[cjg]

Originally Posted by arguru

I've addressed you time and time again and all you seem to want to do is find any possible scenario that would make what happened tome completely invalid.

FYI, I had an actual BMW tech AT THEIR OWN DEALERSHIP tell me off the record that this isn't the first time this has happened.

To this day, you still haven't read the entire thread describing how this even came about. All you've done is try to discredit me with some type of bullshit half-assed inaccurate evidence in an attempt to claim BS on my story.

We get it, for whatever reason you want to stir the pot here, no matter how much credibility that I, as well as the rest of the members of this forum present otherwise, you still won't agree.

This is fine by me, but for your own sake, find something better to do with your time. If you insist on coming back to this thread repeatedly to try and discredit this situation, then at least get your facts straight and stop coming to your own conclusions based off of your speculation. Read the damn thread, read the manual. Stop being such a brat. Whether you like it or not, this is a serious issue and is being treated as such.

Just get a life man, seriously. I've explained my position enough times to you and enough is enough. You're not gonna work another response out of me over this.

Stop being so bitter. We're trying to solve a serious problem here, your motives are obviously elsewhere. We get that. Now please go read another post while we continue to work to solve this.

I feel as if I'm on some Prius forum and you are convinced that your car had "unintended acceleration", which the investigation found to be 100% driver error. But people at the time were sure convinced otherwise. Not sure how your "story" is somehow the cold hard facts of this case.

You made this public, so questions are going to be asked when reality seems to have been suspended.

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by cjg

I tend to agree with this. Has anyone every tired to drive without using the steering? Much less on the highway? If the connection to the wheels failed arguru would have crashed and burned. Lets all come back to reality for a minute.

Originally Posted by jalopnik

This is impossible. First off, the steering is not electric/mechanical like an infinity, it is regular old steering shaft/hydraulic assist.

... it has a fail safe, and, has no control over the actual steering. of the car, let alone physics.

I don't think this guy knows what he is talking about. Of all types of steering, I believe the speed sensitive variable ratio one like the Active Steering is the MOST LIKELY to cause this type of failure. Angle-dependent ratio rack like Porsche's still has a rigid connection to the front wheels, it just has a more interesting pinion gear. But as you can see from this post,

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...9&postcount=76

the Active Steering actually doesn't have a simple steering shaft. That is not to say that this type of failure is a certainty, I sure don't know that. But if he understood what the real issue was, he wouldn't be saying that the Active Steering is better in this regard than the electrically assisted racks because it is a hydraulic unit. We are not talking about the loss of steering assist. We are talking about the loss of steering itself.

Apart from that, it's all just anecdotal and historical generalities about BMW suspension system. Yawn.

Originally Posted by jalopnik

IMO this guy crashed his car, and is trying to pin it on BMW and the dealer as an easy out.

This is of course still a possibility. But based on what I know so far, I'm about 80% convinced that arguru is largely telling the truth. That is, there were serious error codes that dealer neglected, and his car did lose the ability to steer to a significant degree.

Whether it was a complete loss, or whether the GM really insulted him, are not terribly relevant. As long as the dealer ignored potentially serious fault codes, and as long as this type of failure is possible with the active steering, I think this story getting out serves the greater community well.

[TXAutoLaw]

Originally Posted by cjg

I feel as if I'm on some Prius forum and you are convinced that your car had "unintended acceleration", which the investigation found to be 100% driver error. But people at the time were sure convinced otherwise. Not sure how your "story" is somehow the cold hard facts of this case.

You made this public, so questions are going to be asked when reality seems to have been suspended.

Really? Which investigation was this? Exponent's? The consulting firm Toyota hired to "independently investigate" the defect. Do you have any idea of the history of Exponent? Exponent is the consulting firm hired by large corporations and the US government to cover up fault. The thousands of NHTSA complaints of SUA prior to the publication in 2009 must have been all driver error? I have a number of SUA cases and am part of the consumers advocacy group fighting over the defect. I've personally spoken to engineers from all over the world in meetings concerning SUA. It is a Toyota defect and not driver error.

The original case involved a Lexus ES350 in CA that experienced SUA on the highway. It would not allow him to shut the engine off and there was a neutral lockout. He was experiencing the event for so many minutes that he was able to dial 911. The vehicle kept going and ran out of highway. You should probably not go blasting bullshit about something you really know nothing about. Every engineering investigation other than Toyota's found that it was not driver error.

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by cjg

I feel as if I'm on some Prius forum and you are convinced that your car had "unintended acceleration", which the investigation found to be 100% driver error. But people at the time were sure convinced otherwise. Not sure how your "story" is somehow the cold hard facts of this case.

