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      10-19-2016, 03:43 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post



And let's not forget how everyone sat idly by when the Tiananmen Square protests broke out seeking political freedom. There's no dispute about China's track record with human rights abuse. Remember that iconic image of that sole Chinese man standing in front of that tank blocking its movement? Ever wonder what happened to him? So far no one knows about his fate or where abouts.
Tiananmen Square still gets my adrenalin going. Our leaders have not dealt with china in a way which will benefit us (and the rest of humanity). We need a Scott Walker type to deal with them (like he did with his WI public unions). But I think Trump is all talk. I don't have any convictions he will do any better.
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      10-19-2016, 03:45 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by VRG_135 View Post
I disagree. Though the Germans had very good military minds, it is a widely accepted fact that from a HQ perspective, logistics are more important than tactics. By 1944, 50% of world GDP was the US economy. And we had the means to invade Europe when we wanted (by having a far superior navy). And while the Nazi's had some great military tools (Panther Tank, stg 44, mg42 mg, ME262), our stuff wasn't too bad either (M1 rifle,.50 Ma Duece, m4 with Firefly gun (76mm), B-29). Oh, and we had the BOMB. Germans weren't even close on that one.
Oh BTW thats only a million German soldiers at the start of Barbarossa.. they fielded up to 4 million men in the Eastern Front.
Try facing 4 million well equipped Nazis in Western Europe.. yea right.
The Russians also dessimated the Luftwaffe.. try taking on 5 millions Germans with good air support.
Oh they were also working on "the bomb" as well..

You know we have a great military as well.. but lets face it, the Russians took Germany to task by throwing 7 million soldiers at them and pushing them back to Berlin.. without them .. spreken ze Deutsche.
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      10-19-2016, 03:48 PM   #25
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Unvetted immigrants? That's total BS. People who apply for US Immigration for refugees have a extremely hard time to get into the USA. Only 1% of those that apply will get through. The process takes 2 YEARS or longer sometimes. America has the hardest immigration process out of all the places taking in refugees.

Their names, biographical information and fingerprints are run through federal terrorism and criminal databases. Meanwhile, the refugees are interviewed by Department of Homeland Security officials. If approved, they then undergo a medical screening, a match with sponsor agencies, "cultural orientation" classes and one final security clearance.

Syrian refugees in particular must clear one additional hurdle. Their documents are placed under extra scrutiny and cross-referenced with classified and unclassified information. It makes no sense for ISIS to chance sending someone over as a refugee and wait 2-3 years for them to get in when there are much faster ways. European tourists can get in instantly.

Not to mention Clinton has said she wants to make it even harder for people to get in. "Congress needs to provide enough resources to ensure we have sufficient personnel deployed to run the most thorough possible process," she said.
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      10-19-2016, 03:51 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by VRG_135 View Post
Tiananmen Square still gets my adrenalin going. Our leaders have not dealt with china in a way which will benefit us (and the rest of humanity). We need a Scott Walker type to deal with them (like he did with his WI public unions). But I think Trump is all talk. I don't have any convictions he will do any better.
My replies weren't geared towards whether Hillary or Trump would be able to "handle" China. It's an overall reply to your assertion that China isn't as menacing as they appear. No they're worse in my opinion. They have gotten away with so much and no one does anything substantial to keep them in check. They're going to keep doing what ever they feel like doing because they know no one has the balls to stand up to them. From a US stand point, we have no one to blame but ourselves for allowing us to be in this situation.
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      10-19-2016, 03:55 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Stopped reading after Tons more "unvetted"
We all understand you struggle with reading.
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      10-19-2016, 03:56 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
My replies weren't geared towards whether Hillary or Trump would be able to "handle" China. It's an overall reply to your assertion that China isn't as menacing as they appear. No they're worse in my opinion. They have gotten away with so much and no one does anything substantial to keep them in check. They're going to keep doing what ever they feel like doing because they know no one has the balls to stand up to them. From a US stand point, we have no one to blame but ourselves for allowing us to be in this situation.
Its also our fault that we let our politicians form policies which allowed our industries to shift factories and jobs to China and overseas just so that for 10 years or so we can have cheaply made goods which break in 10 days or so but remain smug that we got such a great deal and saved so much money..
short-term gain?
long-term disaster
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      10-19-2016, 03:57 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Unvetted immigrants? That's total BS. People who apply for US Immigration for refugees have a extremely hard time to get into the USA. Only 1% of those that apply will get through. The process takes 2 YEARS or longer sometimes. America has the hardest immigration process out of all the places taking in refugees.

