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      03-22-2015, 05:38 AM   #89
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Top mount is twin scroll so you have better spool compaired to butom mount!
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      03-22-2015, 01:07 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Aridk View Post
Top mount is twin scroll so you have better spool compaired to butom mount!
actually no, if comparing to a bottom mount Fftech kit then yes. A Motiv bottom mount will out spool this without trying (it spools a bit faster than 5862) and that is without a hardly any tweaks. The Motiv is a large turbo 3586 (750 kit) also.
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      03-22-2015, 01:13 PM   #91
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Let's also not forget there is a motiv 900 kit lol! Jmars is in the 850 range if I am not mistaken.
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      03-22-2015, 01:16 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 135Pats View Post
Sammy? Can't recall if he ended up sticking with the VTT STG3s
stage 3, talk to him regularly
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      03-22-2015, 01:19 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abacus38 View Post
Well I guess we're going to have to wait till someone with deep pockets shows up to experiment. I know the injection windows gets kinda slim in the upper rpms but I believe it can be done. It has been done on other platforms already (BRZ/FRS) we just have to find somebody brave enough to do it.
I am replacing my motor soon and will gladly try to blow it lol!
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      03-22-2015, 02:02 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robc1976 View Post
actually no, if comparing to a bottom mount Fftech kit then yes. A Motiv bottom mount will out spool this without trying (it spools a bit faster than 5862) and that is without a hardly any tweaks. The Motiv is a large turbo 3586 (750 kit) also.
That comparison was terrible. Everything was different from turbo to gearing which are all MAJOR factors in spool. Once I get the rest of the .DRF of the runs I'll post up the graphs that show the whole tq curve. It was outspooling the Motiv 900 kit and they are using the FP6466 which is a little smaller turbo.

The 5862 is a terribly matched turbo in itself which is why hardly no one uses it.
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      03-22-2015, 02:05 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000GT MR
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Convert
Quote:
Originally Posted by idratherbesurfing
I wish we could take this exact car and put a Fftech bottom mount kit on with the same turbo and see the difference in results and see which one is truly better. Because I was talked into getting a bottom mount turbo but this set up no doubt performs insane
Bottom mount will generate less under hood heat. Shorter piping equals less surface area to radiate heat from.
Good point, which makes the motiv kit more ideal for circuit racing. For half mile and drags I'm liking that fftec kit. I'm sure the VM will be equal to. I just don't want to push my engine that hard. This kinda goes back to my original thought of how well the vff900 would perform when pushed. That kit might be the best of both worlds
We shall find out as I get closer to having it tuned and then swap the hardware to the Motiv kit. The plan so far is to create a good tune with the fftec kit, dyno, swap hardware and leave the tune alone, dyno, compare, and then do final tweaking on the Motiv kit and dyno again.
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      03-22-2015, 02:10 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastgti69 View Post
No difference in bottom VS top. This graph and dyno proves it. Go line it up with Motiv graphs and you'll see. There is no magic in this kit nor the Motiv kit. All will perform within the same region of specs.
This +1
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      03-22-2015, 02:34 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR2 Josh View Post
That comparison was terrible. Everything was different from turbo to gearing which are all MAJOR factors in spool. Once I get the rest of the .DRF of the runs I'll post up the graphs that show the whole tq curve. It was outspooling the Motiv 900 kit and they are using the FP6466 which is a little smaller turbo.

The 5862 is a terribly matched turbo in itself which is why hardly no one uses it.
I hear you. Let's look at your dyno chart and compare to a supposedly quicker spooling motiv dyno.
First up is the current dyno record holder, this is just the short dyno showing spoolup.



and this chart is from the latest motiv 750 kit, which uses a smaller and supposedly 'faster spooling' turbo;



Let's compare!
At 4500 rpm they both make approx 650 TQ. If you go down in the rpm range to highlight spoolup you can see the difference growing.

MR2Josh's car reaches 500 TQ just below 4000 rpm
Motive 750 reaches 500TQ at 4100 rpm.

