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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Has anyone contacted BMW regarding 29.2 and lag?



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      10-23-2008, 12:51 PM   #2443
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This is why there are 6-7 of us who keep a dedicated PM list to discuss outside of this thread. I know some of you build engines and race formula cars as your second occupation and that is great. The bottom line is the guys that had pre 29.2 cars and were upgraded noticed a dramatic change in the characteristics of the car. Was there hardware updates performed, no. A DME update was performed that reduced the acceleration, decreased mpg's and increased the amount of time it took for our turbo's to spool along with increasing the decibel of the exhaust dramatically. Call it what you want as I/we do not care. All I know is that for many of us it is not the car we bought and we simply just want a fix to return it back to the same condition it was in when we purchased it.
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      10-23-2008, 01:08 PM   #2444
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I don't understand the slicing of hairs that goes on in this thread. If the waste gates are open, thus causing the turbo to not spin up, that would appear to the driver as lag. Which in fact it does.

Can we agree on Lag-like? Nah, why dilute the description? It's lag.

It's a "software programed delay in waste-gate actuation that causes the disappearance of previously existing linear power below 3000 RPM."

Does that work?

Sincerely lagging,

-Bill
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      10-23-2008, 01:23 PM   #2445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tschuss View Post

It's a "software programed delay in waste-gate actuation that causes the disappearance of previously existing linear power below 3000 RPM."

Does that work?

-Bill
Beautifully said!!! Although you can add several other characteristics that were introduced after the software upgrade but we can leave it at that. to me it's like coming home to this every night



and then you start coming home to this. (My apologies if this is somebody's wife/girlfriend....she is cute...really)

Last edited by Prof3ssor; 10-24-2008 at 01:47 PM..
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      10-23-2008, 01:40 PM   #2446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tschuss View Post
I don't understand the slicing of hairs that goes on in this thread. If the waste gates are open, thus causing the turbo to not spin up, that would appear to the driver as lag. Which in fact it does.

Can we agree on Lag-like? Nah, why dilute the description? It's lag.

It's a "software programed delay in waste-gate actuation that causes the disappearance of previously existing linear power below 3000 RPM."

Does that work?

Sincerely lagging,

-Bill
Women aside.....I know I described the original car as a beast but that seems more in line with the 2nd pic.

It may seem like splitting hairs but I wouldn't choose such a long statement "software programed delay in waste-gate actuation that causes the disappearance of previously existing linear power below 3000 RPM.", this is simply deliberate de-tuning.

Please understand that I would love my car to behave like a pre-29.2 beast. But I cannot honestly say that my July 08 build with (I believe) 30.0.2 performs as badly as some of the cars upgraded/de-tuned with 29.2.

Hear what I'm saying....I don't think any of the 29.2 / 30.0.2 car perform properly but I suspect they don't all perform the same, some are worse than others. WHY?
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      10-23-2008, 01:54 PM   #2447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clivem2 View Post
some are worse than others. WHY?
There has got to be a logic behind it.

DME version?
SW?
Body style?
AT / MT?
i or xi?
Euro / U.S?
wheelsize?
Cool dude driving?
moron driving?
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      10-23-2008, 02:24 PM   #2448
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I believe I am one of the "original six" and I'll just spill the beans that my car has been confirmed to have developed software AND hardware issues. Even after they updated the software, my wastegates started rattling, so the software alone is not a cure-all for the original problem it was intended to solve. To me, this suggests that software alone may not solve The Lag.

First they replaced the wastegate actuators, but that did not remove all the noises. So, now they are replacing the turbos, under warranty.

On the term of The Lag, I prefer to use the capitalized version, because the tuner nerds will never let us hear the end of it if we just call it "lag." Capitalized, "The Lag" refers to whatever it is that has weakened our cars such that they are not the same as when we originally purchased them. We covered this like 100 pages ago. I drove this thing since 2006, for more than 15k miles before it was detuned. I don't care what you call it, it's not the same car I picked up in Munich. Funny thing about the semantics is, I always called it "throttle response" when dealing with BMWNA, and THEY responded to me by calling it lag. Their word, not mine.

Anyway, back on topic... it seems as though some of the variance we've experienced here could be due to hardware degradation. After BMWNA confirmed that they detuned the car to address problems in the turbos, I asked them what if my turbos were already "damaged" by the old software, and they did not have a response for me. Sure enough, a few days later, I get the confirmation that the turbos are messed up, despite having 29.2.

