[satakal]

There's a lot wrong with my paint.

-swirls all over
-chips on the hood need to get touched up
-scratches that aren't deep, but need work fixing
-scratches in the bumper down and into the plastic
-remnants of bird poo that looks like paint discoloration

Basically, I have had super bad luck with the paint on this car from day one. All my experiences with having someone else wash it have been bad. I haven't done much better, but at least I haven't messed anything up worse.

So, here's what I think I remember.

-two guys gonna spend probably a full 8 getting it back to perfect
-I think he said 7 stages (i don't know what defines a stage)
-He said he'd finish with a "PPF sealant"? He said it is that good
-wet sand
-clay bar
-other stuff that I don't remember

I'm comfortable knowing that even IF I overpay this guy, the job will get done right. That will save me from the embarassment of getting screwed twice. (first on the over pay, and second on a poor job).

The idea of the price of skilled labor (2 dudes, 8 hours) doesn't add up to what I think is an acceptable profit margin on this job. I suppose that ulitimately, the price of anything is determined by what someone is willing to pay for it. I don't think I'm comfortable with this price.

Do you guys think a task of this sort could ever be worth $1200? If so, under what circumstances? I'm referring to the guy as "this guy" but he has a super legit business and works events for one of the MAJOR detail product companies. In fact, I met him at the product showcase area at the Long Beach Grand Prix working a booth for said company. What do you think? A fool and his money as soon parted? Or, you get what you pay for?
________
big women Cam

[picus]

This is an interesting topic for me, before I charge what is generally considered "a lot" to detail cars. So let me run through some points before I make any judgements on the topic at hand.

Like any service, detailing quality varies greatly based on the skill of the detailer, and products used. Think of it like masonry or carpentry; it's detailed work (hence the name); a lot of what goes into it is years of experience, knowing what to do in any situation, and achieving the desired results (or better) for the client. I find that many, many, many people think "detailing" is too expensive, because unlike carpentry or masonry, they think they can do it themselves or have a cheaper "detailer" do as good a job. Comparing a wash and wax, or a three step system, or even a random orbital job, to what a real pro can do is literally like comparing IKEA chairs to chairs a carpenter will make for you.

What they are asking is for you to pay $75/hr per person. I don't think this is too much; however I do not think you need 16 hours of labor. A detail like this, on a daily driver, shouldn't take more than 8-10 hours for *one* person. If this was an exotic or classic and it was a concours detail then yes, I can understand 16 hours of labor needing to go into it because the car would need to be absolutely, 100% perfect. But for your purposes a good detailer can achieve 95% of what two will achieve in that time. What I will also say is "perfect" is relative. If you really *DO* want it "perfect" and it is in the condition you describe, then yes, 16 hours is reasonable. But trust me, you don't want it "perfect", you want it 98%. That 2% is huge; it's the difference between wetsanding 50%+ of the car or not. At 98% the car will look as good as most of the cars I detail, or FMINUS details, etc...that means damned good. Perfect is rarely achievable in detailing, and when it is it is expensive. I've done week long details on concours cars and I considered them "perfect", but that is approaching a resto process, not a detail.

As for stages, that's all relative again. A wash can be a stage... When you say wetsand do you mean the whole car or only touched up spots? If only touched up spots that means it's just chip and scratch repair. Clay is normally "a step". A PPF sealant can mean anything. It's my personal opinion that if you're paying more than $400 for a detail, *ANY* sealant you choose should be available, and most waxes. There is no sealant/wax worth paying a detailer extra for if you're paying over $400 to begin with (Sure, a detailer might charge $50 extra for Zymol Vintage on a $100 wash, but not on a $400+ detail).

I really hate to contradict what I am sure are good detailers doing good work, and it's possible in your area that *is* the going rate. Like I said, I do agree $75/hr is reasonable, I just don't think your car needs 16 hours of work.

[achenator]

I dunno. I think a TOP NOTCH detailer would be worth 50-60 an hour and a helper half of that. I can't see where that adds up to $1200.

[ScottyGams]

that's not a detail, that's a repair bill

Too much, i think.

[picus]

Before a lot of people chime in with "wtf that's crazy" let me say again; this is in SoCal, this is skilled work, and it probably *IS* approaching a repair. Paint repair can easily be as tedious and labor intensive (and skill intensive) as a re-spray. Again, I don't think the hourly rate is at all excessive, I just think the hours they quoted are.

Think of it like this. Is $100 an hour labor overpriced for a BMW dealership? Not at all, it's regular... is quoting 3 hours for an oil change over the top? Yes.

Originally Posted by picus

Before a lot of people chime in with "wtf that's crazy" let me say again; this is in SoCal, this is skilled work, and it probably *IS* approaching a repair. Paint repair can easily be as tedious and labor intensive (and skill intensive) as a re-spray. Again, I don't think the hourly rate is at all excessive, I just think the hours they quoted are.

Think of it like this. Is $100 an hour labor overpriced for a BMW dealership? Not at all, it's regular... is quoting 3 hours for an oil change over the top? Yes.

You can get everything resprayed for 300$ depending where.........? Thats how much it would cost for some stuff..... over here in NYC at a good shop.