You made this public, so questions are going to be asked when reality seems to have been suspended.

For the record, I never believed the Prius acceleration story from the beginning. To me, arguru's story about the steering failure seems mechanically more plausible.

Let me ask this question to those that think that this type of failure is impossible.

It has been acknowledged as a real possibility with the Active Steering that, under certain electrical failure modes, the "center" of the steering may move. That is, you may have to turn your wheel 60 degrees to make your car go straight. This has happened to people, and is apparently a known failure mode. And my understanding is that where that new center will end up is largely random.

Now ask yourself this. What if your steering continues to experience this failure mode periodically? In that scenario, the center of the steering may change every time the system comes in and out of the failure mode. What if that period was a day? That is, today you have to turn it 30 degrees to the right to make the car go straight, and tomorrow it's 40 degrees to the left. Now what if that period was a second? Wouldn't that be equivalent to the total loss of steering?

Now, all of this is just a conjecture. But while I'm not a steering engineer, I do have a technical background, and it is not clear to me at all as to why this type of failure is impossible, given the design of the system, barring fail safes. So until someone shows me how the fail safe works to prevent this, I cannot simply "believe" that this is impossible. Everyone can make a mistake. That includes BMW engineers.

[TXAutoLaw]

Originally Posted by Propagator

For the record, I never believed the Prius acceleration story from the beginning. To me, arguru's story about the steering failure seems mechanically more plausible.

Probably because you didn't know all the facts. The news media only reports what it knows and more importantly, what it wants.

[cjg]

Originally Posted by TXAutoLaw

Really? Which investigation was this? Exponent's? The consulting firm Toyota hired to "independently investigate" the defect. Do you have any idea of the history of Exponent? Exponent is the consulting firm hired by large corporations and the US government to cover up fault. The thousands of NHTSA complaints of SUA prior to the publication in 2009 must have been all driver error? I have a number of SUA cases and am part of the consumers advocacy group fighting over the defect. I've personally spoken to engineers from all over the world in meetings concerning SUA. It is a Toyota defect and not driver error. You should probably not go blasting bullshit about something you know nothing about. Every engineering investigation other than Toyota's found that it was not driver error.

Yes you are wrong. I read the NHTSA report, which I will attach for your reading pleasure. Sorry if this will take away from some of your lawsuits. You should really get informed before you spew BS like this. You give lawyers a bad name.

[cjg]

Here is the NHTSA press release for all to see (nothing wrong with the cars, just stupid drivers, and stupid lawyers-TXAutoLaw)

WASHINGTON, DC -- The U.S. Department of Transportation released results from an unprecedented ten-month study of potential electronic causes of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) launched the study last spring at the request of Congress, and enlisted NASA engineers with expertise in areas such as computer controlled electronic systems, electromagnetic interference and software integrity to conduct new research into whether electronic systems or electromagnetic interference played a role in incidents of unintended acceleration.

NASA engineers found no electronic flaws in Toyota vehicles capable of producing the large throttle openings required to create dangerous high-speed unintended acceleration incidents. The two mechanical safety defects identified by NHTSA more than a year ago – “sticking” accelerator pedals and a design flaw that enabled accelerator pedals to become trapped by floor mats – remain the only known causes for these kinds of unsafe unintended acceleration incidents. Toyota has recalled nearly 8 million vehicles in the United States for these two defects.

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said, “We enlisted the best and brightest engineers to study Toyota’s electronics systems, and the verdict is in. There is no electronic-based cause for unintended high-speed acceleration in Toyotas."

In conducting their report, NASA engineers evaluated the electronic circuitry in Toyota vehicles and analyzed more than 280,000 lines of software code for any potential flaws that could initiate an unintended acceleration incident. At the Goddard Space Flight Center in Maryland, NASA hardware and systems engineers rigorously examined and tested mechanical components of Toyota vehicles that could result in an unwanted throttle opening. At a special facility in Michigan, NHTSA and NASA engineers bombarded vehicles with electromagnetic radiation to study whether such radiation could cause malfunctions resulting in unintended acceleration. NHTSA engineers and researchers also tested Toyota vehicles at NHTSA’s Vehicle Research and Test Center in East Liberty, Ohio to determine whether there were any additional mechanical causes for unintended acceleration and whether any of the test scenarios developed during the NHTSA-NASA investigation could actually occur in real-world conditions.

"NASA found no evidence that a malfunction in electronics caused large unintended accelerations," said Michael Kirsch, Principal Engineer at the NASA Engineering and Safety Center (NESC).

