[SSW]

Originally Posted by Larsim

What many miss is the fact that many BMW owners don't have the time due to their busy professional careers to spend 4-5 hours on any given week fixing their vehicle. So the thought of dropping off your car, getting a nice loaner and avoiding hassles is very appealing to many (if not most). And of course, BMW (as do the other high-end car brands) knows this and builds their business model around that.

That's pretty much how I feel.

The water/thermostat repair that I had done for $1300 was done by a local non-specialty shop that I frequent because I know the mechanic and he does good work. Didn't hurt they they gave me a free ride to/from the shop. Could have had it done for maybe $200-300 less (as others have done) but it was a long drive to the shops that I didn't have any prior experience with. The extra $ didn't matter to me; the inconvenience and lack of experience w/the other shops did.

The last work I had done (not a repair) at 95k miles was a complete fluid/filter change -- engine, trans and diff -- was done at a specialty shop that gave me a free car and the best customer service that I've had in a long time. The fluid change (including around $300 for the new trans pan that has a built in filter that has to be replaced altogether -- another dumb BMW design) cost $1200. Yeah, I probably could have done it myself and saved as much as $500-700, but what a messy PITA that would have been! I can afford to pay for the work and I'd rather have it done by someone else.

Now, I've got 2 other "repair" jobs pending:

1) Replace uppper/lower control arms and front sway bar. Only the upper (thrust arm) bushings need to be replaced but I plan to replace all of these items w/M3 parts just to upgrade the front end. Estimated cost $640 for labor and $615 for parts from Turner. Total $1255 plus alignment. Expect the total cost to be closer to $1500. Planning to do have this work done in Spring 2016.

2) Replace oil pan gasket which requires lifting the entire subframe (dumb!!!). Estimated cost $1500. There's a DIY thread for this but I'm not going to try to drop the subframe myself. Going to let a shop do it IF I have to have the work done but it's not high on my priority list unless I see puddles of oil under the car.

Just more stuff to do. Problem is, I really love the car when I drive it and I've already put too much $ in the car to dump it. Fact is, the car is virtually brand new now. See my Build Thread for specifics. So, for better or worse, it's mine for the long haul.

Oh well . . .

[Nitrousbird]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I find this type of comparison funny. You really don't understand business. The cost to the dealership is not as simple as paying a tech $45 an hour to change out the spark plugs. You bought a BMW, which is considered a luxury vehicle, so that means the customers who buy a 7 Series expect free fancy coffee, a free loaner car, or a free shuttle ride to work, a car wash, and a pleasant facility to stay while the car is being serviced if they decide to wait. All that costs money and is built into the shop rate. Additionally the dealer is paying business taxes, real estate taxes, payroll taxes, health care, business insurance, parts and labor warranty, a logistics organization to maintain parts stock, and a cadre of people to support the customer's every whim, on top of amortization of the buildings, infrastructure, and other facilities, and financing the money to pay for all that.

You think you paid $70 and some of your time to change the plugs. Add in your proportional property taxes, square footage of your garage used for the hour and a half you took to change the plugs, part of your other car's car payment and insurance (so you could transport yourself around while you car was plugless if need be), a few cups of coffee from your coffee maker (and throw in the some of the cost of the coffee maker - and some of the cost to go to the store to have coffee to make the beverage). Oh, and the cost of the tools you needed to do the work. It's obviously not $650 but I'd bet it adds up to a few hundred dollars.

Wait a minute.

It's not a 1.5 hour job. I did mine in my driveway and timed myself. First time ever doing them, in my driveway, from time I walked out of my house to back in, start to finish (including gapping the plugs), 50 minutes. Call it an hour labor. You are telling me an hour labor is worth $530? Ferrari doesn't even charge that kind of labor rate.

As for cost of tools; $25 BMW socket (or less). Rest of the tools are very basic and could be had for $10 if you Harbor Freight it, $30-40 if you go the Sears route. Then you have those tools forever for all future jobs.