Their names, biographical information and fingerprints are run through federal terrorism and criminal databases. Meanwhile, the refugees are interviewed by Department of Homeland Security officials. If approved, they then undergo a medical screening, a match with sponsor agencies, "cultural orientation" classes and one final security clearance.

Syrian refugees in particular must clear one additional hurdle. Their documents are placed under extra scrutiny and cross-referenced with classified and unclassified information. It makes no sense for ISIS to chance sending someone over as a refugee and wait 2-3 years for them to get in when there are much faster ways. European tourists can get in instantly.

Not to mention Clinton has said she wants to make it even harder for people to get in. "Congress needs to provide enough resources to ensure we have sufficient personnel deployed to run the most thorough possible process," she said.
Unless you're Cuban.
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      10-19-2016, 03:59 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
Oh BTW thats only a million German soldiers at the start of Barbarossa.. they fielded up to 4 million men in the Eastern Front.
Try facing 4 million well equipped Nazis in Western Europe.. yea right.
The Russians also dessimated the Luftwaffe.. try taking on 5 millions Germans with good air support.
Oh they were also working on "the bomb" as well..

You know we have a great military as well.. but lets face it, the Russians took Germany to task by throwing 7 million soldiers at them and pushing them back to Berlin.. without them .. spreken ze Deutsche.
We actually did most of the damage against the Luftwaffe (as did mother nature in the east). When daylight bombing was suspended do to operational losses, a new strategy was devised (and luckily the P-51 also became available about this time). Instead of staying near the bombers, the P-51's would do a fighter sweep of the area to be attacked. They (the Nazi's) being unaware initially, were frequently caught off guard. The p-51's, P-38's, and other types also went to guarding the bombers by going after the attacking fighters, not staying with the bomber formations. Eventually, because the Nazi pilots could never be rotated out, they lost most of their good pilots. And their flight training was not nearly as vigorous as it had been before the war (the Japanese had the exact smae operation deficiency).
And the Russians have been proven to have been overrated. The Ilyushin Il-2 is an example. Though very well protected in its famed "bathtub" armor, it was really too slow and couldn't carry a meaningful bomb load. Though lauded by the soviets, the Germans never really feared it.
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      10-19-2016, 04:01 PM   #31
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Again

Whats there to "Stand up to Russia" over?

Syria is a mess that Clinton/Obama/Kerry have fabricated due to their incompetence

Folks that think that military/force is the way to handle things are daft

You want to have influence over other countries then you need a solid currency and economy that actually produces something that everyone else in the world wants

If the US wasnt a fiscal/economic trainwreck with virtually no leverage then we wouldnt need half the military/etc let alone consider getting into wars over stupid shit

Its like any business deal....you need to have something that the other party wants/needs......and the ability to prevent them from considering taking it away from you

In recent years we have it backwards.....we have no economic influence....we can only operate with brute force
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      10-19-2016, 04:02 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
My replies weren't geared towards whether Hillary or Trump would be able to "handle" China. It's an overall reply to your assertion that China isn't as menacing as they appear. No they're worse in my opinion. They have gotten away with so much and no one does anything substantial to keep them in check. They're going to keep doing what ever they feel like doing because they know no one has the balls to stand up to them. From a US stand point, we have no one to blame but ourselves for allowing us to be in this situation.
If you look at things from a Chinese point of view - they are the underdog that has been cheated on and beat up by Westerners for a long time. The English, Americans, the Japanese, the Russians, even the Dutch and French have carved out their land, taken advantage of their people and used them for their resources. Now that they have power, they're out to show everyone who's boss and stand up to the bullies. After centuries of being a punching bag, they have no love for outsiders.