While NASA and NHTSA have identified no electronic cause of dangerous unintended acceleration incidents in Toyota vehicles or any new mechanical causes beyond sticking pedals and accelerator pedal entrapment, NHTSA is considering taking several new actions as the result of today’s findings, including:

■Propose rules, by the end of 2011, to require brake override systems, to standardize operation of keyless ignition systems, and to require the installation of event data recorders in all passenger vehicles;
■Begin broad research on the reliability and security of electronic control systems;
■Research the placement and design of accelerator and brake pedals, as well as driver usage of pedals, to determine whether design and placement can be improved to reduce pedal misapplication.
NHTSA and NASA will also brief the National Academy of Sciences panel currently conducting a broad review of unintended acceleration and electronic throttle control systems on the reports released today.

“While today marks the end of our study with NASA, our work to protect millions of American drivers continues,” said NHTSA Administrator David Strickland. “The record number of voluntary recalls initiated by automakers last year is also very good news, and shows that we can work cooperatively with industry to protect consumers."

Based on objective event data recorder (EDR) readings and crash investigations conducted as part of NHTSA’s report, NHTSA is researching whether better placement and design of accelerator and brake pedals can reduce pedal misapplication, which occurs in vehicles across the industry. NHTSA’s forthcoming rulemaking to require brake override systems in all passenger vehicles will further help ensure that braking can take precedence over the accelerator pedal in emergency situations. The ongoing National Academy of Sciences study, which will examine unintended acceleration and electronic vehicle controls across the entire automotive industry, will also make recommendations to NHTSA. The NAS study was launched in spring 2010 alongside the NHTSA-NASA investigation and will be finalized later in 2011.

In 2009 and 2010, Toyota recalled nearly eight million vehicles as part of the sticky pedal and pedal entrapment recalls. Toyota also paid $48.8 million in civil penalties as the result of NHTSA investigations into the timeliness of several safety recalls last year. Across the industry, automakers voluntarily initiated a record number of safety recalls in 2010.

[TXAutoLaw]

Originally Posted by cjg

Yes you are wrong. I read the NHTSA report, which I will attach for your reading pleasure. Sorry if this will take away from some of your lawsuits. You should really get informed before you spew BS like this. You give lawyers a bad name.

Have you read NHTSA engineering data or just this conclusion? I suppose you think government agencies don't cover anything up? NHTSA had to answer for not investigating the claims for years and then half-assed investigating. The Feb. 2011 report you posted was not even supported by proper engineering analysis. They find nothing wrong, but are considering recommending brake-override mandate. Why, if nothing was defective?

You read a few pages of something and that equates to 100's of thousands of pages that have been created. You're right, I should get informed. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I hope you're not representative of all other members here using name calling and attacking someone's work when you don't even know who they are.

You're a cynic and that's why you're playing devil's advocate in this thread. Defects exist....and people die as a result. Most people take this shit seriously.

/threadjack

[cjg]

Originally Posted by TXAutoLaw

Have you read NHTSA engineering data or just this conclusion? I suppose you think government agencies don't cover anything up? NHTSA had to answer for not investigating the claims for years and then half-assed investigating. The Feb. 2011 report you posted was not even supported by proper engineering analysis.

You're right, I should get informed. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Yes, I analyzed all 280,000 lines of code as NASA engineers did. You got burned, move on. I bet there some hot coffee spilling right now.

[trialskid]

Originally Posted by cjg

Here is the NHTSA press release for all to see (nothing wrong with the cars, just stupid drivers, and stupid lawyers-TXAutoLaw)

That says they found no electronic flaws

I'm a tech at a gm dealership and we had to do 3 different safety recalls on the vibe (same car) that had nothing to do with the electronics of the vehicle

We had to cut a piece of the floor out, trim the gas pedal down, and install a spacer in the pedal to increase spring resistance.

Just because they said it wasn't something electrical doesn't mean there wasn't a problem

[JaySC]

This is my first post on e90post, let's get that out of the way. I've been a stalker here and over on e46fanatics for quite some time, and just recently registered there as well (maybe a month ago).

I decided that despite not owning an e90 that I would go on and register as I may have something to contribute to this thread and to you, arguru.

I've posted this on Facebook and petitioned some friends specifically to spread this to their online forums, I've posted it on other forums that I frequent, and I've posted a review on DealerReview. Arguru, I'm with you man, and I'll do what I can to help out.

cjg - Give it a rest man. You don't have anything to prove and no one is reading this thread in order to hear your uninformed and uneducated (in these matters) opinion on an unrelated topic.

