[phil200tdi]

Union reps should sacrifice their days pay for every day there is a strike. Many of the reps want to up their own status and play hard ball, the workers suffer.

Look at the miners! Don't see many around today...

[JJD]

Originally Posted by Kerr

We are involved.

How many people are stuck at home today because the schools and other services are off today?

If the government agree to keep they great benefits scheme way beyond what is normal for everyone else, who is going to pay for it?

All of us through taxes.

We are all having to take hits through our work and yet these people want to make sure they don't.

We would end up taking a double hit.

Kerr,

My point is this subject has provoked emotive response, a considerable portion of it centred arouind how people are personally inconvienced or how "its not like this in the real world, bunch of lazy bstrds etc."

You may be affected but your not involved. Im not being shitty but it isnt your pension that is being plundered, for that matter its not mine either. In my view they are entiltlied to protest.

If anything the inconvience should serve to remind us how much we all rely upon public services; if they were all lazy shiftless layabbouts as some would suggest then you wouldnt expect to notice much of a difference whether they worked or not.

Its a little disheartening to see the sentiments of so many who are thinking only of their own situation. In my opinion if we go too far down that road we are all shafted.

One last thing to consider is the Government are attempting to snatch from the public sector (lots of people dont care) who here thinks the money grab stops there?

[xenon]

For fuck's sake - it IS my pension that's being plundered, as you say! Did you not read the bits from countless others who agreed that they have taken pay cuts and / or pension reductions in the PRIVATE sector without going on strike or asking their employers to get the money from a magic fucking porridge pot. Did you skip those bits because it doesn't support your argument?

There is not enough money to support the gilt-edged pensions promised years ago for either sector. What good is striking going to do? The goverment going to say it's got the money after all and we were only doing it for a laugh?

Jesus wept.

Originally Posted by JJD

Its a little disheartening to see the sentiments of so many who are thinking only of their own situation. In my opinion if we go too far down that road we are all shafted.

Just like the strikers yesterday.

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by xenon

For fuck's sake - it IS my pension that's being plundered, as you say! Did you not read the bits from countless others who agreed that they have taken pay cuts and / or pension reductions in the PRIVATE sector without going on strike or asking their employers to get the money from a magic fucking porridge pot. Did you skip those bits because it doesn't support your argument?

There is not enough money to support the gilt-edged pensions promised years ago for either sector. What good is striking going to do? The goverment going to say it's got the money after all and we were only doing it for a laugh?

Jesus wept.




Just like the strikers yesterday.

So why are private pensions so crap? Who's to blame? That's who we should be attacking rather than the public sector for trying to hang onto theirs. I'm not trying to be inflammatory I just want to understand why we are in this situation.

[xenon]

Originally Posted by Boyd1963

So why are private pensions so crap? Who's to blame? That's who we should be attacking rather than the public sector for trying to hang onto theirs. I'm not trying to be inflammatory I just want to understand why we are in this situation.

Global recession, Gordon Brown, Euro Zone, Fanny Mae, sub-prime lending, Gordon Brown again. It's global, it's everyone affected.

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by xenon

Global recession, Gordon Brown, Euro Zone, Fanny Mae, sub-prime lending, Gordon Brown again. It's global, it's everyone affected.

OK so my previous employer stopped their final salary pension scheme back in 2005 before any of this. I fear that profit may have been their primary motive.

[xenon]

Perhaps it was, perhaps it was to stay afloat.

Did you go on strike?

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by xenon

Perhaps it was, perhaps it was to stay afloat.

Did you go on strike?

They were the UK's biggest company at the time so I think that staying afloat wasn't a problem .

No we did not go on strike but we weren't very happy about it. I voted with my feet though and got another job on more money to make up for the loss.

I don't think that the public sector strikes over pensions are justified but it does seem very unfair that all of us who didn't cause the credit crunch are having to pay the price.

[creepy coupe]

Originally Posted by Boyd1963

They but it does seem very unfair that all of us who didn't cause the credit crunch are having to pay the price.

Amen.

[xenon]

That's a different argument but it seems that we're stuck with it, apart from the public-sector who seem to believe they're different and should be excused the pain everyone else is enduring.

[rogerxp]

Originally Posted by Boyd1963

So why are private pensions so crap? Who's to blame? That's who we should be attacking rather than the public sector for trying to hang onto theirs. I'm not trying to be inflammatory I just want to understand why we are in this situation.

