[bcaslis]

Sorry, no I wasn't kidding. I have heard of an Audi A3, but didn't make the connection.

I don't know if SSG will be better than SMG but SMG speed in shifting wasn't really the issue. The issue was it was very slow and lurchy when shifting with little throttle, but when hard on the throttle it shifts hard enough that wheels are always breaking traction and hitting the DSC hard which then causes it to bog because the DSC was slamming on the brakes!

I'm very happy with the 6-speed manual on the 330i. If they improve the technology I'll look at it, but no buying without an extended test drive this time!

Originally Posted by vladinecko

if you're not kidding, then:
DSG - Audi's version of sequential manual gearbox.
A3 - one of Audi's models

[CC 330i]

I love the DSG transmission, and would even consider getting one. So I am not totally opposed to an "Automatic". If a transmission is better than a manual, I will consider it. The DSG is quicker than manual to shift, holds a gear as long as you want it to all the way to redline, lets you downshift into redline, blips the throttle to match RPM on downshifts, but still will operate in fully automatic mode.

Maybe if fewer BMW owners settled for steptronic, BMW would have considered this type of technology sooner.

[vladinecko]

Originally Posted by CC 330i

Maybe if fewer BMW owners settled for steptronic, BMW would have considered this type of technology sooner.

Does that mean they're already considering it? That would be awesome!

I've never test-driven Steptronic, is it really that slow?

[vladinecko]

Originally Posted by KenB

They most definitely are. Check out the options list. Active Steering, Adaptive Speed Control, you don't even have to look when you back up (Park Distance Control), or know where the hell you are going (Navi)

KenB, I think he was just being sarcastic...

[fatass]

Is it some unwritten code that all manual drivers have to convert automatic drivers to their side?

[CC 330i]

Originally Posted by vladinecko

KenB, I think he was just being sarcastic...

Hey, that's my job!!

[Petercat]

I don't mean to start any fires or imply that anyone isn't as good of a driver as they believe, but...

I wonder if there have been any tests which provide information on shifting (manual vs. step). I hear a lot of people say that they shift faster than a step or that the step shifts "too slow". I wonder if Manual shifts are that much quicker or just seem quicker because we are actively engaged in the process.

Are manual shifts dramatically faster or are we just talking fractions of a second which the average driver wouldn't notice.

Please don't reply with a "I know..." or "it feels..." because we all know the story.

I'm just curious if there is any true data out there.

I wonder if we are as good of drivers as we think we are.


Oh, and please don't flame me because I own an automatic. Personal problem (revealed in another thread) forces automatic ownership. I do enjoy a manual driving experience when I get a chance.

[scottz5]

I sold my last BMW fast because it was a stick. Many people want BMW's in stick

[CC 330i]

Originally Posted by Petercat

I don't mean to start any fires or imply that anyone isn't as good of a driver as they believe, but...

I wonder if there have been any tests which provide information on shifting (manual vs. step). I hear a lot of people say that they shift faster than a step or that the step shifts "too slow". I wonder if Manual shifts are that much quicker or just seem quicker because we are actively engaged in the process.

Are manual shifts dramatically faster or are we just talking fractions of a second which the average driver wouldn't notice.

Please don't reply with a "I know..." or "it feels..." because we all know the story.

I'm just curious if there is any true data out there.

I wonder if we are as good of drivers as we think we are.


Oh, and please don't flame me because I own an automatic. Personal problem (revealed in another thread) forces automatic ownership. I do enjoy a manual driving experience when I get a chance.

I don't know if it is so much the speed of the shift that makes the difference. It's more the ability to choose your gear and skip gears quickly and hold a gear for as long as you want that matters. The SMG tranny is pretty good for this, as is the Audi DSG, but the steptronic is a little mushy and doesn't always let you downshift when you want to, and will eventually upshift for you even in manual mode. Also, there is the issue of greater weight of the automatic transmission.

Don't get me wrong, I had an E46 loaner with steptronic and it was still fun to drive, and shifted quickly enough for my tastes, but I just felt lazy driving it, and in tight, fast corners, I couldn't always get driveline of the car to do what I wanted. I am sure I could get used to it, but I don't know if I could ever be as fast in it.

Could you beat me in an automatic 330i around a racetrack? Maybe. Could I beat my own lap time in an automatic 330i? Probably not. I know that I would be faster in a manual. You might be faster still in an automatic, but that's not me. It's about how I want to drive. So buy what you want, but I will still have my own opinion about it.

I can understand a BMW being sold with an automatic, but not with automatic and sport package. SMG and sport, yes. Steptronic and sport, no. Will the sport package help on that bumper-to-bumper commute and with potholes and parking?

[ward]

my complaint is that the auto shifts when I don't want it to, and doesn't shift when I want it to sometimes too.