[motoguy128]

I did the plugs on my motorcycle (600cc sportbike) 10 years ago. It required removing all the front body work, fuel tank, airbox intake manifold and radiator.

I suspect the plugs on the E90 won't be too bad.

[techie182]

Dude went to dealership. I think $1300 USD seems about right for dealership price.
Should've went to indy shop. You can haggle price if you pay cash and also price will be cheaper than dealership to begin with.

[Pierce330]

Originally Posted by bimmette

Holy shit.

This job is a $1000 job (with labour). Wow

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by Larsim

What many miss is the fact that many BMW owners don't have the time due to their busy professional careers to spend 4-5 hours on any given week fixing their vehicle. So the thought of dropping off your car, getting a nice loaner and avoiding hassles is very appealing to many (if not most). And of course, BMW (as do the other high-end car brands) knows this and builds their business model around that.

that's definitely true and understandable (I've had to make those choices before). But don't complain when you get arse raped over labor costs if it makes more sense to pay for it than to DIY (not that the OP doesn't have a real grievance with the dealers double dip).

personally, DIY is just in my blood. My dad never took a car to a shop once in his life. Now, he generally drove things into the ground and didn't fix anything until it was really, really, really broken (like a starter motor with a bad solenoid - he kept a hammer in the engine bay of his truck so he could smack it every morning to get it to start). But, even if sometimes I could spend my time doing something else, I just have a hard time handing over my hard earned money on something I could easily do myself.

I'm not sure that many people here actually make more money in an hour that it makes sense to pay $650 for a spark plug change though.

[Wilt]

Originally Posted by SSW

The last work I had done (not a repair) at 95k miles was a complete fluid/filter change -- engine, trans and diff -- was done at a specialty shop that gave me a free car and the best customer service that I've had in a long time. The fluid change (including around $300 for the new trans pan that has a built in filter that has to be replaced altogether -- another dumb BMW design) cost $1200. .

ZF designed and provides the 335i tranny to BMW, blame them!!! One could say they are covering your A$$ by having a more frequent mileage interval for fluid change than the GM tranny, heck the GM tranny was at 100K intervals before LCI update changed to 60K. The GM A/T for the 328i has a replaceable filter element in their A/T, so cheaper, less frequent and less durable!

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

But, even if sometimes I could spend my time doing something else, I just have a hard time handing over my hard earned money on something I could easily do myself.

I'm not sure that many people here actually make more money in an hour that it makes sense to pay $650 for a spark plug change though.

The issue, when you are working long hours and have a family and home to support and upkeep, is your own TIME is often the least available resource, so sitting on the garage floor under your car is 3-5 fewer hours to attend to the things needing to be done around the house, or attending to members of your own family! I see too many DIYers who fail to recognize that not all of us drink beer in front of the TV all the time, so we cannot necessarily alter how we spend our idle moments. My stepdaughter, who is married to the Head Athletic Trainer of a Div. I college sports team can tell you how seldom she even SEES her husband during waking hours.

Too long ago I was a university student and did all my own maintenance and repairs, with only a very few exceptions, but back then you didn't have to spend many additional hours simply to get to the part that needed replacing! I tore down an engine on Friday night, got new parts and machining done on Saturday, reassembled it on Sunday...overhauled an engine in a weekend of my time. In contrast it took several hours for me to simply replace a lower radiator hose in a BMW once.
...It couldabeen 1) release hose clamps, 2)slide off hose, 3) slide on hose, 4) reclamp hose, but instead you had to remove so many other things just to get the hose off, turning a 20 minute task unexpectedly into hours! Instead I had to A)remove alternator, B)remove radiator, C) 1) release hose clamps, C2)slide off hose, C3) slide on hose, C4) reclamp hose, D) reinstall all removed items.
Today, add even more complexity imposed by emissions, power optimization, fuel economy optimation, and the result is exponential complexity growth simply to get to a part. Cannot simply slide in under car, you have to remove the underpanels to get at anything, and that is the simplest task you need to do!