MR2Josh at 3500rpm makes 375TQ
Motiv 750 at 3500rpm makes 330 to 345 TQ

MR2Josh at 3000rpm makes 280 TQ
Motiv 750 at 3000 rpm makes just 230 to 250 TQ.

The results are clear, MR2Josh has better spoolup which translates into better street manners and better driveability.

Do we even need to compare top end? HA!

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      03-22-2015, 03:10 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W. View Post
I hear you. Let's look at your dyno chart and compare to a supposedly quicker spooling motiv dyno.
First up is the current dyno record holder, this is just the short dyno showing spoolup.



and this chart is from the latest motiv 750 kit, which uses a smaller and supposedly 'faster spooling' turbo;



Let's compare!
At 4500 rpm they both make approx 650 TQ. If you go down in the rpm range to highlight spoolup you can see the difference growing.

MR2Josh's car reaches 500 TQ just below 4000 rpm
Motive 750 reaches 500TQ at 4100 rpm.

MR2Josh at 3500rpm makes 375TQ
Motiv 750 at 3500rpm makes 330 to 345 TQ

MR2Josh at 3000rpm makes 280 TQ
Motiv 750 at 3000 rpm makes just 230 to 250 TQ.

The results are clear, MR2Josh has better spoolup which translates into better street manners and better driveability.

Do we even need to compare top end? HA!

Awesome! You can also see the plateau at 4000-4300rpm too where boost was held off then started to ramp in to get around the limp mode we were getting.
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      03-22-2015, 08:59 PM   #99
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Yeah I always wonder why people were sticking 58mm turbos on this car lol. That's the same turbo the b18 guys are using. To me the smallest turbo you should run is a 64mm...maybe a 62 if you want a quicker spool up.
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      03-22-2015, 11:43 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR2 Josh View Post
Awesome! You can also see the plateau at 4000-4300rpm too where boost was held off then started to ramp in to get around the limp mode we were getting.
What was this 750 kit on, was it on josh car?
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      03-22-2015, 11:45 PM   #101
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Jake hasn't even shown what a MOTIV 900 kit can do, just wait.
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      03-22-2015, 11:47 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W. View Post
I hear you. Let's look at your dyno chart and compare to a supposedly quicker spooling motiv dyno.
First up is the current dyno record holder, this is just the short dyno showing spoolup.



and this chart is from the latest motiv 750 kit, which uses a smaller and supposedly 'faster spooling' turbo;



Let's compare!
At 4500 rpm they both make approx 650 TQ. If you go down in the rpm range to highlight spoolup you can see the difference growing.

MR2Josh's car reaches 500 TQ just below 4000 rpm
Motive 750 reaches 500TQ at 4100 rpm.

MR2Josh at 3500rpm makes 375TQ
Motiv 750 at 3500rpm makes 330 to 345 TQ

MR2Josh at 3000rpm makes 280 TQ
Motiv 750 at 3000 rpm makes just 230 to 250 TQ.

The results are clear, MR2Josh has better spoolup which translates into better street manners and better driveability.

Do we even need to compare top end? HA!

So basically this shows a single scroll spooling as much as a twin scroll basically.
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      03-22-2015, 11:48 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Convert View Post
We shall find out as I get closer to having it tuned and then swap the hardware to the Motiv kit. The plan so far is to create a good tune with the fftec kit, dyno, swap hardware and leave the tune alone, dyno, compare, and then do final tweaking on the Motiv kit and dyno again.
Awesome can't wait to see what happens !
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      03-23-2015, 01:28 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robc1976
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W. View Post
I hear you. Let's look at your dyno chart and compare to a supposedly quicker spooling motiv dyno.
First up is the current dyno record holder, this is just the short dyno showing spoolup.



and this chart is from the latest motiv 750 kit, which uses a smaller and supposedly 'faster spooling' turbo;



Let's compare!
At 4500 rpm they both make approx 650 TQ. If you go down in the rpm range to highlight spoolup you can see the difference growing.

MR2Josh's car reaches 500 TQ just below 4000 rpm
Motive 750 reaches 500TQ at 4100 rpm.