The "slow" complaint I have is when you put it in manual mode,
when I hit that shifter I want the shift NOW. I have never driven an automatic that shifted quickly enough in manual mode (lag time from me asking and me getting a gear change) The BMW SMG on a 330 was the only tranny I found to be quick enough (although only in sport mode, too slow on standard mode, and I haven't driven an M car with SMG which I can only hope is better)

I know the lag is probably less than a second, but it friggin drives me nuts. at least when I'm shifting the gears myself, I have something to do while making the change

[MonacoBlueNJ]

Originally Posted by CC 330i

I can understand a BMW being sold with an automatic, but not with automatic and sport package. SMG and sport, yes. Steptronic and sport, no. Will the sport package help on that bumper-to-bumper commute and with potholes and parking?

Wouldn't improved handling help in all situations? If a car doesn't have a clutch and flywheel it shouldn't handle well? I don't understand the argument.

Not directed at CC 330i, but at everyone in general: I would love to see all the internet racers try to drive their manuals faster than the auto owners. I think at most it would be about 50/50, if not more auto drivers faster. I can drive a stick and I think almost anyone can if given the opportunity and taught well. Ripping through gears is fun every once in a while, however, I just don't see the advantage other than the "cool factor." Every time I am stuck in Jersey traffic, I look over and pity the people working out their left legs and right arms.

[Nikki]

The DSG is faster than a manual because it has a dual clutch system that allows it to be in two gears at once, therefore it is fractions of a second quicker than a manual.

[CC 330i]

Originally Posted by MonacoBlueNJ

Wouldn't improved handling help in all situations? If a car doesn't have a clutch and flywheel it shouldn't handle well? I don't understand the argument.

Not directed at CC 330i, but at everyone in general: I would love to see all the internet racers try to drive their manuals faster than the auto owners. I think at most it would be about 50/50, if not more auto drivers faster. I can drive a stick and I think almost anyone can if given the opportunity and taught well. Ripping through gears is fun every once in a while, however, I just don't see the advantage other than the "cool factor." Every time I am stuck in Jersey traffic, I look over and pity the people working out their left legs and right arms.

I was only responding to those that insisted that they only got an automatic because most of their driving is in stop and go commuting. I first asked the question why they would need a sporty car for stop and go commuting. Obviously some do. Then, taking the argument further, why then would one order an automatic with a sport package? This would really have no advantage at all in stop and go driving, would cost more for tires, be a harsher ride, more susceptible to damaged wheels, etc. That was all I was saying.

Of course handling would be improved slightly, but I think many have noticed (as I regularly have) that the E90 has pretty severe understeer in a corner unless you are really on the throttle, and if you have an auto, you can't always get the RPM where you need it to be for optimum handling. So without traction control, if you are driving at or near the limit, you could really lose control of the car if you are not at the right RPM. You could understeer right off the road without enough RPM, or the opposite, you could spin. So, handling at the limit (or even near the limit) can be severely compromised with an automatic. Sport package would help, but not as much as proper driving technique, which can be hampered by an automatic. Anyone who has ever driven a motorcycle understands that the throttle is one of the most important handling tools on a vehicle. You certainly do not want to be shifting at the apex of a corner on a bike. It has the same effect in a car, but to a lesser degree. And you also need to know what the engine is going to be doing at all times. If you dart into a corner and downshift, and the car doesn't downshift before the apex, and then does downshift when you are at or near apex, your'e f'd. It's like Ward said, you need the car to do what you need it to do RIGHT NOW. A second's delay (or even less) can be a big problem when you are at the limit of adhesion.

Even if shifting is not involved, and you are in the right gear for the right RPM, the torque converter of an automatic soaks up a lot of the engine torque before translating it to the wheels. There is a delay. This is bad.

Drive by wire with a manual is bad enough. Automatic just takes it a step further. We're talking extreme driving here, which arguably many of us don't do very often. But some of us do. And we care. And that's what we bought our cars for.

But none of this has to do with the original post, which is about resale value. I think the value would be about a wash. Maybe a little more for the automatic.

[Petercat]

Originally Posted by ward

...I know the lag is probably less than a second, but it friggin drives me nuts. at least when I'm shifting the gears myself, I have something to do while making the change

This is exactly what my question is. Do we feel like the step is slow because we need to be doing something more than pushing the stick forward and back? I wonder if there are any hard numbers which say "it takes .X seconds for an average driver to change gears in a manual vs. it takes .X seconds for the step"?

[Petercat]

Originally Posted by CC 330i

I don't know if it is so much the speed of the shift that makes the difference. It's more the ability to choose your gear and skip gears quickly and hold a gear for as long as you want that matters. The SMG tranny is pretty good for this, as is the Audi DSG, but the steptronic is a little mushy and doesn't always let you downshift when you want to, and will eventually upshift for you even in manual mode. Also, there is the issue of greater weight of the automatic transmission.

Don't get me wrong, I had an E46 loaner with steptronic and it was still fun to drive, and shifted quickly enough for my tastes, but I just felt lazy driving it, and in tight, fast corners, I couldn't always get driveline of the car to do what I wanted. I am sure I could get used to it, but I don't know if I could ever be as fast in it.

Could you beat me in an automatic 330i around a racetrack? Maybe. Could I beat my own lap time in an automatic 330i? Probably not. I know that I would be faster in a manual. You might be faster still in an automatic, but that's not me. It's about how I want to drive. So buy what you want, but I will still have my own opinion about it.