[Vitalität]

Originally Posted by Braumin

I'll be calling them tomorrow. It's so dishonest. I'm sure they just expect most people to not know that the thermostat is bolted to the water pump. Which of course puts everything else they do into question.

The issue, when you are working long hours and have a family and home to support and upkeep, is your own TIME is often the least available resource, so sitting on the garage floor under your car is 3-5 fewer hours to attend to the things needing to be done around the house, or attending to members of your own family! I see too many DIYers who fail to recognize that not all of us drink beer in front of the TV all the time, so we cannot necessarily alter how we spend our idle moments. My daughter in law, who is married to the Athletic Trainer of a Div. I college sports team can tell you how seldom she even SEES her husband during waking hours.

Labor cost for BMW vehicles are typically high. I suggest if you want to stay with BMW vehicles, you should start learning how to do DIY. Parts are affordable, the only problem is the labor. I only go to dealer/indy when it requires programming, other than that, it's all me. I understand you're a busy man, but you will keep on dealing with these costs in the future and it will not stop. If you want to see lower figures, I would suggest get a base model Corolla or a Civic.

PS - Folks that have a career and hardly been seen by their spouses and drives a bimmer often pays for the cost of maintenance and repairs on their vehicles without any question. Them being away most of the time makes them afford these costs.

[Bimmerforlife]

This is nothing, just don't ever let your a/c evaporator ever go out outside of warranty, the dealership wants $2800.00 to $3000.00 for parts and labor.

[mweisdorfer]

Originally Posted by Braumin

Water pump failed on my N54 last week. Normally I do my own work but due to time constraints I had it towed to the dealer. Looks like they charged me $1000 labor on the water pump and thermostat.

Digging into it (and it's not easy to figure out since they obscure the cost) they charged me $155 diagnostics (fine, whatever) $464.90 labor on the water pump, and another $387.50 labor to do the thermostat.

Anyone have the actual retail job hours for this job? I'm going to have to "discuss" this with them but charging full retail for the thermostat as if it's a separate job is pretty underhanded. I knew it wasn't going to be cheap, but it appears they charged me full retail labor on the thermostat as if they didn't already have the water pump removed.

If you have the right tools, you can do this yourself for about $500-600.00 depending on if there is a sale etc. I did this with a buddy of mine and it took about 4 hours.

[kkasson]

Originally Posted by Nitrousbird

Wait a minute.

It's not a 1.5 hour job. I did mine in my driveway and timed myself. First time ever doing them, in my driveway, from time I walked out of my house to back in, start to finish (including gapping the plugs), 50 minutes. Call it an hour labor. You are telling me an hour labor is worth $530? Ferrari doesn't even charge that kind of labor rate.

As for cost of tools; $25 BMW socket (or less). Rest of the tools are very basic and could be had for $10 if you Harbor Freight it, $30-40 if you go the Sears route. Then you have those tools forever for all future jobs.

I don't know what exactly the book time actually is for changing the plugs, but another reason the time is higher than it actually takes to do the job is that it needs to account for the cases where something goes wrong...it will take 50 minutes on a good day, but there will inevitably be times where a car comes in and one of the spark plugs is already stripped, or the plug breaks when you're taking it out, or the head strips and needs to be helicoiled, etc.

That stuff doesn't happen very often, but it happens enough that the mechanic would lose lots and lots of time (and therefore money) if the book didn't account for it somewhat. That doesn't explain all of the extra cost, but it's another part of it.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Nitrousbird

Wait a minute.

It's not a 1.5 hour job. I did mine in my driveway and timed myself. First time ever doing them, in my driveway, from time I walked out of my house to back in, start to finish (including gapping the plugs), 50 minutes. Call it an hour labor. You are telling me an hour labor is worth $530? Ferrari doesn't even charge that kind of labor rate.