MR2Josh at 3500rpm makes 375TQ
Motiv 750 at 3500rpm makes 330 to 345 TQ

MR2Josh at 3000rpm makes 280 TQ
Motiv 750 at 3000 rpm makes just 230 to 250 TQ.

The results are clear, MR2Josh has better spoolup which translates into better street manners and better driveability.

Do we even need to compare top end? HA!

So basically this shows a single scroll spooling as much as a twin scroll basically.
It's showing that a bigger more capable turbo with longer tubing is out spooling a smaller turbo that is claimed to be a less laggy.

There is not a single kit out there that has been pushed to its limits and I know what jake has pushed the 900 to.

A few things to think about.
1. Not a single twin scroll for this platform is built as a true twin scroll. A true twin scroll matches cylinder pulse timing. So cyl 1,3,5 and 2,4,6 would be combined (that was an example not necessarily true)

2. The log style manifold is very turbulent and cylinders can be choked by one another. They also tend to have more back pressure.
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      03-23-2015, 01:37 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000GT MR View Post
It's showing that a bigger more capable turbo with longer tubing is out spooling a smaller turbo that is claimed to be a less laggy.

There is not a single kit out there that has been pushed to its limits and I know what jake has pushed the 900 to.

A few things to think about.
1. Not a single twin scroll for this platform is built as a true twin scroll. A true twin scroll matches cylinder pulse timing. So cyl 1,3,5 and 2,4,6 would be combined (that was an example not necessarily true)

2. The log style manifold is very turbulent and cylinders can be choked by one another. They also tend to have more back pressure.
Where they both tested on same car, same conditions with same tuning? I know for a fact jakes 900 kit has not been pushed, I talk to Jake daily.
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      03-23-2015, 02:42 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robc1976
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000GT MR View Post
It's showing that a bigger more capable turbo with longer tubing is out spooling a smaller turbo that is claimed to be a less laggy.

There is not a single kit out there that has been pushed to its limits and I know what jake has pushed the 900 to.

A few things to think about.
1. Not a single twin scroll for this platform is built as a true twin scroll. A true twin scroll matches cylinder pulse timing. So cyl 1,3,5 and 2,4,6 would be combined (that was an example not necessarily true)

