[expressfish]

interesting to say the least. Im sitting on the fence as we speak waiting to pull the trigger on an intercooler. Pretty much my last mod for now before I get a custom tune. Pricing and brands are all over the board....then I look at my temps as I never race, dyno or really run the car hard other than spirited runs on the hwy. Ive never seen more than 125 sitting at the drive thru picking up lunch on my stock unit and Im in Texas where its always hot ! Im cobb stage 2 aggressive LT, catless dwnpipes, injen intake, vrsf catback

[ilicboris]

I'm happy with my purchase. While IAT suppression would be the number one thing to look for don't rule out your budget, core size, use of factory couplers, or how much cutting is required.

We can't all buy the same product.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by bNks334

Are you kidding me? This is exactly why I am still taking my time to respond here. This is the double standard that keeps presenting itself.

A log of an ETS 5" @ 77f ambient showing a starting temp of 95f is ignored, but my 5" ARM @ 76f ambient showing 99.5f starting temp is BAD?. My oil is way hotter than 235f btw because my car is actually, you know, HOT when I did the log. I don't see you telling NoSlow5oh that his 5" ETS intercooler is bad. Maybe you should just stop selling 5" intercoolers altogether?



Re-read the things you are typing. Please. Then go back and re-read everything I have presented. Show me 1 "good/high quality" 5" intercooler running 10f or less over ambient (@77f). Everything I have seen says NONE OF THEM DO.



That is exactly why I am finding logs that show comparable DATA. You can keep making this blanket statement all you want, but I have yet to see you provide any specific reason why the logs I am posting are incomparable. Any difference in the mods/weather conditions will show such a marginal difference in IAT's it's a moot point to keep bringing up.

I don't see a single vendors saying, "oh hey by the way these gains will vary significantly with as small as a 2f degree deviation or 100ft elevation from car to car." They don't need to say that because it's just not true.



Yeah, in a perfect world I would do absolutely that. To say what I have done isn't an accurate approximation of real world performance is BS.



I am not making this personal toward anyone. But, do you hear yourself?... Yeah you're opinion isn't biased at all. Don't forget, ARM being 25f over ambient is bad but ETS being 22f over ambient is OK.

People can read and interpret the data for themselves. Just remember, not a single vendor in this thread has presented any real quantifiable data to support anything they've said. All they've done is try to discredit an attempt to put some numbers behind all those dollars you're spending.

I wish I had the time to continue this endless argument to which you want to continue that provides no help to the community.

What are you trying to prove here again, may I ask?

The same reason I'm not providing any data is the same reason you aren't either...

Nobody is willing to pay the money for the intercoolers, nobody is willing to pay the time to install them and nobody is willing to take the time to make the comparative data.

Until then, people can take the advice of forum go-ers or professionals advice. Many times that advice may be educated opinions, factual data, following bandwagons or buying the cheapest crap they can find on Ebay.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by expressfish

interesting to say the least. Im sitting on the fence as we speak waiting to pull the trigger on an intercooler. Pretty much my last mod for now before I get a custom tune. Pricing and brands are all over the board....then I look at my temps as I never race, dyno or really run the car hard other than spirited runs on the hwy. Ive never seen more than 125 sitting at the drive thru picking up lunch on my stock unit and Im in Texas where its always hot ! Im cobb stage 2 aggressive LT, catless dwnpipes, injen intake, vrsf catback

IAT idle data is moot.

What matters is the IAT during WOT 3rd and 4th gear pulls.

A stock intercooler in Texas heat.... that should have been your first upgrade even before a tune.

I dont mind what intercooler you get but most will be a significant improvement over stock

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

For bNks334

http://datazap.me/u/jpags529/log-146...0&data=4-15-21

It was 77 degrees that day. IAT was 82 starting. Ending at 90 top of 3rd.

5 degrees above ambient. ETS 5".

****

http://datazap.me/u/jpags529/72-shif...ata=4-14-15-21

It was 87 degrees that day. IAT was 90 Starting. Ending at 106 top of 3rd.

3 degrees above ambient. ETS 5"

Either I have a magical intercooler or maybe we can take from this that DIFFERENT CARS, DIFFERENT CONDITIONS, DIFFERENT HEAT SOAK, MODS, ETC ETC will extract different results.

Again, the flaw in your data is there is no control. Feel free to continue and try to grasp conclusive results with no control in the data, you'll be spinning your wheels though.

[Shane303]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

I wish I had the time to continue this endless argument to which you want to continue that provides no help to the community.

What are you trying to prove here again, may I ask?

The same reason I'm not providing any data is the same reason you aren't either...

Nobody is willing to pay the money for the intercoolers, nobody is willing to pay the time to install them and nobody is willing to take the time to make the comparative data.

