[Paddles]

As I have previously stated it is my intention within the next couple of weeks to get myself a 330d M Sport, saloon auto.either '56' or more realistically '06' The prices at the stealers range from 26k to 30k. Mindful of the fact through drive the deal I can get one to my spec brand new for 32k then 26k would seem to be more of a reflection of the true value.

I've not bought a vehicle at this price before and my question is how much margin do the stealers have for me eat in to, or in other words how low can I offer on say a 27k car. I know they are a business and need to make a profit, but if I'm not firm with my offer then I could well be paying 2k more than I have to. It is coming up to a quiet time of year for them after the September rush, and I am quite prepared to walk out of the showroom if I think I'm not getting the best price.

I know they will sometimes try and confuse the issue with the part ex, I know what it's worth trade and they will have a chance to match it or forget and I'll trade it elsewhere.

As someone else here has said, we just dont get enough practice at this sort of thing, and we are negotiating with someone who does it for a living, and holds all the cards. Any advice appreciated.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by striaght.six

As I have previously stated it is my intention within the next couple of weeks to get myself a 330d M Sport, saloon auto.either '56' or more realistically '06' The prices at the stealers range from 26k to 30k. Mindful of the fact through drive the deal I can get one to my spec brand new for 32k then 26k would seem to be more of a reflection of the true value.

I've not bought a vehicle at this price before and my question is how much margin do the stealers have for me eat in to, or in other words how low can I offer on say a 27k car. I know they are a business and need to make a profit, but if I'm not firm with my offer then I could well be paying 2k more than I have to. It is coming up to a quiet time of year for them after the September rush, and I am quite prepared to walk out of the showroom if I think I'm not getting the best price.

I know they will sometimes try and confuse the issue with the part ex, I know what it's worth trade and they will have a chance to match it or forget and I'll trade it elsewhere.

As someone else here has said, we just dont get enough practice at this sort of thing, and we are negotiating with someone who does it for a living, and holds all the cards. Any advice appreciated.

Hi Six, what is the car your part exing?

i think you will need to visit many stealers and play them Against each other to get the best deal. Work hard and you will get the result you want


Carlos

[Paddles]

The only problem there is when I narrow down my spec and colour there is ony a handful in the country. I'm selling a E46 330i sport touring auto, sliver with black leather.

[dxb335d]

how come there is only a handful in the country? what spec and colour are you wanting buddY?


cARLOS

[NFS]

Originally Posted by striaght.six

As I have previously stated it is my intention within the next couple of weeks to get myself a 330d M Sport, saloon auto.either '56' or more realistically '06' The prices at the stealers range from 26k to 30k. Mindful of the fact through drive the deal I can get one to my spec brand new for 32k then 26k would seem to be more of a reflection of the true value.

I've not bought a vehicle at this price before and my question is how much margin do the stealers have for me eat in to, or in other words how low can I offer on say a 27k car. I know they are a business and need to make a profit, but if I'm not firm with my offer then I could well be paying 2k more than I have to. It is coming up to a quiet time of year for them after the September rush, and I am quite prepared to walk out of the showroom if I think I'm not getting the best price.

I know they will sometimes try and confuse the issue with the part ex, I know what it's worth trade and they will have a chance to match it or forget and I'll trade it elsewhere.

As someone else here has said, we just dont get enough practice at this sort of thing, and we are negotiating with someone who does it for a living, and holds all the cards. Any advice appreciated.

I think most of us are still learning when it comes to buying, but I've found that it really pays to do your research.

In that case I think you are half way there.

As I see it you've got 3 factors:

1. Part Ex
2. Finance
3. Discount

The dealer has a cut to make and maybe some of the others can say what that would be. However, my experience is that he will be 'moving' his margin around within the above ... so my main advice would be to box off the issues one at a time.

1. Sort the part-x price out. So long as you are getting at least book value you should be happy and theaa.com have a good online valuation tool to help you determine this.

Anyone who gets significantly more than book will be losing out elsewhere in the deal. So don't sweat it .. just get what it's worth and park the issue.

Don't accept less - just walk away and find another dealer.

If you want more, sell it privately ... which is what I intend to do with my 330i when I change it.

2. Finance ... not sure if this is part of the equation for you or not. Either way, get quotes before you go in and make the stealer talk about interest rates NOT monthly payments.

One tactic they use is to ask what you have each month, then provide an offer for finance which shows that you can't afford the car you want. Then they try to sell you a lower spec car within your limit, hoping that people will be convinced that it's more affordable even though the deal sucks.

Don't be fooled by the nice surroundings and friendly chat. The dealer will be trying to take as much money off you as possible and you need to be aware of that. Do not trust them an inch.

3. Discount .. well you already know what drive the deal can do on a new car. It's harder to get a discount on used, because it's not 'new business' to the dealer. Sometimes they won't budge at all - I looked at a 6 month old 330i
in the same spec as mine and the dealer wouldn't entertain any money off.

