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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > N52 Exhaust Help (Headers + ?)



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      08-06-2018, 02:41 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlaPatsFan View Post
Interesting points guys. I will prob take my car to my exhaust guy and see what he suggests. I’ll wait a week or so then go to him. I may do what BB has and put the stock resonator back in instead of the secondary cats.
If it’s helpful in your decision process I can take more audio of mine or if you are ever down in WPB area you can take it for a ride and see how you like it. It sucks to pay money to have something installed and then not like it.
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      08-06-2018, 03:00 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Biginboca View Post
If it’s helpful in your decision process I can take more audio of mine or if you are ever down in WPB area you can take it for a ride and see how you like it. It sucks to pay money to have something installed and then not like it.
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      08-06-2018, 03:47 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
No, and also no.

It's not muffling sounds at all, the noise reduction is mostly a result of the exhaust gas merger (Y pipe)

Resonator's don't quiet exhausts - they CAN, but that's not their job and they shouldn't be used for that purpose.
This guy...

OK, so how do you explain this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotorenWerkeN52 View Post
I put the OEM resonator back with the PE muffler and man did it sound perfect. It was a bit quiter compared to just the PE without headers but in high rpms it was gold.

I miss that sound... Now I have everything stock after the headers and there is no noise at all, basically sounds stock.
According to MotorenWerkeN52, PE muffler (no OE resonator) + stock headers is LOUDER than PE + OE Resonator + aftermarket headers.

If aftermarket headers are so loud, and the OE resonator isn't cancelling any more noise than the PE's y-pipe, how do you explain what's happening there?

I'm not saying that a resonators 'job' is to attenuate an exhaust system's overall noise-level (however it is certainly it's job to attenuate the noise at a certain frequency which I would argue obviously attenuates sound overall, at least to some degree...), but I think the real confusion here is stemming from the fact that our OE resonator isn't JUST a resonator. We just call it that. And because of what it really is - a y-merger built into a chamber that also has resonating properties as well as what I personally believe to be MUFFLING properties - I feel, at least at this point (with very limited data), that the OE "resonator" does quieten the exhaust more than an aftermarket resonator does. Regardless, we need more people to experiment and record objective data (i.e. SPL meter) to ever really know for sure. That's my opinion on the matter though and I am sticking to it until proven wrong.
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      08-06-2018, 04:14 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
This guy...

OK, so how do you explain this?



According to MotorenWerkeN52, PE muffler (no OE resonator) + stock headers is LOUDER than PE + OE Resonator + aftermarket headers.

If aftermarket headers are so loud, and the OE resonator isn't cancelling any more noise than the PE's y-pipe, how do you explain what's happening there?

I'm not saying that a resonators 'job' is to attenuate an exhaust system's overall noise-level (however it is certainly it's job to attenuate the noise at a certain frequency which I would argue obviously attenuates sound overall, at least to some degree...), but I think the real confusion here is stemming from the fact that our OE resonator isn't JUST a resonator. We just call it that. And because of what it really is - a y-merger built into a chamber that also has resonating properties as well as what I personally believe to be MUFFLING properties - I feel, at least at this point (with very limited data), that the OE "resonator" does quieten the exhaust more than an aftermarket resonator does. Regardless, we need more people to experiment and record objective data (i.e. SPL meter) to ever really know for sure. That's my opinion on the matter though and I am sticking to it until proven wrong.
Not worth me arguing over. People will do what they want.
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      08-06-2018, 04:31 PM   #93
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I was actually curious and just did a little research and, lo and behold, the E9x "resonator" is actually called the "center muffler" on parts diagrams, literature, etc.

So there you go.

It isn't a resonator. It muffles and makes the exhaust quieter.

Now to get the PSA out there so that everyone in the E9x scene stops calling it a resonator. (lol, yeah, right...)
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      08-06-2018, 04:34 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
I was actually curious and just did a little research and, lo and behold, the E9x "resonator" is actually called the "center muffler" on parts diagrams, literature, etc.

So there you go.

It isn't a resonator. It muffles and makes the exhaust quieter.