As for cost of tools; $25 BMW socket (or less). Rest of the tools are very basic and could be had for $10 if you Harbor Freight it, $30-40 if you go the Sears route. Then you have those tools forever for all future jobs.

You are missing my point. First, I never said how long the job was but that's not material to my point. The issue is based on what the dealer's cost structure is, comparing his price to a DIY job is apples and oranges. You just can't say that you spent $70 to get new plugs as compared to a dealership who charges $600. I merely tried to point out that (in your case) there are costs that you are not including as part of your repair costs that the dealer must charge you as recovery of the cost of him doing business. It is expensive for the dealer to provide and maintain the facilities and services he provides to offer you a repair service.

So let me ask you. Did you review a DIY or two on how to perform the plug replacement? I bet you did. How much do you think the value is for that information? Us DIY geeks enjoy this as a hobby and write up DIYs for repairs for free. At the dealership you are paying for a BMW certified tech to do the work for you. His training and experience is a cost component of the price being charged by the dealer.

[Braumin]

This has kind of turned into two discussions.

1. I know fixing a BMW is not cheap. Even though it costs more and the fact I can afford to pay what I was originally asked to pay doesn't mean I like getting ripped off.

2. Yes I could do this myself. I was an automotive tech for several years. Yes I normally do my own work. Yes it saves me money. But sometimes you don't have time to fix something that needs to be fixed like right now. Still doesn't mean I should be ripped off.

[JunkStory]

I DIY'd my waterpump + thermostat and it's possibly one of the most difficult things I've done, and there were moments I thought I couldn't complete it and would have to get the car towed to a shop to finish it.

I'm not a very mechanically savvy person and I think it took me about 10 hours over two days, plus lots of Googling/E90Post to finish it. All in all, I am glad that I DIY'd it and I can totally understand why some people would want to pay for the service.

If the USD isn't so high, you could source the parts yourself online and save a few dollars.

[Efthreeoh]

Not to drag this out any longer, but an observation from the field yesterday. So I was doing the 50,000 mile maintenance on my Hummer H3. Drive line component flushes, and a tune up (plugs and airfilter). The air filter... In the Hummer it literally is a 3 minute replacement. The air box is hinged at the back side with two spring clips, one at the front and on the right side. The procedure is disconnect the MAF harness (easy to get to as it is on the top of the intake box). Remove the intake tube, one hose band and it pops right off. Unsnap the two clips. Unhinge the top from the bottom. Pull the filter out and replace. The filter is indexed to the box and says "UP". Tools needed? Flat-blade screw driver. Simple....

The E90 N52: Remove the air intake snout (two torx screws). Remove intake snorkel from snout to air box - easy. Disconnect MAF - not hard. Remove intake tube from bottom of air box - buried below the fender wall and power steering reservoir - leave some skin so the next owner can get your DNA - PIA. Unscrew two 10MM bolts on the fender - don't lose the grommets! Lift the airbox out - oops, make sure the little half-ball isolator doesn't fall off into the engine bay abyss - did you even know it was there? Take the box over to the work bench, remove the 6 torx screws. Separate the box. Drop in the trapezoid-shaped filter (i.e. - expensive to produce). Reassemble - can you even see if the intake tube is properly seated? NO!... Even of you are familiar with it, it's a good 1/2 half hour to remove and replace. tools needed: two torx drivers, 5.5MM nut driver, 10MM socket wrench, flat blade screwdriver.

BMWs are just over-complicated over-engineered machines that are expensive to pay someone to work on. But they drive great.

[hassmaschine]

They weren't always built like that though - you had an E30, those were really easy to work on, as were the E36 and probably even the E46 to some extent. I'm not sure why BMW used screws on the airbox instead of clips like everyone else (and BMWS of yore). But the N52 airbox is definitely a pain in the ass - the only reason I'd really consider a euro box is because you don't have to disassemble the whole thing to change the filter.

