check with the mechanic...my uses loctite antiseize ( but I am not sure which of them...as google shows more variants) but others use different brand.
I think it should not definitely be any threadlocker...the temperatures in the exhaust when regeneration runs are well over 600 celsius

EDIT : perhaps it is this one... https://www.grainger.com/product/LOC...Compound-2VFF3
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      10-13-2019, 07:08 AM   #103
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Copper slip for antiseize - I think?
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      10-13-2019, 07:20 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_460cs View Post
There is company in Germany that will supply a new nox sensor that connect to the existing electronics I had considered this method as it was allot a cheaper than a new one sensor at around £170..

Unfortunately there appears to be a glut china clone parts on eBay which are highly suspect!! So please be aware!!
This is probably the cheapest original thing to buy if someone needs a new sensor? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-...3/392268072699
Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_460cs View Post
There is company in Germany that will supply a new nox sensor that connect to the existing electronics I had considered this method as it was allot a cheaper than a new one sensor at around £170..

Unfortunately there appears to be a glut china clone parts on eBay which are highly suspect!! So please be aware!!
This is probably the cheapest original thing to buy if someone needs a new sensor? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-...3/392268072699
That's a china clone!! Beware god knows what it does!!! I wouldn't want to chance it spiking the ecu!!

If you want cheap buy a replacement 8 wire nox probe and reuse the existing electronics..
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      10-13-2019, 07:21 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
Actually, I could use blue loctite on the probe itself so that the insert glues a little bit to it and then antisieze on the outside thread (outside of the insert). This way when its taken out later, more likely the probe will come out with insert still attached to it.
Again, I'll have to check with mechanic what he thinks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_460cs View Post
There is company in Germany that will supply a new nox sensor that connect to the existing electronics I had considered this method as it was allot a cheaper than a new one sensor at around £170..

Unfortunately there appears to be a glut china clone parts on eBay which are highly suspect!! So please be aware!!
This is probably the cheapest original thing to buy if someone needs a new sensor? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-...3/392268072699
Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
Actually, I could use blue loctite on the probe itself so that the insert glues a little bit to it and then antisieze on the outside thread (outside of the insert). This way when its taken out later, more likely the probe will come out with insert still attached to it.
Again, I'll have to check with mechanic what he thinks.

Please don't use loctiite of any type!

Taking out the old sensors requires use of a small propane blow torch and lots of wd40 + plenty of patience !! as they are seized in place and corroded..
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      10-13-2019, 07:24 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormermike View Post
Copper slip for antiseize - I think?
Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_460cs View Post
There is company in Germany that will supply a new nox sensor that connect to the existing electronics I had considered this method as it was allot a cheaper than a new one sensor at around £170..

Unfortunately there appears to be a glut china clone parts on eBay which are highly suspect!! So please be aware!!
This is probably the cheapest original thing to buy if someone needs a new sensor? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-...3/392268072699
Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
Actually, I could use blue loctite on the probe itself so that the insert glues a little bit to it and then antisieze on the outside thread (outside of the insert). This way when its taken out later, more likely the probe will come out with insert still attached to it.
Again, I'll have to check with mechanic what he thinks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormermike View Post
Copper slip for antiseize - I think?

This is like the age old argument of using copper grease on spark plugs!!! It is always Recomended that any sensor is fitted dry with out anti seize as anti seize can effect the sensor Operation, the sensor has a nickel layer if I remember which is in effect the the anti seize provided by the manufacturer same as spark plugs! Ngk wrote an in-depth article on spark lubrication if you want to know more
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      10-13-2019, 07:38 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jirka330i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by leew88 View Post
It all depends if the "map-out" retains the stratified running mode, but I don't see how that's going to work because the DME needs it's algorithms to determine when and when not to run stratified and switch between homogeneous mode (depending on conditions). If it's mapped out then effectively you have no data from the NOX sensor so the DME will resort to emergency homogeneous mode.

There is also a reason as to why there is a separate ECU attached to the NOX sensor for all these extra processing. I would like to see a vehicle with a NOX mapped-out with INPA showing the running mode - you are able to get it into stratified by pressing the throttle lightly above 1.5k rpm to see the switch happening.
This is exactly a question I am trying to get answered by tuners...how do they reset/remap msd80 when they delete/ map out nox sensor

as far as I am aware the nox system consists of 2 major parts:

nox sensor (which reports to the msd80 through canbus in a binary code something which could sound "hallo...here is nox sensor, all my electrical connections are OK, heating of sensor head works, actual temperature in exhaust is XY Celsius and actual nox concentration is 5ppm..." and if this report is accepted by msd80 it allows all 3modes...)

nox catalyst (which is managed by msd80 on the basis of an algorithm which calculates catalyst cloging...which you can also see in inpa or ista... on the basis of either kms driven or fuel consumption...and then decides when to start regeneration if all the necessary conditions are in place...incl at least half of the tank and speed at least 110kmh);

the trap here is the fact that even with nox sensor delete and even with catalyst physically removed you still have the msd80 calculating the clogging and when it reaches a critical value (not sure if it is 3000mg or more...) it reports 30e9 error and stops stratified; one thing which I tested was an encoding of "virtually new" nox catalyst in ista...which than leads msd80 to reset clogging value...but it is always only part time solution....so I wonder how the tuners stop msd80 calculating catalyst clogging without an impact on all other linked processes and algorithms...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jirka330i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by leew88 View Post
It all depends if the "map-out" retains the stratified running mode, but I don't see how that's going to work because the DME needs it's algorithms to determine when and when not to run stratified and switch between homogeneous mode (depending on conditions). If it's mapped out then effectively you have no data from the NOX sensor so the DME will resort to emergency homogeneous mode.

