[techlogik]

Originally Posted by McMuffin

Just curious, why isn't Terry in here to defend his tune? Is it true he got paid off by someone not to be in here anymore?

Terry got banned on his own accord. He tells one story, those of us that were around then know why he was banned. Accusing him of being paid off by Shiv is just ridiculous and completely out of line.

[cn555ic]

Do you realize how easy it's to get another Screen name after you get banned! For All we know this AKA Mike person is the real Terry. Will the real SLIM SHADY please stand up please stand up!!

[shockin330i]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

Do you realize how easy it's to get another Screen name after you get banned! For All we know this AKA Mike person is the real Terry. Will the real SLIM SHADY please stand up please stand up!!

Ip addresses...

So much bickering..

[cn555ic]

Can't you change out a new computer and get new Internet provider and service!!! Anything is possible

[McMuffin]

Originally Posted by techlogik

Terry got banned on his own accord. He tells one story, those of us that were around then know why he was banned. Accusing him of being paid off by Shiv is just ridiculous and completely out of line.

Dude, I was asking not accusing! You accusing me of accusing Shiv is just ridiculous and completely out of line, apologize!

[PeteW84]

[tofu-]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

Can't you change out a new computer and get new Internet provider and service!!! Anything is possible

all you'd need to do is use a proxy. but i don't think anyone cares enough to check, and where would someone get terry's current ip from anyway?

[moveswiftly]

This thread....

[R1000K3]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

So Shiv is discussing the JB4 advance on one hand while advocating his "autotuning" on the other hand which relies on DME knock intervention full time. I find this to be an interesting position to take.

The JB4 brings a few new things to the table which greatly improve the safety over the JB3. And let's be honest the JB3 has an almost flawless track record to start with with 4500+ in use over the past 2 1/2 years.

1) Full progressive methanol mapping. Instead it was too easy (as Sevak did) to misconfigure the safety and allow knock during boost build up while on meth. No more.

2) Improved absolute boost targeting means DME boost is closer to target and thus the advance set points, which are mapped on DME boost, are now lower than they are on the JB3 which had more of an under-targeting tendency. In addition targets can't float now so you know exactly how high boost will be able to go. Vs. the JB3 where it was more of an enter a setting and guess how much boost you get with it.

3) The JB4 has the ability to monitor timing/knock and computes your aggression level over a rolling average which is used in a closed fashion loop to range boost. No more driving around too aggressive for your setup. To get knock it takes boost+advance. You can lower advance or lower boost to achieve the same result and the DME already features closed loop advance with long term trims. This feature alone would have saved Enrito's motor which was knocking off his aftermarket single electrode plugs as we've seen on cars now using those plugs. After one or two runs his boost would have dropped to near stock levels.

4) Better control over the air/fuel ratio with properly sized 2.7k fueling resistors. Allowing air/fuel ratios of up to 11:1. Actually that is part of the autotuning logic. As knock count increases fuel will now increase similar to the OEM logic.

5) BMS has recently found several of the CAN commands used to fix ECU parameters for diagnostics directly influence the advance set points. The key is finding the ones that don't have any other side effects, so some more development time is needed there, but it's all just time spent and firmware updates.

Mike

1. I know the meth min-flow condition value was set too low in Sevak's car to protect the engine at high boost IF there was a meth failure. But there was no meth failure when the engine went south. So, the question is what was it?

3. I think the reason for Enrita's failure is more clear. The car was runned with too high boost without the necessary fuel support. This is the first time I've seen a statement that Single Side Electrode plugs generates more knock in the N54 engine vs. stock plugs. Has this been verified?

[mwahlert]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

So Shiv is discussing the JB4 advance on one hand while advocating his "autotuning" on the other hand which relies on DME knock intervention full time. I find this to be an interesting position to take.

The JB4 brings a few new things to the table which greatly improve the safety over the JB3. And let's be honest the JB3 has an almost flawless track record to start with with 4500+ in use over the past 2 1/2 years.

1) Full progressive methanol mapping. Instead it was too easy (as Sevak did) to misconfigure the safety and allow knock during boost build up while on meth. No more.

2) Improved absolute boost targeting means DME boost is closer to target and thus the advance set points, which are mapped on DME boost, are now lower than they are on the JB3 which had more of an under-targeting tendency. In addition targets can't float now so you know exactly how high boost will be able to go. Vs. the JB3 where it was more of an enter a setting and guess how much boost you get with it.

3) The JB4 has the ability to monitor timing/knock and computes your aggression level over a rolling average which is used in a closed fashion loop to range boost. No more driving around too aggressive for your setup. To get knock it takes boost+advance. You can lower advance or lower boost to achieve the same result and the DME already features closed loop advance with long term trims. This feature alone would have saved Enrito's motor which was knocking off his aftermarket single electrode plugs as we've seen on cars now using those plugs. After one or two runs his boost would have dropped to near stock levels.

4) Better control over the air/fuel ratio with properly sized 2.7k fueling resistors. Allowing air/fuel ratios of up to 11:1. Actually that is part of the autotuning logic. As knock count increases fuel will now increase similar to the OEM logic.