[picus]

Originally Posted by GAMEOVR

You can get everything resprayed for 300$ depending where.........? Thats how much it would cost for some stuff..... over here in NYC at a good shop.

You can respray a car for $300? Nice, shoot me there number, I have about a million clients for them.

....

Remember, the OP is having his *entire* car worked on, not one panel. The paint is going to look new, but it will be OEM paint. AFAIK to respray an entire BMW at a decent shop around here would be minimum $5k.

[theDude]

Originally Posted by picus

Before a lot of people chime in with "wtf that's crazy" let me say again; this is in SoCal, this is skilled work, and it probably *IS* approaching a repair. Paint repair can easily be as tedious and labor intensive (and skill intensive) as a re-spray. Again, I don't think the hourly rate is at all excessive, I just think the hours they quoted are.

Think of it like this. Is $100 an hour labor overpriced for a BMW dealership? Not at all, it's regular... is quoting 3 hours for an oil change over the top? Yes.

I think you're totally on target.

To anyone who thinks 75/hr is too much, try wetsanding large portions of your car and getting it back to perfect gloss.

Diminishing returns is a motherf#$#r...

I think this quote all depends on the car. Depending on where the damage is worse, you might be better of getting portions re-painted and following up with a lesser detail job for 200 bucks down the road.

[simpleE92]

you pay for what you get remember that.

[picus]

Originally Posted by theDude

I think you're totally on target.

To anyone who thinks 75/hr is too much, try wetsanding large portions of your car and getting it back to perfect gloss.

Diminishing returns is a motherf#$#r...

I think this quote all depends on the car. Depending on where the damage is worse, you might be better of getting portions re-painted and following up with a lesser detail job for 200 bucks down the road.

I have a feeling this car is like a lot that detailers deal with, let me see if I can break it down and the OP can chime in.

It has moderate to severe swirls all over.

It has 5-10 RIDS (as in, really deep scratches, the kind that will never come out entirely, but can be diminished to the point that they are all but impossible to see without a halogen)

It has some scuffs or scratches that are into the primer or metal, and will require the addition of paint, sanding, and buffing to remove. Let's say there are 4 of them varying between 1 to 6 inches.

It has between 10-30 chips up front, again, add paint, sand, remove.

This to me is an "average" poorly maintained car. There is nothing that really says "oh crap", but it will definitely require some effort. For a car like this, I generally quote 8-10 hours of work @ my rate, which is $75/hr (ironically). When I am done the car will be mint; as in, 100% of the swirls will be gone, all RIDS will be removed or diminished such that you will have to search for them with 500W halogens, and all chips/scratches will be gone. I am sure many detailers on this site (like LGR norcal or FMINUS) can say the same.

I'd love to see pictures of this car. I can almost guarantee it isn't nearly as bad as what we're all picturing in our minds.

[nmcampbell]

Originally Posted by picus

You can respray a car for $300? Nice, shoot me there number, I have about a million clients for them.

I want that number too. Even if I have to drive all the way to NY for the work, it would be worth it. I can't imagine that any quality re-spray is only going to cost $300

[Queenskid24]

Originally Posted by picus

This is an interesting topic for me, before I charge what is generally considered "a lot" to detail cars. So let me run through some points before I make any judgements on the topic at hand.

Like any service, detailing quality varies greatly based on the skill of the detailer, and products used. Think of it like masonry or carpentry; it's detailed work (hence the name); a lot of what goes into it is years of experience, knowing what to do in any situation, and achieving the desired results (or better) for the client. I find that many, many, many people think "detailing" is too expensive, because unlike carpentry or masonry, they think they can do it themselves or have a cheaper "detailer" do as good a job. Comparing a wash and wax, or a three step system, or even a random orbital job, to what a real pro can do is literally like comparing IKEA chairs to chairs a carpenter will make for you.

What they are asking is for you to pay $75/hr per person. I don't think this is too much; however I do not think you need 16 hours of labor. A detail like this, on a daily driver, shouldn't take more than 8-10 hours for *one* person. If this was an exotic or classic and it was a concours detail then yes, I can understand 16 hours of labor needing to go into it because the car would need to be absolutely, 100% perfect. But for your purposes a good detailer can achieve 95% of what two will achieve in that time. What I will also say is "perfect" is relative. If you really *DO* want it "perfect" and it is in the condition you describe, then yes, 16 hours is reasonable. But trust me, you don't want it "perfect", you want it 98%. That 2% is huge; it's the difference between wetsanding 50%+ of the car or not. At 98% the car will look as good as most of the cars I detail, or FMINUS details, etc...that means damned good. Perfect is rarely achievable in detailing, and when it is it is expensive. I've done week long details on concours cars and I considered them "perfect", but that is approaching a resto process, not a detail.

As for stages, that's all relative again. A wash can be a stage... When you say wetsand do you mean the whole car or only touched up spots? If only touched up spots that means it's just chip and scratch repair. Clay is normally "a step". A PPF sealant can mean anything. It's my personal opinion that if you're paying more than $400 for a detail, *ANY* sealant you choose should be available, and most waxes. There is no sealant/wax worth paying a detailer extra for if you're paying over $400 to begin with (Sure, a detailer might charge $50 extra for Zymol Vintage on a $100 wash, but not on a $400+ detail).