2. The log style manifold is very turbulent and cylinders can be choked by one another. They also tend to have more back pressure.
Where they both tested on same car, same conditions with same tuning? I know for a fact jakes 900 kit has not been pushed, I talk to Jake daily.
Conditions are negligible in the case. Tuning, you obviously tune for fastest spool and the most power under the curve that you can no matter what kit is installed.
I didn't say his kit was pushed, I just said I know what he has pushed it to, that isn't quite publicised.
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      03-23-2015, 09:25 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000GT MR View Post
Conditions are negligible in the case. Tuning, you obviously tune for fastest spool and the most power under the curve that you can no matter what kit is installed.
I didn't say his kit was pushed, I just said I know what he has pushed it to, that isn't quite publicised.
Jake worked a lot of magic with josh's car, that same magic would have to be put into a 750 or 900 kit for a fair comparison is all I am saying. I know my car sppols a lot faster than it used to...actually 500rpm faster just from a simple backend flash. I have seen fftechs spool like crap but obviously can be made to spool great. Also, tuning and tweaks ect have just started on the Motiv. I am not trying to take anything away from josh (I talk to him on Facebook, he is a great guy). Just saying both turbos have to be tuned correctly. Obviously this fftech is lol!
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      03-23-2015, 09:47 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robc1976
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000GT MR View Post
Conditions are negligible in the case. Tuning, you obviously tune for fastest spool and the most power under the curve that you can no matter what kit is installed.
I didn't say his kit was pushed, I just said I know what he has pushed it to, that isn't quite publicised.
Jake worked a lot of magic with josh's car, that same magic would have to be put into a 750 or 900 kit for a fair comparison is all I am saying. I know my car sppols a lot faster than it used to...actually 500rpm faster just from a simple backend flash. I have seen fftechs spool like crap but obviously can be made to spool great. Also, tuning and tweaks ect have just started on the Motiv. I am not trying to take anything away from josh (I talk to him on Facebook, he is a great guy). Just saying both turbos have to be tuned correctly. Obviously this fftech is lol!
I'm eager to see this magic on a motiv kit then. To say fftec kits spool like crap is a very bold statement. No one has really tuned one for max spool and power. I think i had the most of any of the vff900 's. @bme30 check out his spool with the 6466 on the vff900, to say that is crap is an inaccurate statement . Mine was tuned around traction so I wasn't really going for the fastest spool. Never really needed full boost at 3500rpm in a race
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      03-23-2015, 12:07 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000GT MR View Post
I'm eager to see this magic on a motiv kit then. To say fftec kits spool like crap is a very bold statement. No one has really tuned one for max spool and power. I think i had the most of any of the vff900 's. @bme30 check out his spool with the 6466 on the vff900, to say that is crap is an inaccurate statement . Mine was tuned around traction so I wasn't really going for the fastest spool. Never really needed full boost at 3500rpm in a race
not crap, just laggy...but to be expected for a larger turbo. Fftech has been out longer and been tuning longer, have to give motiv a chance. Note I didn't offend you man...you know that was not the intention lol!
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      03-23-2015, 12:08 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robc1976 View Post
Jake worked a lot of magic with josh's car, that same magic would have to be put into a 750 or 900 kit for a fair comparison is all I am saying. I know my car sppols a lot faster than it used to...actually 500rpm faster just from a simple backend flash. I have seen fftechs spool like crap but obviously can be made to spool great. Also, tuning and tweaks ect have just started on the Motiv. I am not trying to take anything away from josh (I talk to him on Facebook, he is a great guy). Just saying both turbos have to be tuned correctly. Obviously this fftech is lol!
Jake didn't tune my car. Chad at MKC did. Jake did give some very helpful information though but chad was the man behind the laptop. Boost was progressively ramped in to get around s limp mode which hurt spool on my car at that level too. The lower HP pulls I was seeing full boost around 300rpm sooner. The tune is everything no matter the car and no matter what power you're going for. I always tell people, it doesn't matter what parts you buy and have on the car, in the end the tune is what makes or breaks (literally) a setup.

The differences are negligible though. No one will actually feel the difference in spool on the street. I'm not saying that the Motiv kit is junk or anything, it's a beautiful piece of quality work. Just that log manifolds are not ideal. 90* bends are bad for flow and cause turbulence. This has been proven time and again. (Hence why you see any type of race car with tubular manifolds).

In the end both kits perform extremely well and it's purely the end users choice on what they want and the end result with leave the customer happy with whatever they choose. I wanted top mount and tubular.

Also, the 861 I made is easily beatable. Hell I could throw the car back on the dyno right now and beat it in one single pull. I said from the beginning that I will not go over 36psi. I don't doubt that 900+ is possible. I just worry about the open deck/block shift and what the big end of the rods are doing under that stress. (Becoming ovate lol) we made 6 pulls over 800 and every one I was waiting for it to let go. Right after it made a clean pull at 861 I go we're done. My main goal was see what it did at a max of 36psi and then enjoy it all spring/summer/fall and then see where it's at and go from there. I bought this car to enjoy all the time and not have it down 90% of the time. I make personal goals because in the end having the most power is nothing more than bragging rights on paper.
__________________
-E92 335i: Montego blue/saddle brown, FFTEC TM 6466, Haltech PS1k EMS, Motiv PI-1000, Fuel-It Hulk stg3+, Cobb AP, VRSF IC, 4" exhaust, Clutchmasters fx850, msport front, Akrym CF lip, M3 sides, mtech rear, cf diffuser, csl cf wing, DPE SL5's **N54 Record holder 861whp@36psi** (click)
-'93 MR2: tons of mods, all fab work, assembly, and tuning done by me. 675whp@24psi, 40psi unknown (800+whp), 900+whp to come. Dyno vid

Last edited by MR2 Josh; 03-23-2015 at 08:08 PM..
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