Here's another one - light bulbs. Historically ridiculously easy on past BMWs. Now you have to take off the fucking wheel first and all the undertray? WTF?

the accessibility of the waterpump is almost unforgivable, but my theory is they were never supposed to fail at all, so they didn't spend much effort making them easy to repair. oops.

luckily the E90 is solid enough that I don't usually have to do a whole lot to them..

[Wilt]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

BMWs are just over-complicated over-engineered machines that are expensive to pay someone to work on. But they drive great.

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

They weren't always built like that though - you had an E30, those were really easy to work on, as were the E36 and probably even the E46 to some extent. I'm not sure why BMW used screws on the airbox instead of clips like everyone else (and BMWS of yore). But the N52 airbox is definitely a pain in the ass - the only reason I'd really consider a euro box is because you don't have to disassemble the whole thing to change the filter.

Here's another one - light bulbs. Historically ridiculously easy on past BMWs. Now you have to take off the fucking wheel first and all the undertray? WTF?

the accessibility of the waterpump is almost unforgivable, but my theory is they were never supposed to fail at all, so they didn't spend much effort making them easy to repair. oops.

luckily the E90 is solid enough that I don't usually have to do a whole lot to them..

^^^ I had an E46 (after a number of other BMW E21, multiple E30s), and it had

• a relatively simple design engine,
• no electronic communication bus to link multiple modules that all need to handshake properly;
• only a few sensors (the dang electronic oil sensor only lied, but you could prove it wrong with a dipstick and its malfunction affected nothing else at all -- unlike the E90).

Now you have

• sensors for variable cam angle, steering angle, wheel rotation, ad infinitum
• sensors that go wrong inside the engine and sensors that go wrong inside the passenger compartment,
• sophisticated A/C programs that defy explanation in the owner guide,
• dash lights up like an Xmas tree or tons of error codes, all simply because the battery is low...
• error codes that are sometime no better than telling the doctor the very vagues, "It hurts", because the root cause of the problem can be in one of several places.

Oy vey!

It isn't all BMW's fault, TPMS system was forced on the US by bureaucrats (and not the rest of the world), MPG and emissions goals were set upon the car manufacturers of the world, but the Germans were simply stupid about the electronic dipstick. You can have oil condition monitoring in one sensor, the dipstick on another sensor, and still have a real dipstick poking down a hole to the sump.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

They weren't always built like that though - you had an E30, those were really easy to work on, as were the E36 and probably even the E46 to some extent. I'm not sure why BMW used screws on the airbox instead of clips like everyone else (and BMWS of yore). But the N52 airbox is definitely a pain in the ass - the only reason I'd really consider a euro box is because you don't have to disassemble the whole thing to change the filter.

Here's another one - light bulbs. Historically ridiculously easy on past BMWs. Now you have to take off the fucking wheel first and all the undertray? WTF?

the accessibility of the waterpump is almost unforgivable, but my theory is they were never supposed to fail at all, so they didn't spend much effort making them easy to repair. oops.

luckily the E90 is solid enough that I don't usually have to do a whole lot to them..

The E30 was easy to work on and BMW designed them that way. The blower fan... piece of cake. Fuel pump - too easy. Heater core? OMG! every car should be designed like the E30 - takes a half hour to change it. I find the E90 easy to work on too, but I've got a lift and air tools... I do like cars having self diagnostics, I think it makes it easier to diagnose problems.

[ArfMeow]

Mine is being replaced as we speak, quoted just over $1,000 for Water Pump + Thermostat
Failed at 153KM

[Gizm0]

Seeing the insane dealer quotes, I'm glad I replaced mine myself as a preventive maintenance last week at 140k... Cost me $350 in parts and it was a 4 hours DIY.

[Fnne99]

Just had it this done and had it covered on my 3rd party warranty but without it, the bill would have been $940.

[siphor1989]

Just recently did mine myself and the water pump only cost me $380 CAD... One of the perks of working at a dealer.