So, maybe the pre-29.2 actuators became "sticky" or something, thus exacerbating the detuning and exhaust noises for some of us, whereas new '08 owners have not yet put enough wear on their turbos to really notice it, and may never do so due to the new software.

Once I get my car back, I should be able to offer the unique perspective of someone who had pre-29.2 with new turbos, pre-29.2 with worn turbos, post-29.2 with damaged turbos, and post-29.2 with new turbos...
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      10-23-2008, 03:04 PM   #2449
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If you look on RealOEM at the turbos for N54 engine you will see that BMW is in their fourth (yes, 4) revision (e.i., 4 pairs of part numbers for the pair of turbos.)

Obviously something has changed. RealOEM, unfortunately, does not show dates for when they appeared.
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      10-23-2008, 03:06 PM   #2450
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I just had my first oil service done on the car. After driving off the dealer lot, the car felt like it had lost torque. Is it even possible for the dealer to have done a software update as my car was only in service for 1.5 hours?

Or could the car feel this way because of the fresh oil change?

In addition to this, I also had to reset the time and date on the iDrive. Any reason why I had to do this when only a oil change was performed?
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      10-23-2008, 03:41 PM   #2451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYPWR View Post
I just had my first oil service done on the car. After driving off the dealer lot, the car felt like it had lost torque. Is it even possible for the dealer to have done a software update as my car was only in service for 1.5 hours?

Or could the car feel this way because of the fresh oil change?

In addition to this, I also had to reset the time and date on the iDrive. Any reason why I had to do this when only a oil change was performed?
Interesting.....an iDrive car should take something like 2.5 hours minimum to update, my non-iDrive could be done in 1.5 hours, so I'm told. My car drives differently after being in the garage for an hour, I wondered whether they changed the throttle adaption but I've just noticed the date format is US, not UK (I'm the in the UK). It had been a UK format date. Could BMW be slipping a small s/w update on the quiet?
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      10-23-2008, 04:50 PM   #2452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabria View Post
So I got my car back on Tuesday with a new HPFP (my 3rd) and v31.1.1 installed. I'm still trying to feel the car out to see what the changes are but here are my first impressions:

Slight reduction of turbo lag, but it's still present - The car seems to take off somewhere between 2000 and 2500 rpm, instead of 2500 to 3000 rpm (but I could be dreaming - I'm going to push it harder in the coming days)
What he says. My car is back with lag as expected.

v31.1 is not a cure. Maybe lag is not as apparent as with v30, but still there. Very prominently so in D mode during city driving - the car downshifts very eagerly to compensate for this. The lower gearing and additional raise of RPM (and thus torque) make the difference between two gears seem very big.

Kinda binary driving, either you have maximum thrust (lower gear + higher torque because of the RPM) or you don't have any at all. Really difficult to modulate.

I am yet undecided what I will do now. Options are:

- Wait for BMW to release their promised field solution in ~8 weeks.
- Buy a very expensive Noelle tune (guaranteed to fix the issue as it's based on an early Progman version). Cost ~4000
- Work together with Regelin here in Germany. He tunes the maps based upon whatever target data status he finds on the car. He says that using an older version was unsafe and prefers to find and fix the problem, although he told me that he does not control the wastegates in his tunes yet. This is not a sure-fire fix but costs only ~1900. I might even talk him into tuning based on an older version he saved from another car.

Dinan is not available here. Procede et. al. lack approval by our authorities as they can be altered any time.
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      10-23-2008, 05:04 PM   #2453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meyergru View Post
What he says. My car is back with lag as expected.

v31.1 is not a cure. Maybe lag is not as apparent as with v30, but still there. Very prominently so in D mode during city driving - the car downshifts very eagerly to compensate for this. The lower gearing and additional raise of RPM (and thus torque) make the difference between two gears seem very big.

Kinda binary driving, either you have maximum thrust (lower gear + higher torque because of the RPM) or you don't have any at all. Really difficult to modulate.

I am yet undecided what I will do now. Options are:

- Wait for BMW to release their promised field solution in ~8 weeks.
- Buy a very expensive Noelle tune (guaranteed to fix the issue as it's based on an early Progman version). Cost ~4000
- Work together with Regelin here in Germany. He tunes the maps based upon whatever target data status he finds on the car. He says that using an older version was unsafe and prefers to find and fix the problem, although he told me that he does not control the wastegates in his tunes yet. This is not a sure-fire fix but costs only ~1900. I might even talk him into tuning based on an older version he saved from another car.