Now to get the PSA out there so that everyone in the E9x scene stops calling it a resonator. (lol, yeah, right...)
I was doing the same:

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=18_0611

I got curious about it because the 1 series doesn't come with secondaries like the E90 does - and the one series PE does remove the "center muffler"
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      08-06-2018, 05:48 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlaPatsFan View Post
Interesting points guys. I will prob take my car to my exhaust guy and see what he suggests. I’ll wait a week or so then go to him. I may do what BB has and put the stock resonator back in instead of the secondary cats.
Put the stock resonator back in, it makes a huge difference. At least it did for me.
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      08-06-2018, 10:21 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Biginboca View Post
If it’s helpful in your decision process I can take more audio of mine or if you are ever down in WPB area you can take it for a ride and see how you like it. It sucks to pay money to have something installed and then not like it.
Thanks BB I may take you up on that. I have family in Hollywood near the Casino and a good buddy in W. Palm. I am overdue for a visit over there. I will shoot you a pm.

As for my set up....don’t get me wrong it sounds great but it is loud. It definitely has a serious race quality to it. I’m not one to have an obnoxious exhaust but some ppl may view it that way. Not that I care, I’m more concerned with not waking up my 1yo when he’s sleeping. Lol
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      08-06-2018, 10:50 PM   #97
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Data point:

I got AA headers and a muffler delete. Inside the cabin (with the rear seats UP) the volume is quite nice. It does drone a bit on the highway, but it's on the level of noise with the wind and tires, not bad but definitely there. Keep in mind I'm around 3.5k@80mph with the 3.73 rear. Above 4.5k the rasp intensifies greatly. Downshifts are pretty loud, and there is rasp on decel from higher RPMs. Nothing bone rattling. You can make it quiet but as soon as you get anywhere near the throttle, the noise increases pretty linearly. It's appropriate for a car guy, but even this is right at the threshold for me - but I'm trying to balance this car as the ultimate daily that is for car guys and lightly trackable.

I'm looking into a small muffler I can add inline. I think the exhaust is 2.25" by where the stock muffler is. I love the sound but just want a slight reduction, not as much reduced as was described with the stock setup+AA headers. Suggestions?

Taskmaster 1 series indeed can come with secondary cats. Mine has em, and I have zero intentions of removing them.

I think it goes something like this
Federal legal: No secondaries
ULEV: Secondaries
SULEV: N51
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      08-07-2018, 07:46 AM   #98
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      08-07-2018, 09:53 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertman123 View Post
I'm looking into a small muffler I can add inline. I think the exhaust is 2.25" by where the stock muffler is. I love the sound but just want a slight reduction, not as much reduced as was described with the stock setup+AA headers. Suggestions?
How about the "PE Mod?" Do you still have your stock muffler? Or better yet, I want to say there is a guy selling a used AA muffler in Florida right now. I feel like any aftermarket muffler will fit the bill, or are you worried about it getting too quiet? If it does, you could always compensate by deleting the secondaries which certainly frees up some power, too (if tuned properly).

Curious, does the 128i have a center muffler? All the same components as the 3er (catted headers, catted front pipes (secondaries), center muffler/y-pipe, rear muffler)?
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      08-07-2018, 10:01 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by desertman123 View Post
I got AA headers and a muffler delete. Inside the cabin (with the rear seats UP) the volume is quite nice. It does drone a bit on the highway, but it's on the level of noise with the wind and tires, not bad but definitely there. Keep in mind I'm around 3.5k@80mph with the 3.73 rear.
I find it interesting, but my PE definitely 'drones' a little (w/ stock headers and secondaries). About as much as what you're describing. It's definitely there. But what is drone? It's just exhaust noise. I feel like it's probably impossible to have an exhaust that you can hear without it ever 'droning.'

That's one reason that I'm even more excited about going to the 3.73 rear end, though. Bumping up the revs should eliminate that tiny bit of drone I have. I bet if you were on your stock rear end, your droning would be worse for sure.

It sure is fun thinking about exhausts, and cars in general - and trying to essentially reverse-engineer what the guys at BMW did.
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      08-07-2018, 11:59 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
How about the "PE Mod?" Do you still have your stock muffler? Or better yet, I want to say there is a guy selling a used AA muffler in Florida right now. I feel like any aftermarket muffler will fit the bill, or are you worried about it getting too quiet? If it does, you could always compensate by deleting the secondaries which certainly frees up some power, too (if tuned properly).

Curious, does the 128i have a center muffler? All the same components as the 3er (catted headers, catted front pipes (secondaries), center muffler/y-pipe, rear muffler)?
Yep, I still got my stock one sitting in my parent's attic. That might be a good solution. Will have to get my nice pretty tips welded up to it though!

