[DefactoM6]

Does anyone have a picture of the OEM E92/E90 M3 swaybar next to the OEM 335 swaybar? Both are 26.5mm, however, the m3 apparently doesn't taper in a place where the OEM one does, and has different bushings. I just would like to make sure that my friend did not accidentally give my tech friend his old 135 swaybar by accident during the suspension install on my car. Thanks!

[nitehawk]

I can snap pics of the m3 ones as I have it handy...
I can take pics of the Oem piece once its of the car next week if you like

[cvc 22349a]

There's comparison pics on this forum or 1addicts.
You are correct: the M3 front roll bar doesn't taper in the middle like the 335/135 bar does. The M3 bar also uses harder rubber bushings with different/aluminum brackets.

[nitehawk]

Here are the M3 front sway pics:

[CALWATERBOY]

Originally Posted by DefactoM6

Does anyone have a picture of the OEM E92/E90 M3 swaybar next to the OEM 335 swaybar? Both are 26.5mm, however, the m3 apparently doesn't taper in a place where the OEM one does, and has different bushings. I just would like to make sure that my friend did not accidentally give my tech friend his old 135 swaybar by accident during the suspension install on my car. Thanks!

Shouldn't the new sway be squeaky clean; old dirty?

"The M3 version is the same diameter as the stock 335i bar, with the exception of one six-inch section in the middle of the bar. The 335i version has a neck-down section that's much smaller in diameter. The M3 bar has no such neck-down."



Are you doing the rear? Of course, LSD is recommended as a prerequisite.

[DefactoM6]

Thanks everyone! The sway came from a friend's e90 M3, so it was just as dirty as the swaybar from his old 135 that I suspected he might have given me. It would appear as if he did indeed give me the M3 swaybar. I did install an m3 rear swaybar at the same time, along with a Wavetrac, M3 subframe bushings, powerflex diff bushings and rear shock mounts, Megan adjustable rear toe arms, upper links and guide rods, M3 front control arm kit, GC street camber plates, and KW Street Comfort coilovers. Full in depth review to come when the car gets it's replacement Pilot Supersports out back (blow out after backing over a rock on a tire that still had 9/32s on it FTL) and an alignment. Needless to say...I think I got all of the supporting mods covered for that front swaybar

[cvc 22349a]

^ wow.. Interested in those KW street comforts and powerflex subframe bushings

[nitehawk]

Originally Posted by DefactoM6

Thanks everyone! The sway came from a friend's e90 M3, so it was just as dirty as the swaybar from his old 135 that I suspected he might have given me. It would appear as if he did indeed give me the M3 swaybar. I did install an m3 rear swaybar at the same time, along with a Wavetrac, M3 subframe bushings, powerflex diff bushings and rear shock mounts, Megan adjustable rear toe arms, upper links and guide rods, M3 front control arm kit, GC street camber plates, and KW Street Comfort coilovers. Full in depth review to come when the car gets it's replacement Pilot Supersports out back (blow out after backing over a rock on a tire that still had 9/32s on it FTL) and an alignment. Needless to say...I think I got all of the supporting mods covered for that front swaybar

Nice! My car is actually at the shop as we speak getting the Wavetrac installed along with M3 front control arms, both M3 bars, subframe bushings and the Megan Racing toe arms.

I opted not to install the upper links and guide rods right now because I understand they provide the least amount of benefit. They may be lighter being aluminum but the OEM stamped steel pieces should be just as stiff. I don't know about the bushings in these two links though, I've heard mixed answers about the M3 ones being stiffer.

Anyway, I'm also interested in your write up for everything I didn't get yet Although, it will be tough differentiating between everything since I'm assuming all parts will be installed at once?

Ps. KW Street Comforts are compatible with GC camber plates huh?