I really hate to contradict what I am sure are good detailers doing good work, and it's possible in your area that *is* the going rate. Like I said, I do agree $75/hr is reasonable, I just don't think your car needs 16 hours of work.

I agree with just about every point of this. Detailing isnt the same for everyone, and there are MANYYYYY people who can justify spending anywhere NEAR that amount to have their paint in near pristine condition. Detailing takes alot of patience, time, skill, effort....etc as picus stated. I agree that many years of experience is a must or at least having worked on many many cars and have done an excellent job...relatively speaking of course.
all in all. it all depends on what the car at hand needs IMO.

Originally Posted by GAMEOVR

You can get everything resprayed for 300$ depending where.........? Thats how much it would cost for some stuff..... over here in NYC at a good shop.

This must be a cheap shop or a hook up. lol I personally know 3 people off the top of my head who work with the Dlr i work at. 200-400 a panel to respray. for a whole car...id say about 2k maybe 3k???

Originally Posted by picus

You can respray a car for $300? Nice, shoot me there number, I have about a million clients for them.

....

Remember, the OP is having his *entire* car worked on, not one panel. The paint is going to look new, but it will be OEM paint. AFAIK to respray an entire BMW at a decent shop around here would be minimum $5k.

Well thats why god gave you common sense because if you know a panel could be resprayed for 300$ you answered your own questions. No1 would work for 300 for a car, if they would of... it would be outta there mind....... And I doubt he has................ rock chips all over his paint.

In key terms, if you pay for..... 1200$ worth of service you are getting ripped.

Originally Posted by nmcampbell

I want that number too. Even if I have to drive all the way to NY for the work, it would be worth it. I can't imagine that any quality re-spray is only going to cost $300

[picus]

Originally Posted by GAMEOVR

Well thats why god gave you common sense because if you know a panel could be resprayed for 300$ you answered your own questions. No1 would work for 300 for a car, if they would of... it would be outta there mind....... And I doubt he has................ rock chips all over his paint.

In key terms, if you pay for..... 1200$ worth of service you are getting ripped.

We're basically agreeing, so ya. $1200 is too much. I will say again though, your car has 13 panels, and each one will be reconditioned to look almost new when detailed properly, so given $300 a panel to respray (which is low), $1200 almost seems a bargain. It's not, but you get my point I think?

I think what you're saying is respray two panels than have the detailers fix the rest for less money, since it will be less work. This isn't a bad idea at all if the OP has some serious damage from a scrape or keying or whatever. They should be able to deal with the rock chips without a respray though. What can I say, I like keeping the oem paint as long as possible.

[L~R~G nor cal]

Take your car to FMINUS and tell him you want everything perfect and finished with Vintage. See what he quotes you, and then you can see if you are getting ripped or not.

[Sam12345]

I will re-spray anyones car, any color they want. 100$. Itll take about 20 minutes tops. You just have to buy the spray paint for me.

[328i]

I think picus's response is right on the money. And it does seem like 16 hours of labor is fairly excessive for a car like that. I think you should get a quote from Fminus before you go through with these guys, as I'm sure you've seen he puts out top notch work.

On a side note, I also must say that the fact that you're considering this shows that you're one of the few that looks for quality in a detailer, not the best deal. I've been having somewhat of a hard time starting out and gaining consistent business while trying to detail professionally and make a living off of it. Part of the reason I am having difficulty gaining clients because many just look for the cheapest price, and assuming that the guy doing the 150 buff job in 4 hours will do the same kind of work as me. It is because of all the hacks out there that give detailers a bad rep to most people, who see a car shined up in armor all, tire shine and wax and call it detailed. I've even been shortchanging myself by quoting prices that are much lower what I believe I should be charging, just to get my name out there but it's still difficult.

[Excellence]

1200$ for a detail is retarded. Do it yourself! Buy some chemicals, cloths and tools.. Your set to go!
You can google on tutorials or ask e90post members for help.

[SLV335I]

Originally Posted by Excellence

1200$ for a detail is retarded. Do it yourself! Buy some chemicals, cloths and tools.. Your set to go!
You can google on tutorials or ask e90post members for help.

You’re crazy. That's terrible advice. Someone not knowing what they’re doing can make it much worse. If you don't know what you’re doing leave to someone who does. It’s not just a Sunday afternoon washing and waxing your car. He needs professional work.

Originally Posted by picus

We're basically agreeing, so ya. $1200 is too much. I will say again though, your car has 13 panels, and each one will be reconditioned to look almost new when detailed properly, so given $300 a panel to respray (which is low), $1200 almost seems a bargain. It's not, but you get my point I think?

I think what you're saying is respray two panels than have the detailers fix the rest for less money, since it will be less work. This isn't a bad idea at all if the OP has some serious damage from a scrape or keying or whatever. They should be able to deal with the rock chips without a respray though. What can I say, I like keeping the oem paint as long as possible.

I kno I know..... I kid I kid Love the great people on this forum that can actually take a joke!!