There is also a reason as to why there is a separate ECU attached to the NOX sensor for all these extra processing. I would like to see a vehicle with a NOX mapped-out with INPA showing the running mode - you are able to get it into stratified by pressing the throttle lightly above 1.5k rpm to see the switch happening.
This is exactly a question I am trying to get answered by tuners...how do they reset/remap msd80 when they delete/ map out nox sensor

as far as I am aware the nox system consists of 2 major parts:

nox sensor (which reports to the msd80 through canbus in a binary code something which could sound "hallo...here is nox sensor, all my electrical connections are OK, heating of sensor head works, actual temperature in exhaust is XY Celsius and actual nox concentration is 5ppm..." and if this report is accepted by msd80 it allows all 3modes...)

nox catalyst (which is managed by msd80 on the basis of an algorithm which calculates catalyst cloging...which you can also see in inpa or ista... on the basis of either kms driven or fuel consumption...and then decides when to start regeneration if all the necessary conditions are in place...incl at least half of the tank and speed at least 110kmh);

the trap here is the fact that even with nox sensor delete and even with catalyst physically removed you still have the msd80 calculating the clogging and when it reaches a critical value (not sure if it is 3000mg or more...) it reports 30e9 error and stops stratified; one thing which I tested was an encoding of "virtually new" nox catalyst in ista...which than leads msd80 to reset clogging value...but it is always only part time solution....so I wonder how the tuners stop msd80 calculating catalyst clogging without an impact on all other linked processes and algorithms...

The nox delete is a misnomer, everything is still in place however the error condition is deleted... you see a shadow code which is unknown in the ecu... mine used to fail for the the heater element of the probe... now I see a a unknown code... and all 3 modes work
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      10-13-2019, 07:40 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by schriss View Post
It would be amazing if I get anywhere close to 42mpg. I have high hopes Especially funny after coming from 2.2L which got me 31mpg on highway at best.
The last time after resetting the gauge and driving some time on motorway with forced desulphation I came back with 24mpg or so. I wonder if that forced desulphation (via INPA) is the reason for so bad mpg? (apart from NOX not working)
Still waiting for my mechanic to come back from vacation, 2 more weeks.
Car is grounded because of NOX and also crooked belt tensioner.
Good I didn't get rid of my old E46 2.2L straight six just yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jirka330i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by leew88 View Post
It all depends if the "map-out" retains the stratified running mode, but I don't see how that's going to work because the DME needs it's algorithms to determine when and when not to run stratified and switch between homogeneous mode (depending on conditions). If it's mapped out then effectively you have no data from the NOX sensor so the DME will resort to emergency homogeneous mode.

There is also a reason as to why there is a separate ECU attached to the NOX sensor for all these extra processing. I would like to see a vehicle with a NOX mapped-out with INPA showing the running mode - you are able to get it into stratified by pressing the throttle lightly above 1.5k rpm to see the switch happening.
This is exactly a question I am trying to get answered by tuners...how do they reset/remap msd80 when they delete/ map out nox sensor

as far as I am aware the nox system consists of 2 major parts:

nox sensor (which reports to the msd80 through canbus in a binary code something which could sound "hallo...here is nox sensor, all my electrical connections are OK, heating of sensor head works, actual temperature in exhaust is XY Celsius and actual nox concentration is 5ppm..." and if this report is accepted by msd80 it allows all 3modes...)

nox catalyst (which is managed by msd80 on the basis of an algorithm which calculates catalyst cloging...which you can also see in inpa or ista... on the basis of either kms driven or fuel consumption...and then decides when to start regeneration if all the necessary conditions are in place...incl at least half of the tank and speed at least 110kmh);

the trap here is the fact that even with nox sensor delete and even with catalyst physically removed you still have the msd80 calculating the clogging and when it reaches a critical value (not sure if it is 3000mg or more...) it reports 30e9 error and stops stratified; one thing which I tested was an encoding of "virtually new" nox catalyst in ista...which than leads msd80 to reset clogging value...but it is always only part time solution....so I wonder how the tuners stop msd80 calculating catalyst clogging without an impact on all other linked processes and algorithms...
See my last post!
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      10-13-2019, 07:40 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_460cs View Post
Please don't use loctiite of any type!

Taking out the old sensors requires use of a small propane blow torch and lots of wd40 + plenty of patience !! as they are seized in place and corroded..
This is what BMW TIS says:

Installation:

If an oxygen sensor is reused, only apply a thin and uniform coat of Never Seez Compound (refer to BMW Parts Service) to thread.

The part of the oxygen monitoring sensor which projects into the exhaust system branch (sensor ceramic) must not be cleaned or come into contact with lubricant.
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      10-13-2019, 07:44 AM   #110
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With spark plugs, the thread is the ground, you don't want to isolate that, so that's why they argue what to use and what to not use. (electric conductivity).

Ok then, will just put the probe in as is.
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