5) BMS has recently found several of the CAN commands used to fix ECU parameters for diagnostics directly influence the advance set points. The key is finding the ones that don't have any other side effects, so some more development time is needed there, but it's all just time spent and firmware updates.

Mike

its scary when you quote two separate catastrophic engine failures in your marketing materials to display new features.

"our product used to suck and two guys popped their motors, we are trying to make the product better so we don't pop more"

if you can't beat um, join um...right?

[import36]

Originally Posted by mwahlert

its scary when you quote two separate catastrophic engine failures in your marketing materials to display new features.

"our product used to suck and two guys popped their motors, we are trying to make the product better so we don't pop more"

if you can't beat um, join um...right?

+1

i had to read it twice. wouldn't give me a lot of confidence if i was new to the market and looking for a tune. but to each's own...

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by R1000K3

1. I know the meth min-flow condition value was set too low in Sevak's car to protect the engine at high boost IF there was a meth failure. But there was no meth failure when the engine went south. So, the question is what was it?

3. I think the reason for Enrita's failure is more clear. The car was runned with too high boost without the necessary fuel support. This is the first time I've seen a statement that Single Side Electrode plugs generates more knock in the N54 engine vs. stock plugs. Has this been verified?

On the plugs, yes. Recently three other larger turbo guys attempted their use all with horrible results. Huge unexplained knock retard in 4th gear, etc. Even Shiv/Calvin posted they tested and removed them as they were more prone to knock. Would have been nice if they had let others know as well. There are many possible causes for his failure ranging from the 22psi boost levels, to the octane situation, lack of flow sensor, to possible faulty sensor, etc, but preignition off the plugs is the primary suspect. With a smarter tune, like the JB4, able to monitor knock retard actively he would have been alerted faster of the problem and likely would have caught it before it was too late. Who knows. One can't go back in time but can improve the product with new features to better protect the high horsepower customer and that was exactly what has been done with the JB4.

On Sevak, from what was posted he ran a 150ml/min flow min. This means
he will get 100% boost, in his case up to 19psi, and full advance, in his case 10 degrees-15 degrees, at only 150ml/min. That is a bad combination and a misuse or misunderstanding of how the safety is supposed to be configured. The purpose of a safety is two fold. First, to prevent boost buildup until meth is already flowing at the proper levels. Then secondly to act as a failsafe should meth flow stop during a run. It was likely experiencing massive knock every time he spooled the car without knowing it as he had never monitored timing/knock. The JB4 now offers progressive meth mapping so boost is limited to 11-12psi during this spool up phase and ramped in proportionally to methanol flow. The whole time knock is monitored so the tuning can react as needed.

Mike

[cn555ic]

Progressive methanol mapping was once knocked by BMS, and since then its the next best thing since its now a feature on the Jb4...Great innovation at its best! lol

[R1000K3]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

On the plugs, yes. Recently three other larger turbo guys attempted their use all with horrible results. Huge unexplained knock retard in 4th gear, etc. Even Shiv/Calvin posted they tested and removed them as they were more prone to knock. Would have been nice if they had let others know as well. There are many possible causes for his failure ranging from the 22psi boost levels, to the octane situation, lack of flow sensor, to possible faulty sensor, etc, but preignition off the plugs is the primary suspect. With a smarter tune, like the JB4, able to monitor knock retard actively he would have been alerted faster of the problem and likely would have caught it before it was too late. Who knows. One can't go back in time but can improve the product with new features to better protect the high horsepower customer and that was exactly what has been done with the JB4.

On Sevak, from what was posted he ran a 150ml/min flow min. This means
he will get 100% boost, in his case up to 19psi, and full advance, in his case 10 degrees-15 degrees, at only 150ml/min. That is a bad combination and a misuse or misunderstanding of how the safety is supposed to be configured. The purpose of a safety is two fold. First, to prevent boost buildup until meth is already flowing at the proper levels. Then secondly to act as a failsafe should meth flow stop during a run. It was likely experiencing massive knock every time he spooled the car without knowing it as he had never monitored timing/knock. The JB4 now offers progressive meth mapping so boost is limited to 11-12psi during this spool up phase and ramped in proportionally to methanol flow. The whole time knock is monitored so the tuning can react as needed.

Mike

Perhaps the tiny electrodes on the alternate plugs are more prone to glow. Better to stay away from them and wait until there is a proven replacement plug. The stock plugs seem very good though, I have done more 20+ PSI extend WOT's on road than I dare to count (thousands) and never got a glow code or any other code. With the same meth controller settings as Sevak was using, which is to be kept in mind when reading below. I've always used a CM10 though.

I know Sevak's car was set to start flow at 7 PSI and full flow at 12 PSI. He was also using a solenoid instead of a check valve (as I do) so the meth should be at 100% flow well before hitting high boost levels. The too low setting of 150 ml/min min flow has no impact whatsoever unless there is a meth failure where the failsafe then will not switch back to a weak map until the flow is less than 150 ml/min. But this is not the reason for Sevak's failure since he monitored the flow all the time and knows the meth system worked perfectly OK. It is easy to blaim the customer, and totally fair to do this when relevant. But in Sevak's case a too low meth flow was not the reason. I know he started on a M5 jet and at some period had quite high boost levels at redline. So, the damage may have been initiated earlier by weakening the ring lands. On the other hand the engine has not been examined in Sweden, so who knows. It could have been a stuck valve, blown head gasket or whatever.