Until then, people can take the advice of forum go-ers or professionals advice. Many times that advice may be educated opinions, factual data, following bandwagons or buying the cheapest crap they can find on Ebay.

That is all...

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Shane303

That is all...

Very helpful. You got me so good.

PS I found the time.

[Shane303]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

Very helpful. You got me so good.

PS I found the time.

[Tiago@VRSF]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

I wish I had the time to continue this endless argument to which you want to continue that provides no help to the community.

What are you trying to prove here again, may I ask?

The same reason I'm not providing any data is the same reason you aren't either...

Nobody is willing to pay the money for the intercoolers, nobody is willing to pay the time to install them and nobody is willing to take the time to make the comparative data.

Until then, people can take the advice of forum go-ers or professionals advice. Many times that advice may be educated opinions, factual data, following bandwagons or buying the cheapest crap they can find on Ebay.

Dont waste your breath

[LaxIan55]

It is completely ridiculous that we are now 9 years into a platform and there is no real data comparing any of the bolt on parts. Someone should have sacked up long ago, either shop or individual tuner and done some testing.

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF

Dont waste your breath

It's amazing. This all started because I called you, and others, out on the misleading statements.

Then you, and others, tried to deflect the situation by placing the burden on ME, the customer, to prove to YOU, the VENDOR, that the statements you were making were BS in the real world.

Originally Posted by LaxIan55

It is completely ridiculous that we are now 9 years into a platform and there is no real data comparing any of the bolt on parts. Someone should have sacked up long ago, either shop or individual tuner and done some testing.

It's absolutely ridiculous. So is the tuning situation. We pay top dollar for inferior tunes compared to other platforms.

What's even more ridiculous is that you have vendors stating that one intercooler is recommended over another, that one intercooler is higher quality than another, but they provide NO basis for saying so. You call them out on it and all the sudden "there is no conclusive data." No shit, so stop making unsupported claims... that's the goal here, not to prove one intercooler is better than another.

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

For bNks334

http://datazap.me/u/jpags529/log-146...0&data=4-15-21

It was 77 degrees that day. IAT was 82 starting. Ending at 90 top of 3rd.

5 degrees above ambient. ETS 5".

****

http://datazap.me/u/jpags529/72-shif...ata=4-14-15-21

It was 87 degrees that day. IAT was 90 Starting. Ending at 106 top of 3rd.

3 degrees above ambient. ETS 5"

Either I have a magical intercooler or maybe we can take from this that DIFFERENT CARS, DIFFERENT CONDITIONS, DIFFERENT HEAT SOAK, MODS, ETC ETC will extract different results.

Again, the flaw in your data is there is no control. Feel free to continue and try to grasp conclusive results with no control in the data, you'll be spinning your wheels though.

I appreciated your post because you finally posted some numbers. Congrats.

However, those logs are useless to me in regard to my comparison. I can't verify anything from those logs. I found your geographical location to be jersey. It looks like you gave the ambient temps from looking back at historical data of the daily high. That's about the only thing I can verify in regard to those logs and your cars mods. You also short shift your car in those logs before your turbo's start really blowing hot air. You are also N54, not very comparable to my N55 logs seeing as how you have 2 turbos that together can achieve greater airflow with less heat byproduct. Look back to post #249 where someone posted logs showing almost the same data as you. Turns out his numbers were misleading and not comparable AT ALL. Did you forget about that already? His oil temps were a dead giveaway that his car was cold. I could even prove, with the same cars logs, that the ETS intercooler, once actually hot (heatsoaked from real world hard driving), performs damn near the same as all the other 5" offerings (marginally better actually, but is the price tag worth it? it's a 25lb hunk of aluminum).

Thanks for bringing "controls" up once again. The controls are everything I've stated already. I presented logs showing similar ambient, similar heat-soak (actual HOT cars), similar loads, similar turbo's (N55), and similar altitudes (all the cities where data was taken from were all pretty much sea-level - compare barometric pressure if you want to).

If you want to say there are no controls to what I am presenting then so be it, but I think the numbers speak volumes.

The tuners have said it themselves. You are splitting hairs when it comes to which intercooler is best. On a stock turbo they pretty much all do the same thing once heat-soaked from performance driving. At the end of the day, the differences are MARGINAL.

This isn't a debate over the ETS intercoolers performance. I apologize for this devolving into something way more complicated than it really is... which was to point out that the statements being made are clearly being made to steer people away from cheaper alternatives (biased).

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by LaxIan55

It is completely ridiculous that we are now 9 years into a platform and there is no real data comparing any of the bolt on parts. Someone should have sacked up long ago, either shop or individual tuner and done some testing.