My new one was actually cheaper.

As a guide I'd look at theaa.com valuations for the vehicle you want to buy. Never pay more than that and assume that the dealers cut is the difference between the selling price and the trade in. If you are trading in then the dealer has a second profit margin there and can haggle more on the new car price.

330d auto msport:

Nearest mileage available 10,000 
Price when new £33,185 
Retail value   
Garage/retailer's selling price £28,000 
Trade-in values   
Clean Condition £25,800 
Average Condition £24,500 
Below Average Condition £22,800

Drive the deal offer the car new for £29.041.07 (but you should add £1250 to that unless you are prepared to pay for finance at 9.5%)

[creepy coupe]

Hi Six
I was in the same boat just before buying mine, the dealers were asking less than a grand under new prices for a 6 month old car with anything from 4 to 6k clocked up.

I managed a £4k discount on a new car, because the dealer had it sitting in their showroom, If I were you I'd email a dozen dealers telling them what you want and ask if they have new stock.

Good luck.

[Paddles]

Thanks for the very comprehensive reply needforspeed. I already have the funds standing buy so no haggling over finance required . I will accept trade book value for my car, (despite £600 worth of tyres and brakes in the last two months) But as an example Coopers Reading have a 56 plate 330d auto leather 7k miles £26000 screen price, glass's retail guide at £28500. Other stealers have very slightly higher spec cars up for £30000, assuiming they all buy them for about the same price as ex bmw management cars someone is making a killing, or at least trying to.

[booforty]

Good post NFS - do you want to buy my next car for me?

[NFS]

Originally Posted by striaght.six

Thanks for the very comprehensive reply needforspeed. I already have the funds standing buy so no haggling over finance required . I will accept trade book value for my car, (despite £600 worth of tyres and brakes in the last two months) But as an example Coopers Reading have a 56 plate 330d auto leather 7k miles £26000 screen price, glass's retail guide at £28500. Other stealers have very slightly higher spec cars up for £30000, assuiming they all buy them for about the same price as ex bmw management cars someone is making a killing, or at least trying to.

The problem is that the dealers are holding the nearly new prices artificially high. They only really make sense when compared to the list prices and seem to ignore the very large discounts brokers can get on BMW's right now.

You can pretty much buy new for the equivalent of the sticker price on the majority of nearly new BMW's. Unfortunately, the dealers sticker price also influences the price for private sales.

When I bought the 330i I was originally looking for nearly new and because of this I ended up getting a new one.

My 530d was second hand an in that instance I shopped around for one that was offered at the lower end of the range of sticker prices reasoning that I would have less of a battle on my hands with that one. I only got £500 and an aux input fitting (around £150) off the price, but since it was lowish anyway that was fine.

If you look at the numbers in my original post the dealer would make £3500 if he sold at £28,000.

The £ 26K sticker car is sensible place to start - the dealer is still making £1500 on that one.

I also suspect that sometimes the dealer takes a hit on a new car and finds himself with a used model that owes him too much profit. I think that's why you see car's up a £30K, they probably paid way to much at trade in to keep a new car buyer sweet.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by beauforty

Good post NFS - do you want to buy my next car for me?

I'd love to actually ... I find it really interesting ...

I'd only bought runarounds from little secondhand 'honest john' type dealers in the past, where you feel obliged to haggle.

But with the BMW dealers it almost feels rude, the surroundings are so nice and the cappucino is so frothy

That's when they go in for the kill though. These guys want to mug you and they smile while the do it. You can't trust a word they say, so before you even start you have to get your game plan mapped out.

I'm looking at a car for my sister in law at the moment. She wants a little Seat Ibiza and the dealers are currently doing a 0% finance deal on them.

They flat out refused any discount saying that the 0% was only available at the list price. What she didn't realise is that this was disguising the fact that it wasn't really a 0% deal. She could easily get £800 off the purchase price, which meant the cost of the deal was equivalent to about 6% apr.

She's happy now because drive the deal will offer the discount AND the 0% finance.

[booforty]

I think you are right, its an art form, but if you do your research you will always find a deal that's right for you

[hmi1750]

I got my 330d MSport with Xenons, Auto, Leather (no other options) for under £25k. It had 11400miles on the clock and had just been reduced in price by the dealer as I guess they needed to make up sales etc... i was originally looking at 325d's but these were expensive for what thy were, though newer (mine is an 06 car).

Best is to haggle hard, as £25k was my budget I didn't even bother looking for high spec cars, as even after haggling, none were in reach (none with average mileage that is). I think I was fairly lucky with my car, but the dealer offered no further discounts and I had to change that weekend so I just went for it.

Good luck with the sale, and if you want a few options then do look at new cars with much better discounts then used.