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by cvc 22349a

^ wow.. Interested in those KW street comforts and powerflex subframe bushings

The overall setup is absolutely amazing. I will play around a bit more with the damper adjustment when it's all aligned, but as it sits, it rides significantly smoother than stock, yet it has near zero body roll, is delightfully neutral and tossable, and is SO much more planted at high speed. Not to mention the fact that when you stomp on it, the car just moves forward. No squirming, hopping, squealing. The powerflex diff bushings certainly weren't easy to install, but having driven other e9x M3s with ESS S/Cs, and e9xes with m3 subframe bushings, toe arms, etc...the diff bushings definitely make a difference. And anyone who whines about them being louder than stock must be out of his or her mind, and the whining coming out of his or her mouth is certainly louder than the bushings they complain about. I could hear the stock diff+bushings whine slightly, and I would be surprised if the whine from the bushings is 1 dB louder. I've taken multiple people for rides, including seasoned car guys, and in nearly all cases, even after pointing out any noise, even imitating the noise, they still can't hear it. Bottom line, do them without fear, NVH concerns with those are patently absurd. Also happy to report that my Wavetrac is dead silent...not only does it not thump like others have in the past, there are people who complain with Quaifes and Wavetracs about them making clunking noises when engaging first gear. I have no such issues, just awesome, two tire fire.

Originally Posted by nitehawk

Nice! My car is actually at the shop as we speak getting the Wavetrac installed along with M3 front control arms, both M3 bars, subframe bushings and the Megan Racing toe arms.

I opted not to install the upper links and guide rods right now because I understand they provide the least amount of benefit. They may be lighter being aluminum but the OEM stamped steel pieces should be just as stiff. I don't know about the bushings in these two links though, I've heard mixed answers about the M3 ones being stiffer.

Anyway, I'm also interested in your write up for everything I didn't get yet Although, it will be tough differentiating between everything since I'm assuming all parts will be installed at once?

Ps. KW Street Comforts are compatible with GC camber plates huh?

You're going to love what you have going into the car, what kind of springs/shocks are you planning on running? If I had to suggest anything, I'd suggest doing the diff bushings while you're in there, you might as well do it now, and it certainly makes a difference. The GC camber plates certainly are compatible with the KW Street comforts; they build each plate to suit the application, and since the street comfort uses an OEM style spring, they built it with an OEM spring perch and a KW strut opening (14mm round IIRC). I had not intended on doing camber plates, however, I was told that using the stock OEM mount allows tons of movement and has lots of slop, nullifying many of the gains from the coils, control arms and swaybar, so I went ahead with it.

I'm not actually running the M3 upper links and guide rods...I got the Megans, which are steel, adjustable, and have ball joints. Megan calls the arms "Camber arms" and "trailing arms"; the Camber arms are the upper links; the trailing arms are incorrectly named, as they replace the guide rods; the stock trailing arms remain in place. IMO, the Megan adjustable upper links and guide rods are the way to go; if not for the ball joints and sturdier construction, for the ease of adjustment. Preview of them installed (yes, I know the swaybar is installed backwards, that's what happens when you try to rush in vain to make an impossible deadline, it has since been fixed):

[nitehawk]

Originally Posted by DefactoM6

You're going to love what you have going into the car, what kind of springs/shocks are you planning on running? If I had to suggest anything, I'd suggest doing the diff bushings while you're in there, you might as well do it now, and it certainly makes a difference. The GC camber plates certainly are compatible with the KW Street comforts; they build each plate to suit the application, and since the street comfort uses an OEM style spring, they built it with an OEM spring perch and a KW strut opening (14mm round IIRC). I had not intended on doing camber plates, however, I was told that using the stock OEM mount allows tons of movement and has lots of slop, nullifying many of the gains from the coils, control arms and swaybar, so I went ahead with it.

I'm not actually running the M3 upper links and guide rods...I got the Megans, which are steel, adjustable, and have ball joints. Megan calls the arms "Camber arms" and "trailing arms"; the Camber arms are the upper links; the trailing arms are incorrectly named, as they replace the guide rods; the stock trailing arms remain in place. IMO, the Megan adjustable upper links and guide rods are the way to go; if not for the ball joints and sturdier construction, for the ease of adjustment. Preview of them installed (yes, I know the swaybar is installed backwards, that's what happens when you try to rush in vain to make an impossible deadline, it has since been fixed):

Ahh, that makes sense. I'm going to see how the car tracks with what I have now and maybe upgrade the other two Megan arms later on. They're easy enough to swap out (and gotta save some mods for later to prevent boredom )

As for the diff bushings, I also went for the "wait and see" approach. Based on what you said though, I may be regretting that decision! Luckily, the subframe does not need to be dropped for them to be installed. I guess an aftermarket exhaust system probably creates more booming and vibration than anything.