Dinan is not available here. Procede et. al. lack approval by our authorities as they can be altered any time.
If it's really 8 weeks I suppose it's worth waiting, I can't see how it'll be as good as the the original as this needs the wastegates closed. I assume it'll more of a disguise. Will they only update cars with "problems"....if they don't admit the de-tuning/lag we don't get updates?
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      10-23-2008, 06:51 PM   #2454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iScream View Post
I believe I am one of the "original six" and I'll just spill the beans that my car has been confirmed to have developed software AND hardware issues. Even after they updated the software, my wastegates started rattling, so the software alone is not a cure-all for the original problem it was intended to solve. To me, this suggests that software alone may not solve The Lag.

First they replaced the wastegate actuators, but that did not remove all the noises. So, now they are replacing the turbos, under warranty.

On the term of The Lag, I prefer to use the capitalized version, because the tuner nerds will never let us hear the end of it if we just call it "lag." Capitalized, "The Lag" refers to whatever it is that has weakened our cars such that they are not the same as when we originally purchased them. We covered this like 100 pages ago. I drove this thing since 2006, for more than 15k miles before it was detuned. I don't care what you call it, it's not the same car I picked up in Munich. Funny thing about the semantics is, I always called it "throttle response" when dealing with BMWNA, and THEY responded to me by calling it lag. Their word, not mine.

Anyway, back on topic... it seems as though some of the variance we've experienced here could be due to hardware degradation. After BMWNA confirmed that they detuned the car to address problems in the turbos, I asked them what if my turbos were already "damaged" by the old software, and they did not have a response for me. Sure enough, a few days later, I get the confirmation that the turbos are messed up, despite having 29.2.

So, maybe the pre-29.2 actuators became "sticky" or something, thus exacerbating the detuning and exhaust noises for some of us, whereas new '08 owners have not yet put enough wear on their turbos to really notice it, and may never do so due to the new software.

Once I get my car back, I should be able to offer the unique perspective of someone who had pre-29.2 with new turbos, pre-29.2 with worn turbos, post-29.2 with damaged turbos, and post-29.2 with new turbos...
Reading this troubles me as the long term reliability of this car is in question. I was really hoping to keep her for awhile +5 years.
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      10-23-2008, 09:32 PM   #2455
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Quote:
Reading this troubles me as the long term reliability of this car is in question. I was really hoping to keep her for awhile +5 years.
Just think the twin Turbo V8 in the X6. It has the intake manifolds on the outside of each cylinder bank and the exhaust manifolds/turbos in the 'valley'. Talk about experimental!

-B
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      10-23-2008, 11:23 PM   #2456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iScream View Post
So, maybe the pre-29.2 actuators became "sticky" or something, thus exacerbating the detuning and exhaust noises for some of us, whereas new '08 owners have not yet put enough wear on their turbos to really notice it, and may never do so due to the new software.

Once I get my car back, I should be able to offer the unique perspective of someone who had pre-29.2 with new turbos, pre-29.2 with worn turbos, post-29.2 with damaged turbos, and post-29.2 with new turbos...
I think you are on to something with the above part of your post. Let us know how your car feels when you get it back.
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      10-23-2008, 11:37 PM   #2457
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Hey Peeps, been busy getting wheels and trying to have a life(not working). Wow this has been a busy thread since my last visit.

One thing I thought was intereesting was the wording of the bulletin referring to the vacuum hose. Did anyone else notice
"the customer also complains of a slight reduction of power, similar to an increased turbo lag."

I call your attention the the word increased. As in, there was some before and now it is worse. As in we know there is some already but this guy thinks there is more. If they say INCREASED, then that means that there was some already there, no?
Hmmm, lets ponder that for a moment.

As for credentials and who knows what about motors and who has driven what cars, this is not a pissing contest, put it back in your pants and everyone take a deep cvleansing breath. Ok now group hug as we sing Kumbaya(or however it is spelled).
The Lag/hesitation/acceleratus interuptis is real, it may not be a problem in your car, and thats good, but it does not mean it doesnt exist in other cars. Perhaps a factor to consider is if the driver had logged some miles in a pre 29.2 car so that they have a reference point that can be used for comparison. I am not saying that if you dont own a pre 29.2 then you dont know what lag is. I mean that for those that had it pre 29.2 and put some miles on it prior to the upgrade, the difference becomes more dramatric and maybe even more noticeable since it was a daily driver up to the update and the next day it was a different car. There was no length of weeeks or months between the drives. The memory of the pre car was fresh from the day before so it was more obvious and surprising since noone at the time knew it was coming.
Now, before reentering this thread, check all egos at the door.
And remember ......shit, I fogot.
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      10-23-2008, 11:54 PM   #2458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof3ssor View Post
Beautifully said!!! Although you can add several other characteristics that were introduced after the software upgrade but we can leave it at that. to me it's like coming home to this every night



and then you start coming home to this. (My apologies if this is somebody's wife/girlfriend....she is cute...really)