[Paddles]

I'm sure there are some private/corporate buyers who sell their cars after a year, but by far the vast majority of nearly new cars are ex bmw employee short term lease cars. BMW dont do this because they want to be kind to their staff, they do it because the whole deal makes very good commercial and financial sense, with an endless supply of nearly new cars all the time. I am only guessing but I imagine the book value to BMW, ie the cost to the dealers is in the low to mid 20k's. But of course with a desirable model that if they don't sell to me with my derisory offer, they will sell to someone else, perhaps not as clued up. The biggest factors I think I have in my favour in negotiation are the time of year, and I am in no rush, although I would like my E90 today.

The used car price guides get their infomation from what prices the cars are advertised for on the forecourts and the prices at auction. And you are right the BMW franchises can hold the prices artificially high.

This will be a privately funded and run car for me and the gap between the mid 20's and the low 30's is more than I am prepared to stretch to, sadly I might add.

[peterg1965]

I am with you NFS, I like the buying process and do a lot of research to get the best deal possible within constraints. Agree with all your well made points.

A few of my 'experiences' which may (or may not help).

I purchased a brand new Golf V5 (Sep 2001) through Drive the Deal. It was the easiest purchase I have every made, I paid the £500 deposit (it was a cash deal - I actually had a personal loan) and once the deposit was paid I dealt with the supplying dealer in toto (Alan Day in North London). It was the cheapest price available for a Golf V5 in the UK at the time for a UK car. The reason it was so easy was that I didnt have a part exchange. I would do this again in the future provided I didnt have a p/x and had the cash available.

I purchased an E60 530i SE in Jan 04. It was a three month old ex BMW management car. Found by my local dealer (Bateman BMW in the South Lakes) and I paid £29500 for it (List was £38K). I know the dealer makes between £1500 - £2000 on BMW management cars, they told me and were frank and open about it. This is easy money for them, all cars are held centrally (Thorne I think) and the database of available cars is accessed by the dealership network.

My E91 320d M Sport was purchased new, same dealer, with a £2K discount about 7% off I think (£27,790) in Sep 06. I know I could have done better but I had a part ex (Mondeo ST) and the dealership had the Mondeo underwritten by one of their local traders for the exact money I wanted. I sold the E91 back to the dealer in May this year. 12K on the clock and they paid me £21.5K, they then had it on the forecourt for £24995, I know you could get a brand new one for this price. It sold very quickly although my dealer friend would not tell me for how much. I would assume they made at the £2K profit once the car was prepped and taxed.

I ordered my latest car E92 33d M Sport in June after much debate/research/discussion (see my previous threads for the tale of woe!) and I considered new and nearly new ex BMW management cars. There are big (ish) saving to be had on used cars but again I was thwarted by lack of choice of BMW stock cars and the fact that I was committed to one dealer (they had £2500 of my money from the E91 and I was 'over a barrel'). If I hadnt had to go with them the choice at other dealerships, principally the larger chains (Synter/Stratstone) was good and there were some relative bargains to be had. However, because I was buying on finance the new option worked out cheaper because of the higher residual values.

Straight Six, moral of these tales, do your homework and explore every option (inc finance deals avalaible). No doubt us lot on here would be happy to pass comment on any deal you are offered before you commit.

[Paddles]

hmi, when did you buy your car and what dealer was it ?

[mjh93sa]

The sales guy I've been dealing with suggested they were looking at a 3k markup on my trade-in. 1k allowance for any prep work, and 2k for profit (about 17%).

As it happens a guy who's retiring from work is taking it instead so they don't get the chance to make a second profit on the car (having supplied to me four years ago).

[Art Man]

When I was in the trade, the manufacturers use to have “closed” auctions, were only the franchised dealers came along and bid. Today I believe a list is sent around or the dealers contact BMW to see what they got. Although there are still closed auctions, run by finance houses and car rental companies, to which dealers are invited. Ex BMW cars tend to state VAT Qualifying.

NFS is right that management cars are a source for nearly new vehicles to the dealership, normally disposed off when 6 months old or 6000 miles (it does vary with different manufacturers), but always sold at a profit by the manufacturer to the dealer, because the employees pay a rental and have to return the vehicle in “forecourt condition”. Some manufacturers allow their staff to pick anything from their range, others restrict the choice by grade, but generally staff cannot pick newly launched models for at least 6 months, maybe longer depending upon customer demand. The staff can get real bargains; I heard that Mercedes employees could get a new S Class every six months for about £350~400 a month!

Margins on 2nd-hand cars is usually better than new (I think new is about 10% to 12%, it’s changed a bit since I was involved). I would expect something around 20% mark on 2nd-hand. BMW dealers rarely have anything older than 3 years on the forecourt, so warranty covers any mechanical issues. I think £1000 for prep is a little high; that’s 10 hours labour (although they do have to account for VAT in their margin).