I can understand a BMW being sold with an automatic, but not with automatic and sport package. SMG and sport, yes. Steptronic and sport, no. Will the sport package help on that bumper-to-bumper commute and with potholes and parking?

Of course, buy what you want...
The question wasn't whether you or I are faster than each other. That's not the issue at all and a non-productive arguement.

You really point out some benefits of the manual over auto. Rather than just saying "it's slow". You point out the techno-nanny attributes which take away your control. I think the best point you make is the direct selection of gear to gear, where manumatic you have to click through all to get what you want.

This brings up another question of mine. Does the computer know better than you and I? Don't you believe the auto upshifts are put there to prevent you and I from damaging our engines? I'm sure we've all had those misshifts we wish didn't happen.

No finger pointing, just open discussion.

[ward]

Originally Posted by Petercat

This is exactly what my question is. Do we feel like the step is slow because we need to be doing something more than pushing the stick forward and back? I wonder if there are any hard numbers which say "it takes .X seconds for an average driver to change gears in a manual vs. it takes .X seconds for the step"?

I bet it feels slow due to when you're done moving the stick in a manual car, you're in the next gear (footwork takes extremely little time before and after moving shifter), where with an auto, the tranny doesn't really even do anything until after you've moved the shifter.

with a manual, when you're done moving the lever the shift has already happened, but with the auto it's just started

[greenscape]

I would say you are limiting your potential audience more than impacting the actual price of the car. I would say to that the right buyer the Manual would be just as valuable... There may just be fewer "right" buyers..

[RICH2005]

My dealer tried to tell me that the 2002 330xi that I traded in had a limited trade in value because it was a 5 speed manual. I ended up trading it in for an amount greater than the high value of the black book amount.

I called back to check 3 weeks after I traded in the 330xi and the car had been sold already...........

[vladinecko]

Originally Posted by RICH2005

My dealer tried to tell me that the 2002 330xi that I traded in had a limited trade in value because it was a 5 speed manual. I ended up trading it in for an amount greater than the high value of the black book amount.

I called back to check 3 weeks after I traded in the 330xi and the car had been sold already...........

can you give me a little more details, how many miles on the car, how much did you traded-in in for, what condition was the car in, were you the original owner?

thanks!

[RICH2005]

My trade in was a 2002 330xi 5 speed manual with 59,000 km. It also had as options leather, wood, ski pass through, and the sports package. The black book wholesale was from $31,000 to $33,200 Canadian and I ended up getting a trade in of $33,500.

I was the second owner and bought the car when it was 12 months old and had 13,000 km on it. The first owner had put in a E36 M3 exhaust on the 330xi that I never got used to because of the extra backfire sound when I lifted my foot off the accelerator. I had enquired at my dealer to see how much it would cost to replace the M3 exhaust with the original 330xi exhaust and they told me it was $2,000 for parts and labour.

My net amount paid out for the 2006 330i after taxes and trade in was $17,000 so in my mind it was an easy decision to just trade in my 2002 330xi and get a new 330i with 4 years additional maintenance and warranty for $17,000.

[vladinecko]

Wow, that is a really good deal! See, I thought that any aftermarket or non-standard mods (like the M3 exhaust) would eventually lower the trade-in price. That's why I'm even afraid to install the Stellar keyless entry system. I don't want to pay for it and then have the dealer give me less money for the car on top of it. But I only expect to get around $5-6k USD for my car anyways...

Thanks for the info!

Are you going to miss the "x" component of your new E90?

[JamieA]

Originally Posted by ward

I bet it feels slow due to when you're done moving the stick in a manual car, you're in the next gear (footwork takes extremely little time before and after moving shifter), where with an auto, the tranny doesn't really even do anything until after you've moved the shifter.

with a manual, when you're done moving the lever the shift has already happened, but with the auto it's just started

For most manual drivers it isn't necessarily about outright shift speed. More important is having the greatest degree of control over the driveline. I personally have always thought that an auto is a very unkind thing to do to a good engine. When driving an auto I am constantly wondering what the manual would be like, how much extra power would there be, and more importantly, how much more responsive would the car be to throttle input.

Apart from all this, it is just pure fun - full stop. All die hard manual drivers would tell you that there is nothing sweeter than the perfectly shifted gear.

I am not saying that everyone would or should find it fun - at the end of the day it is horses for courses. I admit that I have longed for an auto when doing the daily commute, but I would rather wait for the day when newer technology such as DSG is perfected. But those times are far and few in-between because using a manual gearbox becomes a subconscious process and mostly requires little effort, so it hardly every bubbles up into my thoughts while driving.

People have been saying that they could cream manual drivers in a race with their autos, but in reality, just as there are bad manual drivers, there are also people who don't know how to drive an auto properly to get the best performance from it (I am probably in that group).

My final observation though is that there are some people in this world who have absolutely no mechanical sympathy, and they should definitely drive autos - we've all been in cars with these people at some stage