+1
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      10-24-2008, 01:26 AM   #2459
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quisp: notice they say "similar to" in that sib. It's very craftily written so it doesn't mean turbo lag exists on an unaffected vehicle. I initially thought the same thing you did... but they don't actually admit anything there. Bummer.
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      10-24-2008, 02:11 AM   #2460
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Check this out. Someone had a bad paint job and BMW gave them a new 2009 and took his old one. They didnt go through half the shit you guys have. I do not berudge them their success with BMW, but wow that odd that they did it so easily.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...paint+problems
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      10-24-2008, 05:51 AM   #2461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaddai View Post
They sure did make a small turbo effectively spool slowly or delay it's boost application by holding the damn wastegates open!!!

From a layman's perspective, it doesn't matter that it "technically" "might not be" "turbo lag" because that's what it feels like. If I hit you with a stick and you think I hit you with a steel rod, what difference does it make what I hit you with if the effect is the same?
The difference is the legality. There is still no turbo lag on the car. The car does not produce the same tq at the advertised rpm level and that is significant. If you want to move this to a legal level, then you need to be accurate in what is wrong with the car. clivem2 is correct that "Detuned" should be the preferred word used here. I am just mentioning this for you to be taken seriously.

If the wastegates are open on idle, the turbos will still spool but the pressure is vented into the exhaust rather than into the engine. There is still almost no noticeable turbo lag, but the driver will feel a "detuned" car.
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      10-24-2008, 06:55 AM   #2462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
The difference is the legality. There is still no turbo lag on the car. The car does not produce the same tq at the advertised rpm level and that is significant. If you want to move this to a legal level, then you need to be accurate in what is wrong with the car. clivem2 is correct that "Detuned" should be the preferred word used here. I am just mentioning this for you to be taken seriously.

If the wastegates are open on idle, the turbos will still spool but the pressure is vented into the exhaust rather than into the engine. There is still almost no noticeable turbo lag, but the driver will feel a "detuned" car.
Sold.
However, there is one word used for describing all the info you just wrote - Lag.
Also, remember that BMW is monitoring this thread and we need to show them we are unanimous rather then arguing about who knows the best way to describe the problem.
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      10-24-2008, 07:23 AM   #2463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavel View Post
Sold.
However, there is one word used for describing all the info you just wrote - Lag.
Also, remember that BMW is monitoring this thread and we need to show them we are unanimous rather then arguing about who knows the best way to describe the problem.
Pavel, when you drive a VTEC car is there lag since the VTEC comes on at higher rpms? No. You guys simply want the car you paid for. If BMW advertised a 300 tq car at 200 rpm and it doesn't provide then you want what you paid for. They infact "detuned" your car and you want the car you bought back.

Just an FYI guys, a few years ago a car came out called the Mazda RX-8. That car promised "xxx" horsepower yet dyno'd for SUBSTANTIALLY less. Guess what Mazda did? They bought back the cars or offered the owners compensation because the RX-8 did not meet the advertised power levels.
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      10-24-2008, 07:30 AM   #2464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
Pavel, when you drive a VTEC car is there lag since the VTEC comes on at higher rpms? No. You guys simply want the car you paid for. If BMW advertised a 300 tq car at 200 rpm and it doesn't provide then you want what you paid for. They infact "detuned" your car and you want the car you bought back.

Just an FYI guys, a few years ago a car came out called the Mazda RX-8. That car promised "xxx" horsepower yet dyno'd for SUBSTANTIALLY less. Guess what Mazda did? They bought back the cars or offered the owners compensation because the RX-8 did not meet the advertised power levels.
You are taking this completely the wrong way. i totally agree with your explanation, However, Lag is the word used to describe our issue on a day to day basis. It's no science, just a convenient word.

Judging by your comments It looks like like you know what your talking about and I for one respect that. Please respect they way others choose to describe the issue we are currently having with our cars. I lack your technical skills, therefore "Lag" is the most appropriate word for me to use.
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