[Ilma]

Impact of timing control:

3rd to 4th gear WOT pull

15 psi boost, 1.8 degrees of timing retard

Notice a nice knock event in 4th gear and the resulting timing curve drops from 9 to 4.5 degrees of advance as a result.

[Ilma]

Add in a little more ignition correction...... reduced timing advance by one more degree down to -2.8 degrees of retard:

Notice the nice smooth timing curves and that the timing advance in 4th gear is now actually 3.3 degrees HIGHER even though there is more ignition correction dialed in.

So I am actually making more power by introducing a little more retard.

Also.....my engine is avoiding a knock event.

Multiply that by thousands of times that you go WOT over the life of your car and then tell me it isn't a better thing to avoid as much knock as possible?

Moral of the story is that it is better to be a little Proactive rather than Reactive when it comes to timing control.

And you won't even feel these knock events when they happen......they will just accumulate over the life of your car.

[cn555ic]

So in essence Sevak's engine dealt with knock events throughout a prolonged period of time and eventually caused engine damage along with not using the correct parameters for his meth setup coupled with high boost...

[R1000K3]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

So in essence Sevak's engine dealt with knock events throughout a prolonged period of time and eventually caused engine damage along with not using the correct parameters for his meth setup coupled with high boost...

Agreed

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Multiply that by thousands of times that you go WOT over the life of your car and then tell me it isn't a better thing to avoid as much knock as possible?

The issue with this dicussion is that many, and it seems to be more prevelant of JB users, do not own their vehicle; it is being leased. As such, they do not care about the long term effects. They are fine with destroying someone else's property.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by scalbert

The issue with this dicussion is that many, and it seems to be more prevelant of JB users, do not own their vehicle; it is being leased. As such, they do not care about the long term effects. They are fine with destroying someone else's property.

Until recently, I also think that the JB never had access to tools that enabled them to log timing easily.

They seem to not care because they don't know what is going on inside their engines on a daily basis.

Those few JB users who did log their timing were quite astonished at how low their timing advance was, and how much knock they were experiencing during a typical pull.

But I believe Terry has always preached that you will make more power by running higher boost and lower timing.......which is true enough, but when you get to that lower timing curve by letting the DME react to a couple of knock events each time you go WOT....well it speaks for itself.

I believe my previous datalogs illustrate the point.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste

How many of us are that aggressive with our tuning? I personally select a map and go. Im not out to win any street races and I dont go to the strip every day. My point is that map selection works perfectly fine for most people. If you want to have a race car you wouldnt use a piggy back anyway.

How many cars have you tuned yourself? From the words you are using it sounds like you've been throwing on piggy backs and/or having people tune your cars.

Basic fundementals of tuning especially when raising 2x more boost regardless of what turbo require specific adjustments to manage air fuel and ignition.

Relying on a stock computer, that is constantly fighting itself, shooting for certain air fuel targets, certain ignition and certain boost, and putting on a glorified boost controller, and crossing your fingers that day to day the knock sensors bleed back enough ignition is not the appropriate way to tune a car.

If you didnt know already, those vehicles that chose the glorified boost controller route are constantly getting inconsistent driveability day to day.

Their boost curves, and dyno graphs have clearly shown it in the past. Let alone driving day to day.

Its obvious why this is happening. The stock computer wants to do something else, but its savings it a$$ everyday cause it sees a lot of boost and a lot of heat, so it has to REACTIVLeY tune itself as opposed to PRO-activley tuning itself.

A real tuner.... someone with REAL tuning background, would know the correct way to tune the car.
The last thing anyone should do when choosing a tune is get your emotions involved.


Its nice you like Shiv, or you dont like Terry.... I have no problem with either on a personal level, but dont get it twisted, there is one tune that works the way it does for a reason, and there is another tune that looks like it works. Key word looks.

Everyone needs to put back the criticism look past the emotions, look past the past, look past the loyalty and marketing schemes and price points, and remember what your messing with here....

[M3 Eater]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Add in a little more ignition correction...... reduced timing advance by one more degree down to -2.8 degrees of retard:

Notice the nice smooth timing curves and that the timing advance in 4th gear is now actually 3.3 degrees HIGHER even though there is more ignition correction dialed in.

So I am actually making more power by introducing a little more retard.

Also.....my engine is avoiding a knock event.

Multiply that by thousands of times that you go WOT over the life of your car and then tell me it isn't a better thing to avoid as much knock as possible?

Moral of the story is that it is better to be a little Proactive rather than Reactive when it comes to timing control.

And you won't even feel these knock events when they happen......they will just accumulate over the life of your car.

I got banned from n54 trying to explain this to the experts.......can't even get into the Jb4 beta group for being right.......