I'm still on stock spring/shocks. I've been looking to get either
a) HPA Koni SA coilover with swift springs
b) KW Street Comforts or...
c) Wait a while and splurge on something nicer as the Ohlins R&T

I'm glad to hear you're liking the street comforts. I was thinking that the spring rates (286/572) may not be stiff enough after upgrading the subframe bushings. Have you had a chance to track your car with this setup yet?

And I've heard such mixed responses about the LSD clunk noises It really seems to be a hit or miss. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that mine won't have it!

[scflaw]

Guys, i really need your professional opinion since we're on the subject. Should i even bother upgrading from a stock e93 335 bar to a regular e92 M3 coupe F+R Antisway? The E93 is already reinforced but it still seems to lack character in the tight corners. Is it worth the money to get the Regular E92 m3 Sways or should i go for the E93 M3 sways which are supposedly more rigid. I don't want the ride to be too stiff as well, the roads here can be pretty horrific.

[nitehawk]

Originally Posted by scflaw

Guys, i really need your professional opinion since we're on the subject. Should i even bother upgrading from a stock e93 335 bar to a regular e92 M3 coupe F+R Antisway? The E93 is already reinforced but it still seems to lack character in the tight corners. Is it worth the money to get the Regular E92 m3 Sways or should i go for the E93 M3 sways which are supposedly more rigid. I don't want the ride to be too stiff as well, the roads here can be pretty horrific.

If you have an E93, stick with E93 bars. I would only do both front+rear together to sustain the neutral balance BMW intended on their M cars. Assess your whole setup, including your springs/shocks to see if it might get too stiff overall. Just my opinion.

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by nitehawk

Ahh, that makes sense. I'm going to see how the car tracks with what I have now and maybe upgrade the other two Megan arms later on. They're easy enough to swap out (and gotta save some mods for later to prevent boredom )

As for the diff bushings, I also went for the "wait and see" approach. Based on what you said though, I may be regretting that decision! Luckily, the subframe does not need to be dropped for them to be installed. I guess an aftermarket exhaust system probably creates more booming and vibration than anything.

I'm still on stock spring/shocks. I've been looking to get either
a) HPA Koni SA coilover with swift springs
b) KW Street Comforts or...
c) Wait a while and splurge on something nicer as the Ohlins R&T

I'm glad to hear you're liking the street comforts. I was thinking that the spring rates (286/572) may not be stiff enough after upgrading the subframe bushings. Have you had a chance to track your car with this setup yet?

And I've heard such mixed responses about the LSD clunk noises It really seems to be a hit or miss. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that mine won't have it!

I'll be honest, for a while I had planned on doing everything I ultimately did minus camber plates, powerflex bushings, and the Megan upper links and guide rods, and the KW Street Comforts, and using the Ohlins R&T coilovers instead of all of those. I consulted with Orb, who was insanely helpful on the subject and basically acted as the suspension engineer on this project, and he strongly suggested that I stay away from the R&Ts unless I planned on doing different springs (400/800 or the like) and revalving them (don't let anyone tell you otherwise, they'll need it), which I honestly had no intention of doing after buying a $2600 coilover. For a bone stock 335 they work great, however, since I was doing many other things, the balance would've been WAY off, which you can see by plugging the numbers into his handy 335 suspension calculator. In his opinion, the technology in the KW Street Comfort damper is functionally very similar to the Ohlins, while the spring rates are basically Plug 'n Play for a car with M3 bars, bushings and LSD (notice the KW V series spring rates for the M3s are the same). So to have what would effectively be slightly superior to the KWs (R&Ts revalved w/Swift), I'd have to spend more than double what I paid for the SCs, when I could save that money, put it toward many other things in the suspension, and have a dynamically superior vehicle. I honestly never considered the HPA S/A because while they are perfectly nice, it's old damper technology, and I'm pretty sure that they aren't valved for whichever spring they come with, which would be extra $. Didn't make much sense to me to pay more for a product that is inferior on most counts.