Of course, its in the US's interest to keep things from escalating. That means letting a few little thing slide. An actual war is something neither side wants.
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      10-19-2016, 04:05 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
If you look at things from a Chinese point of view - they are the underdog that has been cheated on and beat up by Westerners for a long time. The English, Americans, the Japanese, the Russians, even the Dutch and French have carved out their land, taken advantage of their people and used them for their resources. Now that they have power, they're out to show everyone who's boss and stand up to the bullies. After centuries of being a punching bag, they have no love for outsiders.

Of course, its in the US's interest to keep things from escalating. That means letting a few little thing slide. An actual war is something neither side wants.
Are you of Chinese decent by chance?
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      10-19-2016, 04:05 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
If you look at things from a Chinese point of view - they are the underdog that has been cheated on and beat up by Westerners for a long time. The English, Americans, the Japanese, the Russians, even the Dutch and French have carved out their land, taken advantage of their people and used them for their resources. Now that they have power, they're out to show everyone who's boss and stand up to the bullies. After centuries of being a punching bag, they have no love for outsiders.

Of course, its in the US's interest to keep things from escalating. That means letting a few little thing slide. An actual war is something neither side wants.
Is this what you consider to be "Letting a few things slide"?

http://www.industryweek.com/intellec...ctual-property

"The Impact of International IP Theft on the American Economy":

”Hundreds of billions of dollars per year. The annual losses are likely to be comparable to the current annual level of U.S. exports to Asia—over $300 billion...”
Millions of jobs. If IP were to receive the same protection overseas that it does here, the American economy would add millions of jobs.
A drag on U.S. GDP growth. Better protection of IP would encourage significantly more R&D investment and economic growth.
Innovation. The incentive to innovate drives productivity growth and the advancements that improve the quality of life. The threat of IP theft diminishes that incentive.
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      10-19-2016, 04:06 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by VRG_135 View Post
We actually did most of the damage against the Luftwaffe (as did mother nature in the east). When daylight bombing was suspended do to operational losses, a new strategy was devised (and luckily the P-51 also became available about this time). Instead of staying near the bombers, the P-51's would do a fighter sweep of the area to be attacked. They (the Nazi's) being unaware initially, were frequently caught off guard. The p-51's, P-38's, and other types also went to guarding the bombers by going after the attacking fighters, not staying with the bomber formations. Eventually, because the Nazi pilots could never be rotated out, they lost most of their good pilots. And their flight training was not nearly as vigorous as it had been before the war (the Japanese had the exact smae operation deficiency).
And the Russians have been proven to have been overrated. The Ilyushin Il-2 is an example. Though very well protected in its famed "bathtub" armor, it was really too slow and couldn't carry a meaningful bomb load. Though lauded by the soviets, the Germans never really feared it.
The Luftwaffe lost the Battle Britain but it by no means incapacitated.. they were largely decimated by ops against the Red Air Force over the course of the Eastern Front.. so no we did not do most of the damage against the Luftwaffe.

Back to point:
Here is what the country looks like if Clinton wins.. add more if you like.. retort if you dare..

1)Tons more "unvetted" immigrants streaming in from Everywhere & the Middle-east
(hey I am alll for legal immigration ok.. we used to have some criteria for heaven sake) How many of these guys esp from the Middleeast are gonna be fans of the USA? I really dont blame them .. but dont let them come here if they hate us..

2)More aggressive conflict confrontation in Syria/South china Sea/Ukraine.. means escalation into conventional & then nuclear war. (does anyone really expect Russia & China to back down from anything? Since when have they ever?.. is it even worth it for us at all? I'd like to drive my BMW for decades to come on glass-like roads NOT in Madmax world).. and certainly dont wanna give up our lives for.. Syria? South China Sea? Ukraine? WTF

3)More THEM VS US.. you know them (the rich, the powerful..) we little people are too stupid to be given the keys to our own lives .. to be used as worker bees and soldiers whose lives can be thrown away for whatever we are told .. but really for their ends..
Everyone used to think everything is a conspiracy until we all found out we are living these conspiracies..as fact. Dem primaries rigged.. and everyone is ok with that? FBI not doing their job or showing favoritism fro the powerful.. everyone is OK with that?
Does anyone actually think the secretive covert way they rig and manipulate things will actually get BETTER with Hillary Clinton at the helm??? GOOD GOD

4)More of our money (maybe eventually MOST of our money) poured into more healthcare or Obamacare or Hillarycare whatever name they eventually give it. Will provide less quality services at higher rates. We're just seeing the beginning.. and you know Clinton has said she isn't revamping Obamacare.. oh she wants to increase coverage and lower costs.. HOW? .. MORE TAXES THATS HOW..