Hopefully some of you will find the following info useful:

Robert Dombrowski is on LinkedIn:

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-d...ski/14/89b/358

Looks like Jon Wiggins, the Area VP for Penske AG's Phoenix, AZ region is as well:

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jon-wiggins/a/601/177

Here's Robert Kurnick Jr., the President of Penske AG:

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-kurnick-jr/6/843/a53

You'll find a number of others if you log in and use the "people who viewed this profile also viewed these other profiles" feature to the right hand side. This, if nothing else, makes it easier to get names than trying to use google to gain the same results.

Arguru, again man, good luck in this. Don't give up! If it takes a lawsuit to get things set straight, then so be it. You have to have more resolve than they do. Like I said, if I can help, let me know.

[efdiesel3s]

The situation you describe is very similar to the one I had. I got that warning light § to take the car into service and took it into crevier bmw in santa ana. My service advisor told me that it was an emissions thing that was not required because were in california and just turned it off and I was on my way. About a month passes, I change my tires and I get the yellow brake and dct lights just like you. When these lights are on I believe you have no ABS and traction control so I drove very carefully. I searched on the forums and they always claim these lights are because of the steering angle sensor which happened to be the case. My service advisor told me that the sensor was out of range and just needed to be reset.

[aykim2188]

http://jalopnik.com/5873397/did-a-de...-dangerous-bmw

I'm sure other people have mentioned it but glad to see that it is finally on jalopnik!

[me11ada]

OP;

Good luck with this and hopefully will get resolved soon.....I don't know how I got onto this post but have been catching up and a couple of hours reading later.....can't believe you've been such a nice guy about it for such a long time.

in my opinion I think RJ may have been working for the dealer in some capacity to get the situation resolved or 'to put an end to it' - but having read this thread and the original thread I thought you'd answered his questions already, (apologies to RJ if your not).

Just lending support from across the pond, again good luck and it certainly has gone viral!!

C

[335Newbie]

Wouldn't it be interesting to be a fly on the wall at Penske/North Scottsdale. To see and hear some of the conversations and whisperings, moods of the staff, newly implemented policies about code readings, and what can and can't be said to customers would be fascinating.

[andrewket]

Originally Posted by andrewket

For what it's worth, imho Richard Jones is being accused of working for your dealer because he is asking logical questions using proper grammar and complete sentences. My guess is that he is an attorney or other professional in which he writes documents for a living. Hardly sufficient evidence that he in fact works for your dealer or BMW.

Sooo.. I was wrong. Sorry about that. I hope you get your answers and your car fixed. I had active steering on my last car ('07 335 E93) and I have it on my current car ('11 335is E93), so I'm personally interested to learn if AS has a problem.

A

[Quisp]

Is that the same NHTSA that investigated the N54 fuel pump issue in 2007-2008 and determined that there was nothing wrong with it.
Having dealt with BMWNA legal dept already I can say that it is a very frustratiing and exhausting adventure but if you have the facts behind you and do not let them wear you down it will work out for you.
They just announced a proposed settlement for something that began years ago which many thought was a waste of time.
Stick with it and let the facts speak for you. Nobody(and no company) is too big to be held accountable for their actions.

[bas2000]

Good Luck OP!

Just wait until one of the news networks covers this story like the HPFP where BMWNA refused to admit there was any issue until after the story broadcasted.

Ohh wait, there's no problem but now we'll do a voluntary recall and increase the warranty but there's still no problem. Yeah right!

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/bmw-adm...5#.TwcUwNRSQzA

[TheStigsTwin]

Originally Posted by 335Newbie

Wouldn't it be interesting to be a fly on the wall at Penske/North Scottsdale. To see and hear some of the conversations and whisperings, moods of the staff, newly implemented policies about code readings, and what can and can't be said to customers would be fascinating.

It's hard to change a mindset that has been in place literally for decades.

[roberts5831]

Originally Posted by cjg

Yes, I analyzed all 280,000 lines of code as NASA engineers did. You got burned, move on. I bet there some hot coffee spilling right now.

@cjg - stop trying to pick a fight.. we all know you dont agree with whats going on, lets leave it at that.

p.s. who supercharges an m3? lol are u driving a muscle car?? lol

[cjg]

Originally Posted by roberts5831

@cjg - stop trying to pick a fight.. we all know you dont agree with whats going on, lets leave it at that.

p.s. who supercharges an m3? lol are u driving a muscle car?? lol

If you have nothing to add, be it for or against in this tread please refrain from posting.

p.s. because of ignorant people such as yourself...

Originally Posted by roberts5831

i have an 08 335i sedan. it is a e90 or e92? i dont understand how my could be a e90 and then others with at 07 are a e92. am i missing something here??!

[roberts5831]

Originally Posted by cjg

If you have nothing to add, be it for or against in this tread please refrain from posting.

p.s. because of ignorant people such as yourself...

we all cant be experts like yourself