The main difference between 2nd-hand and new, is that 2nd-hand has a shelf life. If it isn’t sold within 60 days, it’s moved on, so they are more likely to deal on a car nearing its 60 days, than one just on the forecourt.

Although trade-in and price is important, what you need to consider is the “cost to change” i.e. how much more you need to pay for your next car, it’s the easiest way of comparing deals between different dealers.
To get a valuation of a car, I’ve use Glass's Guide (www.glass.co.uk), which although they charge (£3.50), allows you to use the vehicle’s registration number to identify the correct model and 2nd-hand value.

[hmi1750]

From Park Lane a couple of months ago.

It was the cheapest on the Approved site, and I got it the day after the price drop, so wasn't a bad deal I think.

[hmi1750]

Keep an eye out, and don't rush it. Also make sure the spec is what you want. So when looking at used have a list of essential options, mine were Xenons mainly.

[andy69]

Originally Posted by needforspeed

I think most of us are still learning when it comes to buying, but I've found that it really pays to do your research.

In that case I think you are half way there.

As I see it you've got 3 factors:

1. Part Ex
2. Finance
3. Discount

The dealer has a cut to make and maybe some of the others can say what that would be. However, my experience is that he will be 'moving' his margin around within the above ... so my main advice would be to box off the issues one at a time.

1. Sort the part-x price out. So long as you are getting at least book value you should be happy and theaa.com have a good online valuation tool to help you determine this.

Anyone who gets significantly more than book will be losing out elsewhere in the deal. So don't sweat it .. just get what it's worth and park the issue.

Don't accept less - just walk away and find another dealer.

If you want more, sell it privately ... which is what I intend to do with my 330i when I change it.

2. Finance ... not sure if this is part of the equation for you or not. Either way, get quotes before you go in and make the stealer talk about interest rates NOT monthly payments.

One tactic they use is to ask what you have each month, then provide an offer for finance which shows that you can't afford the car you want. Then they try to sell you a lower spec car within your limit, hoping that people will be convinced that it's more affordable even though the deal sucks.

Don't be fooled by the nice surroundings and friendly chat. The dealer will be trying to take as much money off you as possible and you need to be aware of that. Do not trust them an inch.

3. Discount .. well you already know what drive the deal can do on a new car. It's harder to get a discount on used, because it's not 'new business' to the dealer. Sometimes they won't budge at all - I looked at a 6 month old 330i
in the same spec as mine and the dealer wouldn't entertain any money off.

My new one was actually cheaper.

As a guide I'd look at theaa.com valuations for the vehicle you want to buy. Never pay more than that and assume that the dealers cut is the difference between the selling price and the trade in. If you are trading in then the dealer has a second profit margin there and can haggle more on the new car price.

330d auto msport:

Nearest mileage available 10,000 
Price when new £33,185 
Retail value   
Garage/retailer's selling price £28,000 
Trade-in values   
Clean Condition £25,800 
Average Condition £24,500 
Below Average Condition £22,800

Drive the deal offer the car new for £29.041.07 (but you should add £1250 to that unless you are prepared to pay for finance at 9.5%)

Do you think I got screwed on mine then ? (spec below) I paid 38.5k euros (about 26k sterling). I did have a good look round and believe me Spain isnt cheap anymore and I couldnt find anything that much cheaper. There was a white 320d M sport Coupe but that was without leather and Nav for 41k euros. I probably could have got a 330d if i waited a bit for the same price, but without toys, but the tyre problems aside I think it is a great car although I am envious of you lot with your 330 and 335 d's... They are building a new Beemer garage 2 minutes from where I live so who knows...

[Art Man]

Originally Posted by andy69

Do you think I got screwed on mine then ? (spec below) I paid 38.5k euros (about 26k sterling). I did have a good look round and believe me Spain isnt cheap anymore and I couldnt find anything that much cheaper. There was a white 320d M sport Coupe but that was without leather and Nav for 41k euros. I probably could have got a 330d if i waited a bit for the same price, but without toys, but the tyre problems aside I think it is a great car although I am envious of you lot with your 330 and 335 d's... They are building a new Beemer garage 2 minutes from where I live so who knows...

Different market, different conditions. You can't compare UK against other EU countries, because UK market was always screwed by the large number of company cars, which forced down the 2nd-hand market. But considering the price difference between M and SE, and the extras you have got, it looks like a good deal.

[mjh93sa]

Originally Posted by Art Man

I think £1000 for prep is a little high; that’s 10 hours labour (although they do have to account for VAT in their margin).

He may have set it that high on mine as there is a little ding that needs some bodywork done. It's in a place they can't access from inside so is a drill-pull-weld-paint job, for which the dealer quoted over £600 to do.

I'm happy though as the guy taking the car is paying more than the trade-in allowance the dealer was going to give.