Economy.. fake.. to be rectified by Hillary? We will get RECT-umfied by Hillary.
2nd Amendment.. kiss your guns goodbye.. or kiss your bullets goodbye
for that matter .. 1st Amendment.. eventually. gone
Constitutional convention to get rid of that pesky bill-of-rights?

LOL (sad LOL)
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      10-19-2016, 04:07 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
If you look at things from a Chinese point of view - they are the underdog that has been cheated on and beat up by Westerners for a long time. The English, Americans, the Japanese, the Russians, even the Dutch and French have carved out their land, taken advantage of their people and used them for their resources. Now that they have power, they're out to show everyone who's boss and stand up to the bullies. After centuries of being a punching bag, they have no love for outsiders.

Of course, its in the US's interest to keep things from escalating. That means letting a few little thing slide. An actual war is something neither side wants.
The funny thing about the chinese govt. is that the original stated reason for their communist revolution was so the workers wouldn't be repressed & exploited. Now, 10 million+ wasted lives later, they have opened up to the world to let their workers be some of the most exploited in the world. Vietnam is in that same boat. Very ironic.
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      10-19-2016, 04:07 PM   #37
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I have always had a fascination with WWII. There are two mistakes Hitler made leading to the Nazi downfall: Hitler was prescribed amphetamines to keep him awake at all times which caused bad judgment. Sending large portions of the Nazi army into Russia during the worst winter of the century led to the demise of these forces. England was on the ropes and had he not went after Russia then and finished England and waited for a better time he could have taken Russia leaving the US as the last to conquer.
While Japan at this time was losing the Pacific, Hitler could have concentrated his resources on that and development of the Atomic bomb.
So, while no one knows how we would have fared solely against a non-depleted Nazi force, I think they would have prevailed had it not been for the Russians.
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      10-19-2016, 04:11 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
The Luftwaffe lost the Battle Britain but it by no means incapacitated.. they were largely decimated by ops against the Red Air Force over the course of the Eastern Front.. so no we did not do most of the damage against the Luftwaffe.



LOL (sad LOL)
No, most sources, from Keegan, to Shirer, to Hastings, to almost every western historian, believes we won the air war.
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      10-19-2016, 04:16 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnh View Post
Is this what you consider to be "Letting a few things slide"?

http://www.industryweek.com/intellec...ctual-property

"The Impact of International IP Theft on the American Economy":

”Hundreds of billions of dollars per year. The annual losses are likely to be comparable to the current annual level of U.S. exports to Asia—over $300 billion...”
Millions of jobs. If IP were to receive the same protection overseas that it does here, the American economy would add millions of jobs.
A drag on U.S. GDP growth. Better protection of IP would encourage significantly more R&D investment and economic growth.
Innovation. The incentive to innovate drives productivity growth and the advancements that improve the quality of life. The threat of IP theft diminishes that incentive.
Yes, it's better for them to steal some patent designs than allowing world war 3. That number is way inflated. That's like saying Microsoft Windows cost $200 per license - that's the retail price but Windows comes built into every PC at a much cheaper price. Also stuff like a Justin Beiber song is worth $500 million in sales but is instead pirated. WTF, i'd wouldn't pay for Bieber crap.

As for hacking computer systems... it's part of China testing it's powers. The US does the same thing but of course the US media doesn't cover it. Snowden blew the US cover though. It's retaliation.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoz.../#17620dd15d84
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      10-19-2016, 04:18 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Yes, it's better for them to steal some patent designs than allowing world war 3. That number is way inflated. That's like saying Microsoft Windows cost $200 per license - that's the retail price but Windows comes built into every PC at a much cheaper price. Also stuff like a Justin Beiber song is worth $500 million in sales but is instead pirated. WTF, i'd wouldn't pay for Bieber crap.