Every company has data posted on their website (well every company excluding ebay knock offs)

Realistically no one has the time or money to get every single intercooler out there and compare them together. Not to mention that every now and then companies release new intercoolers and / or new versions which means the comparison work has to be redone.

[Torgus]

Holy F it's just an intercooler. Just go buy VRSF or a big tom. If you want real AIT suppression use meth. People put way too much thought into this.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by bNks334

It's amazing. This all started because I called you, and others, out on the misleading statements.

Then you, and others, tried to deflect the situation by placing the burden on ME, the customer, to prove to YOU, the VENDOR, that the statements you were making were BS in the real world.



It's absolutely ridiculous. So is the tuning situation. We pay top dollar for inferior tunes compared to other platforms.

What's even more ridiculous is that you have vendors stating that one intercooler is recommended over another, that one intercooler is higher quality than another, but they provide NO basis for saying so. You call them out on it and all the sudden "there is no conclusive data." No shit, so stop making unsupported claims... that's the goal here, not to prove one intercooler is better than another.



I appreciated your post because you finally posted some numbers. Congrats.

However, those logs are useless to me in regard to my comparison. I can't verify anything from those logs. I found your geographical location to be jersey. It looks like you gave the ambient temps from looking back at historical data of the daily high. That's about the only thing I can verify in regard to those logs and your cars mods. You also short shift your car in those logs before your turbo's start really blowing hot air. You are also N54, not very comparable to my N55 logs seeing as how you have 2 turbos that together can achieve greater airflow with less heat byproduct. Look back to post #249 where someone posted logs showing almost the same data as you. Turns out his numbers were misleading and not comparable AT ALL. Did you forget about that already? His oil temps were a dead giveaway that his car was cold. I could even prove, with the same cars logs, that the ETS intercooler, once actually hot (heatsoaked from real world hard driving), performs damn near the same as all the other 5" offerings (marginally better actually, but is the price tag worth it? it's a 25lb hunk of aluminum).

Thanks for bringing "controls" up once again. The controls are everything I've stated already. I presented logs showing similar ambient, similar heat-soak (actual HOT cars), similar loads, similar turbo's (N55), and similar altitudes (all the cities where data was taken from were all pretty much sea-level - compare barometric pressure if you want to).

If you want to say there are no controls to what I am presenting then so be it, but I think the numbers speak volumes.

The tuners have said it themselves. You are splitting hairs when it comes to which intercooler is best. On a stock turbo they pretty much all do the same thing once heat-soaked from performance driving. At the end of the day, the differences are MARGINAL.

This isn't a debate over the ETS intercoolers performance. I apologize for this devolving into something way more complicated than it really is... which was to point out that the statements being made are clearly being made to steer people away from cheaper alternatives (biased).

The ONLY point of my post was to prove that an ETS 5" intercooler can have temps within 5 degrees or less then ambient in certain conditions, which was in direct responses to a previous remark you made.

It was also to show how without controlled data or understanding every aspect of how the data was achieved, not everything will be transparent.

-How long was a I driving the car for?

-Did I hang out in traffic before the pull?

-Were there any red lights before the pull?

-Was the vehicle on previously during the day or fist time of the day?

-Was the pull done after it was warmed up, parked and then immediately brought onto an open stretch of road?

There are plenty more scenarios that can alter the data...

However, the best part of my data was it was unplanned to prove my point, which was having less then 5 degree ambients at the start of the pull.

So to discredit it in anyway is laughable as all I had to do is grab my last 2 logs from several months ago to prove my point. So, yea, it's repeatable to say the least.

I'm sure I could also conjure up a scenario where it may be 20 degrees above ambient if I heat soak the snot out of it sitting at red lights or in a parking lot and then go do a pull with no time for air flow to pull out some heat.

But what would that prove?

Which goes back to my original point of control.... which I will keep harping on because your original data posted with all those different FMIC logs did not have. We have absolutely no idea the conditions those cars were in.

If you want to scrutinize it for reasons that the post had no intention of proving, so be it, it's the internet and forums after all so no one is ever satisfied and will always knit pick irrelevant details.

Just like you keep wanting to knit pick the details I've presented, I can do the same to every other post in this thread, including yours.

Where will it get us?

Likely no where. I'll mention the same thing I've said before, if the intercooler you have works for you, GREAT. BUT, don't try to convince people it's worthy where you have not ever compared something else on your personal vehicle with controlled data. Other peoples data can be manipulated and won't always be transparent. 4500 FT elevation in one log you posted is in no way a fair comparison or fair data against other intercoolers (as one exampl).

Also where I shift is not short shifting on an N54. Anyone who is anyone shifts around 6200RPM on this vehicle. There is no point over-working the turbo's to reach 7K. Again, the datalog was a typical datalog and typical pull on this vehicle. The data log was made several months ago had no intention of proving the point it proved yesterday but it still in fact did. (Within 5 degrees ambient at start of pull).