I'm worried about it being TOO quiet. I was thinking the stock muffler would do that, but an aftermarket, straight-thru muffler would be a good middle ground.

And yes the 128i has a center muffler, I'm pretty sure the exhaust is identical besides length and shape.


Oh I forgot to mention my exhaust pops and cracks like I have a burble tune, especially when it's cold. Around 3k RPM if I let off, or tap the gas lightly it goes POP POP POP. Sometimes when I shift there'll be a pop inbetween gears. Sounds good lol.
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      08-18-2018, 10:23 AM   #102
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Will do, I haven’t driven it to much yet. But will be heading up to Tampa on Wednesday to get the AA re-tune.

Yes we have almost the same set up. However I replaced the factory resonator with a smaller custom one. Not sure if that will make that much of a difference tho. I must say car is pulling much better thru the mid range RPMs now!
So I’m curious now that some time has passed... what did you end up doing and are you happy with it now?
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      09-12-2018, 07:12 AM   #103
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So I’m curious now that some time has passed... what did you end up doing and are you happy with it now?
So I had the retune done and no doubt about it the car was pulling much stronger thru the mid range RPMs. Sound was loud! Especially down shifting at low RPMs. Car ran great for a week or so. Unfortunately it developed a vacuum leak in the rear crank case. F’d up everything. PCV failure and vacuum pump failure. Car was at shop 3weeks! Just got her back yesterday. Need to have retune done again because my Indy shop flashed car back to stock settings. Ughhhhhhh. So now the idle is a bit rough but, hoping the retune will iron that out. Gonna have the performance shop go over everything again just to be safe.

This has been extremely frustrating and expensive! Fingers crossed it will all workout.

Side note....I installed Euro box with K&N filter, sounds pretty sweet I must say.
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      04-03-2019, 06:58 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biginboca View Post
OP...

I think you definitely want to start by keeping the stock resonator. I think you would not regret keeping it but you can always delete or swap it later. It does a nice job taming the rasp and tractor sound at idle which is probably what you didn’t like about the first video.

Also I think the burble tune probably isn’t needed if you design for good flow you will have nice mild burbles that sound “performance” and not “obnoxious”.

I have as mentioned:
AA catless headers
SS secondary cat deletes
Stock resonator/v pipe
AA anti drone muffler

I get more compliments on my exhaust than you can imagine. It’s perfect sound, mellow at cruise with zero drone. I get pops and backfires, mild burbles. It’s pretty much flow optimized but the sound is great. At cruise you can’t hear it from inside the cabin very mellow. Windows down at WOT it screams. I posted some YouTube videos on the last or second to last page in my “exhaust to go with AA headers thread”. It’s maybe 2-3 pages back on this forum.

I would strongly advise against a muffler delete. I can’t see anyone wanting to live with that drone and obnoxious level of volume all the time from no secondary cats, headers, and no muffler. That is just a bad idea right there.

Here’s a video at WOT passing through an underpass with windows down and open sunroof. It’s deafening under these conditions but extremely quiet when you don’t go WOT.



This is highway cruising with windows up:

Your car sounds like mine sir... Beautiful
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      04-08-2020, 12:19 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biginboca View Post
OP...

I think you definitely want to start by keeping the stock resonator. I think you would not regret keeping it but you can always delete or swap it later. It does a nice job taming the rasp and tractor sound at idle which is probably what you didn’t like about the first video.

Also I think the burble tune probably isn’t needed if you design for good flow you will have nice mild burbles that sound “performance” and not “obnoxious”.

I have as mentioned:
AA catless headers
SS secondary cat deletes
Stock resonator/v pipe
AA anti drone muffler

I get more compliments on my exhaust than you can imagine. It’s perfect sound, mellow at cruise with zero drone. I get pops and backfires, mild burbles. It’s pretty much flow optimized but the sound is great. At cruise you can’t hear it from inside the cabin very mellow. Windows down at WOT it screams. I posted some YouTube videos on the last or second to last page in my “exhaust to go with AA headers thread”. It’s maybe 2-3 pages back on this forum.

I would strongly advise against a muffler delete. I can’t see anyone wanting to live with that drone and obnoxious level of volume all the time from no secondary cats, headers, and no muffler. That is just a bad idea right there.