I haven't been to the track yet; honestly, I barely drove the car 10 miles before I had that rock-induced blowout. . It still isn't aligned either. I had been planning on taking it to NJMP on Thursday or LRP on Saturday, but given circumstances, that just doesn't seem likely. While I definitely am curious to take it to the track, honestly, that was never my goal with this suspension. I wanted something that would truly be the ultimate street setup, as this is a street car. Something that let me feel every contour of the road through the wheel, tons of feedback through the seat, planted, flat, stable, and neutral on the extremely twisty backroads and the winding, high speed highways on which I spend about 75% of my time, yet riding smoother than stock over rough road, and with little to no increase in NVH. I've had cars in the past with crazy track oriented suspensions which I drove on the street, and they were more ungainly than anything. Being very familiar with friends cars who have taken a more holistic approach to a street suspension (do everything else relatively stiff, use a great damper, go relatively light on springs), has yielded a car that is extremely composed on the track, but is truly brilliant on the street. My car isn't even aligned yet, and only has 10 miles on it, and I can say with absolutely zero hesitation that this goal was achieved 1,000%. It achieves all of the goals I set forth at the beginning, and more.


Jeez, I've gone halfway toward writing my review, lol. I can't really say much more about it till it's aligned and corner balanced :P


PS-The subframe may not NEED to be dropped for diff bushings...but you will really wish you did. Trust me, if you ever plan on doing it, now is the time.

[cvc 22349a]

^ great looking set up! I've been looking at those KW SC's for a couple years; not too many guys have those installed. Linear rate springs v. the V series. Looking forward to a review

[CALWATERBOY]

Originally Posted by scflaw

Guys, i really need your professional opinion since we're on the subject. Should i even bother upgrading from a stock e93 335 bar to a regular e92 M3 coupe F+R Antisway? The E93 is already reinforced but it still seems to lack character in the tight corners. Is it worth the money to get the Regular E92 m3 Sways or should i go for the E93 M3 sways which are supposedly more rigid. I don't want the ride to be too stiff as well, the roads here can be pretty horrific.

Yes to replacement.

No to E92 bars - E93 has its own sway bar spec.

LSD should be installed before rear M3 bar. HUGE diff after sway install.

Do the rear subframe bushings while the subframe's dropped. Inexpensive - big result.

Rough roads sa-moothed w/FSD's. Pre-matched to BMW sport springs.

DIY?

[nitehawk]

Originally Posted by DefactoM6

I'll be honest, for a while I had planned on doing everything I ultimately did minus camber plates, powerflex bushings, and the Megan upper links and guide rods, and the KW Street Comforts, and using the Ohlins R&T coilovers instead of all of those. I consulted with Orb, who was insanely helpful on the subject and basically acted as the suspension engineer on this project, and he strongly suggested that I stay away from the R&Ts unless I planned on doing different springs (400/800 or the like) and revalving them (don't let anyone tell you otherwise, they'll need it), which I honestly had no intention of doing after buying a $2600 coilover. For a bone stock 335 they work great, however, since I was doing many other things, the balance would've been WAY off, which you can see by plugging the numbers into his handy 335 suspension calculator. In his opinion, the technology in the KW Street Comfort damper is functionally very similar to the Ohlins, while the spring rates are basically Plug 'n Play for a car with M3 bars, bushings and LSD (notice the KW V series spring rates for the M3s are the same). So to have what would effectively be slightly superior to the KWs (R&Ts revalved w/Swift), I'd have to spend more than double what I paid for the SCs, when I could save that money, put it toward many other things in the suspension, and have a dynamically superior vehicle. I honestly never considered the HPA S/A because while they are perfectly nice, it's old damper technology, and I'm pretty sure that they aren't valved for whichever spring they come with, which would be extra $. Didn't make much sense to me to pay more for a product that is inferior on most counts.