Not comparable being N55? PS, we are in the N54 section of the forum LOL

Post 249? Never saw it and no I don't read every last post in a 13 page thread LOL

If anyone wants to offer supportive data and comparison, keep the conditions as close to the same as possible and just change FMIC, it's that simple of a point.

If you want to find out if another intercooler is worthy of upgrading, you're going to have to go out and buy it and compare for yourself. Then when you find out the new one is worth it, sell the old. The used market is always looking for a gently used FMIC to get them in the game. Most intercoolers are better then stock.

I chose the ETS because it is the BEST 5" (non stepped FMIC). I do know in fact that there are other better intercoolers, which will also be bigger in size by no accident.

[WTF?]

Originally Posted by Torgus

Holy F it's just an intercooler. Just go buy VRSF or a big tom. If you want real AIT suppression use meth. People put way too much thought into this.

LOL.....exactly right.

Problem is that some people genuinely "Don't get it" and are told to buy an intercooler because its a "First mod" when in reality it's a sugar pill. Then some guy puts one on his car and tells the world it's a beast now. But, if another guy throws up a log that isn't so good.......not apples......wrong gear.....wrong elevation.....wrong fuel.....wrong color......wrong day.... you get the idea.

It's not the vendors fault though. It's the general mentality here. It holds people back and keeps them from doing their own work and making their own educated decisions.

[Tiago@VRSF]

At a certain point the flow of a higher capacity intercooler will benefit you. A customer with a big turbo setup recently freed up about 3-4 psi in the upper RPM range just from switching from a 7" to our new 7.5" race FMIC.

[WTF?]

Completely agreed......If it's a restriction. But, in that instance we are talking flow and not IAT. I wonder what he would pick up if he chucked the intercooler altogether and ran meth injection? But, that's for a different discussion.

There are definitely instances where a bigger/ higher flowing intercooler is beneficial, but not on a 300-350 whp 335i that only sees 150 temps anyways.

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by Captain Canuck

Do IAT's on the N55 rise way faster than on the N54? None of the IC's in the links above are performing well compared to decent N54 logs. Is the difference between the 2 engines that big?

This seems to be exactly the issue. I noticed the same thing that all the cars running at ambient were N54's.

On my N55, temps can fluctuate up to 10f within seconds from being on throttle to lifting off throttle (15f over ambient shooting to 25f over while on the highway). Running so high over ambient doesn't seem to have anything to do with the intercooler being inefficient, per logs.

It seems that the intake on the N55 is wrapped over the turbo and the engine causing heat soak. I tried wrapping everything in aluminum tape rated up to 260f ($7 at Walmart). I saw a ~5f drop in IAT's. I would be willing to bet that if I used the more expensive tape that's rated for 850f direct heat and spikes of 2000f ($20 a roll for a measly 1.5"x15ft) there would be even more of a dramatic decrease in IAT's. The intake pipe that is right above the turbo gets HOTT.




The other question is, why does the ETS core appear to perform a bit better? If you ask me it has less to do with it being a brand name "high quality" intercooler and more to do with the fact that it is NOT a stepped core.

Why are we buying intercoolers with a stepped design anyway... is it for the looks of having a big shiny intercooler? I doubt that step section does much at all. All it does it absorb heat from the radiator, which is running 240f coolant through it. You are also decreasing the efficiency of your radiator by blocking it. Now that I think about it, the step design is a lose/lose from a performance standpoint. All it does is inflate the surface area numbers for vendors as a selling point.

I think those two things right there are why IAT's are higher for certain 5" brands of intercoolers (almost all of them since they are all stepped) and for N55's in general...

[JunkyardDogg]

Are the VRSF 7" intercoolers the same build/quality as in the past?

[Tiago@VRSF]

We offer 2 different 7" intercoolers, a standard core and a high density core. We recommend the HD core for both FBO cars in warm climates or for anyone interested in reducing intake temperatures significantly. We also offer a 7.5" stepped race intercooler that we recommend for anyone with upgraded turbos.

We've revised the standard 7" 3 times since it's initial release.

[LMB335IS]

Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF

We offer 2 different 7" intercoolers, a standard core and a high density core. We recommend the HD core for both FBO cars in warm climates or for anyone interested in reducing intake temperatures significantly. We also offer a 7.5" stepped race intercooler that we recommend for anyone with upgraded turbos.

We've revised the standard 7" 3 times since it's initial release.

Wait, what? I've had the 7" for at least a couple yrs and this is the first I've heard of two different cores. Something new?

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by LMB335IS

Wait, what? I've had the 7" for at least a couple yrs and this is the first I've heard of two different cores. Something new?

Yes brand new ... They new High density core is not released yet