Here’s a video at WOT passing through an underpass with windows down and open sunroof. It’s deafening under these conditions but extremely quiet when you don’t go WOT.



This is highway cruising with windows up:

This is exactly what I am looking for. My E82 128i has the AA catback exhaust/anti drone muffler and catless headers but stock secondaries and stock res.. I was gonna either do Supersprint Sec 1 delete with their tuned sec 2 res or keep my stock secondaries and do a Supersprint
Sec 2 delete.

How is the smell if any with your set up Biginboca?
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      04-08-2020, 12:53 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle1oh7 View Post
Quite a few guys don't do the muffler delete without the the secondaries. I am of the opinion of getting a BMW PE or other aftermarket muffler and use a resonator. My setup is Eisenmann catback and AA headers. No secondaries and it comes with a resonator, when fully warmed up it's quite mellow, but will scream and backfire when going WOT and downshifting aggressively, the exhaust shoots flames some times too lol
Does it smell?
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      04-08-2020, 01:17 AM   #107
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Does it smell?
My car stinks . But it doesn’t bother me really. Only if the car is idling for a while. My setup is aa headers, custom secondary delete, BMW pe mid pipe with a vibrant ultra quiet resonator welded in, pe muffler. Let me tell you the vibrant quieted a lot of the rasp out. If I were to sell my pe muffler and just place exhaust piping there I bet it would be quieter. Lol
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      04-08-2020, 03:58 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carscatscoffee15 View Post
This is exactly what I am looking for. My E82 128i has the AA catback exhaust/anti drone muffler and catless headers but stock secondaries and stock res.. I was gonna either do Supersprint Sec 1 delete with their tuned sec 2 res or keep my stock secondaries and do a Supersprint
Sec 2 delete.

How is the smell if any with your set up Biginboca?
The smell is strong when you smell it, but you will smell it pretty much only in 2 circumstances.

Coming to a red light with your window a down. (After you have stopped for a few seconds the exhaust wave catches up to the car and you smell it inside the car for about 10 seconds before it seems to mostly dissipate.)

If you have the car running and go to put something in the trunk.
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      04-08-2020, 12:07 PM   #109
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle1oh7 View Post
Quite a few guys don't do the muffler delete without the the secondaries. I am of the opinion of getting a BMW PE or other aftermarket muffler and use a resonator. My setup is Eisenmann catback and AA headers. No secondaries and it comes with a resonator, when fully warmed up it's quite mellow, but will scream and backfire when going WOT and downshifting aggressively, the exhaust shoots flames some times too lol
Does it smell?
The smell varies. Sometimes at the red light if there is no wind blowing or there is wind blowing in the other direction.
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      04-08-2020, 12:53 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle1oh7 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by carscatscoffee15 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle1oh7 View Post
Quite a few guys don't do the muffler delete without the the secondaries. I am of the opinion of getting a BMW PE or other aftermarket muffler and use a resonator. My setup is Eisenmann catback and AA headers. No secondaries and it comes with a resonator, when fully warmed up it's quite mellow, but will scream and backfire when going WOT and downshifting aggressively, the exhaust shoots flames some times too lol
Does it smell?
The smell varies. Sometimes at the red light if there is no wind blowing or there is wind blowing in the other direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biginboca View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by carscatscoffee15 View Post
This is exactly what I am looking for. My E82 128i has the AA catback exhaust/anti drone muffler and catless headers but stock secondaries and stock res.. I was gonna either do Supersprint Sec 1 delete with their tuned sec 2 res or keep my stock secondaries and do a Supersprint
Sec 2 delete.

How is the smell if any with your set up Biginboca?
The smell is strong when you smell it, but you will smell it pretty much only in 2 circumstances.

Coming to a red light with your window a down. (After you have stopped for a few seconds the exhaust wave catches up to the car and you smell it inside the car for about 10 seconds before it seems to mostly dissipate.)

If you have the car running and go to put something in the trunk.

how do you guys pass inspection with the headers for no cats at all? I'm just worried about that. If that's the case I might need to keep stock ones to swap out when inspection comes. I was also looking at the Supersprint HFCs but that might have to wait till I do my suspension work first and I haven't had much luck finding anyone's experience with those

would a muffler shop be able to fabricate high flow cats so I can have the best of both worlds? I'm also afraid my car will be overly loud with my current set up
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