To be fair this is a good question to which I'll attempt to answer.

Both schemes work completely differently and behave differently with regards investments.


Public
* there no investment risk associated to it as it's funded by tax revenue and therefore Government backed.
* 'historically' the contributions from the Goverment were huge to provide the benefit (things of course changing)
* benefit calculated based upon length of service & salary
* there are escalating benefits included, and spouses pensions (I think), which are VERY expensive options top include

Private
* risk of insurance company collapse (Equitable Life for instance)
* fund value built up purely by physical contributions and investment returns
* stockmarkets over the last 5 years has potentially wiped off up to 30/40% of peoples pension values (these will recover in time; if you have time on your side)
* escalating & spouses benefits are VERY expensive to replicate
* many employers dont even offer a company contribution, let alone have a scheme in place, Stakeholder hoped to address this but was one massive fuck-up
* there isn't the same 'culture' in the private sector to save for pension whereas it's kind of a given in the public so MANY people have woeful pension pots

There is absolutely no confidence in pensions these days, mainly thanks for Government tinkering, which is pretty unfair. People bitch about their pensions going down, well it's not the pension as such, it's the investment fund you chose when you joined (if you had a choice). Proper EDUCATION is what is needed. Investment funds go up and down (just like shares) so it's finding one where youre comfortable with the volatility and risk. If it does go down, keep paying in, in fact put more in, and ride the wave back up (as long as you're not due to retire next month!!!). I love stockmarket crashes - I buy lots of lovely cheap stock that will serve me well in 30 years when I'll be calling upon my pension.

I look after a number of pension schemes but hardly ever write a new regular personal pension plan. Frankly, it's scary, I've no idea what's going to happen in 30/40 years when this generation come to retire and think, mmm, what am I going to live off. One thing I'm sure of there will be bugger all support from whatever Government is in charge at the time. If the Country isn't well and truly fucked before this it'll be curtain time then

Some employers I look after have massive take up in the pension scheme whereas others it's a battle to get anyone into the scheme. It's a 'culture' thing, people are like sheep, if they see others doing something, they want it too. This is in fact one thing we should copy from the public-sector (then again, if private pensions were as great as the public one, everyone would join it).

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by rogerxp

To be fair this is a good question to which I'll attempt to answer.

Both schemes work completely differently and behave differently with regards investments.


Public
* there no investment risk associated to it as it's funded by tax revenue and therefore Government backed.
* 'historically' the contributions from the Goverment were huge to provide the benefit (things of course changing)
* benefit calculated based upon length of service & salary
* there are escalating benefits included, and spouses pensions (I think), which are VERY expensive options top include

Private
* risk of insurance company collapse (Equitable Life for instance)
* fund value built up purely by physical contributions and investment returns
* stockmarkets over the last 5 years has potentially wiped off up to 30/40% of peoples pension values (these will recover in time; if you have time on your side)
* escalating & spouses benefits are VERY expensive to replicate
* many employers dont even offer a company contribution, let alone have a scheme in place, Stakeholder hoped to address this but was one massive fuck-up
* there isn't the same 'culture' in the private sector to save for pension whereas it's kind of a given in the public so MANY people have woeful pension pots

There is absolutely no confidence in pensions these days, mainly thanks for Government tinkering, which is pretty unfair. People bitch about their pensions going down, well it's not the pension as such, it's the investment fund you chose when you joined (if you had a choice). Proper EDUCATION is what is needed. Investment funds go up and down (just like shares) so it's finding one where youre comfortable with the volatility and risk. If it does down, keep paying in, in fact put more in, and ride the wave back up (as long as you're not due to retire next month!!!).

I look after a number of pension schemes but hardly ever write a new regular personal pension plan. Frankly, it's scary, I've no idea what's going to happen in 30/40 years when this generation come to retire and think, mmm, what am I going to live off. One thing I'm sure of there will be bugger all support from whatever Government is in charge at the time.

Thanks Roger for your detailed but clear answer. Do you know where we stand with annuities? Do you definitely still have to buy them or can you now take the money and invest it yourself?

[rogerxp]

Originally Posted by Boyd1963

Thanks Roger for your detailed but clear answer. Do you know where we stand with annuities? Do you definitely still have to buy them or can you now take the money and invest it yourself?

Keep re-reading it Boyd - my post has taken on a life of it's own and keeps being editted .