As for hacking computer systems... it's part of China testing it's powers. The US does the same thing but of course the US media doesn't cover it. Snowden blew the US cover though. It's retaliation.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoz.../#17620dd15d84
The losses due to IP theft are not inflated in any way shape or form
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      10-19-2016, 04:19 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by VRG_135 View Post
No, most sources, from Keegan, to Shirer, to Hastings, to almost every western historian, believes we won the air war.
Of course they would say that..
there is no real way to replay history.
However the Luftwaffe was split .. the large majority of its force was in the Eastern Front tasked with establishing air superiority and ground support.
The wings on the Western Front were tasked with Defense of the Reich campaign ie.. air defense against bombers.
The US/UK faced the smaller forces mustered by the Luftwaffe.. it never faced its best units nor its full brunt.
The Nazis had their hands full in the Eastern Front.. prior to the war many German pilots were training with Russians in the schools in Lipetsk. The Russians were by no means bad airmen.. no not much is ever touted of the Russian role in WW2.. propaganda.

Back to point:
Here is what the country looks like if Clinton wins.. add more if you like.. retort if you dare..

1)Tons more "unvetted" immigrants streaming in from Everywhere & the Middle-east
(hey I am alll for legal immigration ok.. we used to have some criteria for heaven sake) How many of these guys esp from the Middleeast are gonna be fans of the USA? I really dont blame them .. but dont let them come here if they hate us..

2)More aggressive conflict confrontation in Syria/South china Sea/Ukraine.. means escalation into conventional & then nuclear war. (does anyone really expect Russia & China to back down from anything? Since when have they ever?.. is it even worth it for us at all? I'd like to drive my BMW for decades to come on glass-like roads NOT in Madmax world).. and certainly dont wanna give up our lives for.. Syria? South China Sea? Ukraine? WTF

3)More THEM VS US.. you know them (the rich, the powerful..) we little people are too stupid to be given the keys to our own lives .. to be used as worker bees and soldiers whose lives can be thrown away for whatever we are told .. but really for their ends..
Everyone used to think everything is a conspiracy until we all found out we are living these conspiracies..as fact. Dem primaries rigged.. and everyone is ok with that? FBI not doing their job or showing favoritism fro the powerful.. everyone is OK with that?
Does anyone actually think the secretive covert way they rig and manipulate things will actually get BETTER with Hillary Clinton at the helm??? GOOD GOD

4)More of our money (maybe eventually MOST of our money) poured into more healthcare or Obamacare or Hillarycare whatever name they eventually give it. Will provide less quality services at higher rates. We're just seeing the beginning.. and you know Clinton has said she isn't revamping Obamacare.. oh she wants to increase coverage and lower costs.. HOW? .. MORE TAXES THATS HOW..

Economy.. fake.. to be rectified by Hillary? We will get RECT-umfied by Hillary.
2nd Amendment.. kiss your guns goodbye.. or kiss your bullets goodbye
for that matter .. 1st Amendment.. eventually. gone
Constitutional convention to get rid of that pesky bill-of-rights?

LOL (sad LOL)
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      10-19-2016, 04:23 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VRG_135 View Post
The funny thing about the chinese govt. is that the original stated reason for their communist revolution was so the workers wouldn't be repressed & exploited. Now, 10 million+ wasted lives later, they have opened up to the world to let their workers be some of the most exploited in the world. Vietnam is in that same boat. Very ironic.
Yeah, pure communism is flawed in that there is no incentive for anyone to work hard. Now China's economy is more capitalistic than the USA.

It's very fucked up though - people will walk all over others, even screw their own families to make money. Money is now #1 priority for everyone. As Deng Xiaoping declared, "Getting rich is glorious!"

Vietnam is following the same road too now. It's a fucked up world.

It probably will stabilize in the future much as the US did 100 years ago.
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      10-19-2016, 04:23 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
As for hacking computer systems... it's part of China testing it's powers. The US does the same thing but of course the US media doesn't cover it. Snowden blew the US cover though. It's retaliation.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoz.../#17620dd15d84
Difference being scales of economy. We may do some espionage trying to find out about their military or foreign policy. They are stealing commercial ideas and intellectual property
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      10-19-2016, 04:25 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by jpnh View Post
The losses due to IP theft are not inflated in any way shape or form
Yeah, tell me Justin Bieber's song is worth $500M.

Next time you download an MP3 song off the internet, tell me that MP3 is worth $5 each song.
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