I haven't been to the track yet; honestly, I barely drove the car 10 miles before I had that rock-induced blowout. . It still isn't aligned either. I had been planning on taking it to NJMP on Thursday or LRP on Saturday, but given circumstances, that just doesn't seem likely. While I definitely am curious to take it to the track, honestly, that was never my goal with this suspension. I wanted something that would truly be the ultimate street setup, as this is a street car. Something that let me feel every contour of the road through the wheel, tons of feedback through the seat, planted, flat, stable, and neutral on the extremely twisty backroads and the winding, high speed highways on which I spend about 75% of my time, yet riding smoother than stock over rough road, and with little to no increase in NVH. I've had cars in the past with crazy track oriented suspensions which I drove on the street, and they were more ungainly than anything. Being very familiar with friends cars who have taken a more holistic approach to a street suspension (do everything else relatively stiff, use a great damper, go relatively light on springs), has yielded a car that is extremely composed on the track, but is truly brilliant on the street. My car isn't even aligned yet, and only has 10 miles on it, and I can say with absolutely zero hesitation that this goal was achieved 1,000%. It achieves all of the goals I set forth at the beginning, and more.


Jeez, I've gone halfway toward writing my review, lol. I can't really say much more about it till it's aligned and corner balanced :P


PS-The subframe may not NEED to be dropped for diff bushings...but you will really wish you did. Trust me, if you ever plan on doing it, now is the time.

Thanks for the incredibly useful post! Going through the same dilemma and having the same goals in mind, that helps alot. I’ve actually spent a significant amount of time reviewing Orb's posts and playing around with his spreadsheet as well. The KWs do yield a balanced ride with m3 bars but I was unsure of how the dampers compared to the Koni’s. With regards to the Ohlins R&T, I spoke with their rep and they may release a damper only option at some point. But as you said, it won't be custom valved to a desired spring rate. If a lower cost system meets the objective you set out for, then great! I may PM you with some questions later on

Ps. I'm kicking myself now for not swapping over the diff bushings. I called all the local Powerflex dealers today and none have them in stock and won't get them in time... wish we had this conversation earlier My mechanic has done the subframe bushing swap dozens of times, but never the diff bushings. How long should it take for someone like that to do these later on?

[cvc 22349a]

^ about 4 hrs to swap all 3 diff bushings. My tech says the rear subframe has to come down a bit.
Wish I would have done them too last year w/sunbframe bushings

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by nitehawk

Thanks for the incredibly useful post! Going through the same dilemma and having the same goals in mind, that helps alot. I’ve actually spent a significant amount of time reviewing Orb's posts and playing around with his spreadsheet as well. The KWs do yield a balanced ride with m3 bars but I was unsure of how the dampers compared to the Koni’s. With regards to the Ohlins R&T, I spoke with their rep and they may release a damper only option at some point. But as you said, it won't be custom valved to a desired spring rate. If a lower cost system meets the objective you set out for, then great! I may PM you with some questions later on

Ps. I'm kicking myself now for not swapping over the diff bushings. I called all the local Powerflex dealers today and none have them in stock and won't get them in time... wish we had this conversation earlier My mechanic has done the subframe bushing swap dozens of times, but never the diff bushings. How long should it take for someone like that to do these later on?

Fire away! Eventually I will have a dedicated review thread lol :P

Try **********s, they got me mine literally next day, and I didn't even ask for them that way. CVC is right, I'd guess about 2-4 hours depending on what kind of bushing press equipment your tech has, not to mention the fact that I would imagine it to be an extremely difficult if not impossible job to do without lowering the diff a fair amount, possibly beyond the limits of the driveshaft and axles. It's definitely the kind of thing that's a no brainer when you're already doing a diff and subframe bushings (most with a diff seem to do the subframe bushings as well), because it's probably 15-20 mins extra on that install, tops.

[nitehawk]

Yeah, I already picked up the car. My mechanic was on a very tight schedule so he had to button everything up. Total dummy move on my part; some of the past comments didn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling about putting the diff bushings on. Oh well, I'll work around it for the time being and focus on coilvers, cambers plates and the remaining rear links

[cvc 22349a]

Originally Posted by nitehawk

Yeah, I already picked up the car. My mechanic was on a very tight schedule so he had to button everything up. Total dummy move on my part; some of the past comments didn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling about putting the diff bushings on. Oh well, I'll work around it for the time being and focus on coilvers, cambers plates and the remaining rear links

You mentioned Ohlins c/o before. I agree with what defactom6 wrote about that c/o; also consider those dampers are supposed to be serviced every couple of years