Mmm, annuities, there's something the public pension escapes scot-free as the pension income simply comes from the pot so interest rates, etc (that affect annuity rates), don't cause any issue. Actually, that's another massive plus point for the public sector.

The earliest you can access your pension is age 55 and the latest was age 70 but this age has recently been scribbled out. You now don't have to buy an annuity at all but can leave the pot where it is if of course you can life of other income.

Annuity rates are currently crap, mainly due to interest rates (and other factors), but they do provide you with a 'guaranteed' income until you die.

You can go down a 'drawdown' option whereas you partially encash your pension pot (with using tax-free cash or income). With an annuity you had to take the TFC and income at the same time. With drawdown you can take bits of each at different times if you want. Keeping your pot inside a pension plan is very tax efficient (free of IHT to start) hence people not liking annuities too much. It's an evolving market at present with new methods and ideas becoming available making pension income options much more flexible. Just a shame most people will have bugger all in their pot to take advantage of it.

[creepy coupe]

I can remember a customer of ours, who was a city investor at the time, walking in our office in 2007. During conversation stated he'd just cashed in his pension fund, because he had no faith in the system. We all thought, what a risk he was taking. How wrong we all were.

[xenon]

Originally Posted by creepy coupe

I can remember a customer of ours, who was a city investor at the time, walking in our office in 2007. During conversation stated he'd just cashed in his pension fund, because he had no faith in the system. We all thought, what a risk he was taking. How wrong we all were.

Cashed it in? You mean he was over retirement age?

[UltraRacer13]

You guys should be counting your blessings daily that you didn't move to the EURO. It would be twice as bad. Suck it up like Ireland, and for you, it will be better in a few years. France is f'ed.

[rogerxp]

Originally Posted by xenon

Cashed it in? You mean he was over retirement age?

...or switched the investment fund to cash???

[xenon]

Originally Posted by rogerxp

...or switched the investment fund to cash???

but kept it in a pension as a cash sum? I suppose that's what he did because you obviously couldn't withdraw it early.

[rogerxp]

Originally Posted by xenon

but kept it in a pension as a cash sum? I suppose that's what he did because you obviously couldn't withdraw it early.

Yup, time it right and it works a treat, time it wrong and you lose out on some of that lovely growth...















...helps if you have a crystal ball too .

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by rogerxp

Keep re-reading it Boyd - my post has taken on a life of it's own and keeps being editted .

Mmm, annuities, there's something the public pension escapes scot-free as the pension income simply comes from the pot so interest rates, etc (that affect annuity rates), don't cause any issue. Actually, that's another massive plus point for the public sector.

The earliest you can access your pension is age 55 and the latest was age 70 but this age has recently been scribbled out. You now don't have to buy an annuity at all but can leave the pot where it is if of course you can life of other income.

Annuity rates are currently crap, mainly due to interest rates (and other factors), but they do provide you with a 'guaranteed' income until you die.

You can go down a 'drawdown' option whereas you partially encash your pension pot (with using tax-free cash or income). With an annuity you had to take the TFC and income at the same time. With drawdown you can take bits of each at different times if you want. Keeping your pot inside a pension plan is very tax efficient (free of IHT to start) hence people not liking annuities too much. It's an evolving market at present with new methods and ideas becoming available making pension income options much more flexible. Just a shame most people will have bugger all in their pot to take advantage of it.

Despite my bad experience with Equitable Life I have always tried to put a reasonable amount into my pension. At one time I thought that I might retire at 55 but this is looking increasingly unlikely. I had a colleague at my last job who had been in the company for 20 years and never joined their Final Salary Pension scheme. Madness!

[rogerxp]

Originally Posted by Boyd1963

Despite my bad experience with Equitable Life I have always tried to put a reasonable amount into my pension. At one time I thought that I might retire at 55 but this is looking increasingly unlikely. I had a colleague at my last job who had been in the company for 20 years and never joined their Final Salary Pension scheme. Madness!

Yup, I got spanked by the Equitable Life, but luckily it wasn't a big pot at the time and I hardly had anything invested into the With Profits fund.

To not join a FS pension over 20 years it just mental; I wonder how many times a day he'll regret that decision throughout retirement .

I have loads of stories like that unfortunately .

[creepy coupe]

Originally Posted by xenon

Cashed it in? You mean he was over retirement age?

He was mid 40's Ian.