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      06-18-2006, 05:53 AM   #1
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Can you wait until 2008 ?

BMW won’t offer cars equipped with diesel engines in the United States until 2008, says U.S. CEO Tom Purves. According to DieselForecast, tough emissions standards in California are largely to blame. “It will be about two years until we offer a car in the U.S.,” he said. “We will not do it until we can offer the car in 50 states. Right now we have to meet emissions, and we are still working on selective catalytic reduction. We’re also waiting to see what the EPA does.” Purves stressed BMW would like to see the cars on sale in the ‘States as soon as possible. “The performance is fantastic,�? he says. Meanwhile, Volvo spokesman Roger Ormisher said his company will have to wait until others, like BMW, pave the way. “We’re too small to go first,�? he said. “You really have to force you way into the marketplace when you’re a one-percent brand. Somebody else needs to go first [with a 50-state car]

BMW's Conquering Diesels

Meantime, BMW's sensational diesel sports cars (including test-drive cars supplied to DEER conference here) are tearing up the European market, as diesels now account for 68% of BMW-Europe sales compared to 35% world-wide, BMW official Fritz Steinparzer showed here.

"Particularly in the U.S. and some parts of Asia, the combination of a car in this [high-performance] segment with a diesel engine was up until now almost unthinkable--I feel sure that many people in the USA are not even aware that BMW produces diesel-powered cars," Steinparzer explained.

Now, thanks to huge strides in engine performance, BMW-Europe buyers actually prefer diesels over petrol engines, but its diesels aren't available in the U.S.

Upgrades in maximum cylinder pressure, common rail pressure, multi-injection (four events), boost pressure, turbine and compressor efficiency, fuel efficiency and ultra-low PM emissions (thanks to a new diesel particulate filter) mean BMW can achieve outstanding performance, low C[O.sub.2], and ultra-low criteria emissions--except for NOx.
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      06-18-2006, 06:47 AM   #2
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Dont know why anyone wants a diesel

They stink
They are more expensive to buy, and have a lower resale value
They rewuire more servicing

They dont rev, so you have to continually change gear
If you are out of the power band they take forever to accelerate
They use more expensive fuel ( some countires its cheaper)

They give off more emissions than new petrol engines
They rattle when cold and sound like a tractor.

The new upcomming Direct injection petrol engines ( DI) and upcomming DI with turbo petrol engines ( not just 335i but a whole range from 4 cylinder to V8 ) will make more power , give off less emissions and use less fuel.


Diesels days are numbered
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      06-18-2006, 07:10 AM   #3
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Hybrid v Petrol v Diesel... As prices increase in the lead-up to Easter, the debate continues on which make the best (dollars and) sense

With petrol prices sailing well past the buck-thirty mark (incidentally, further hikes are tipped between now and the Easter weekend) it’s hardly surprising a new breed -- actually, a couple of breeds -- of motorised fuel miser are infiltrating Australian roads.

What new breeds, you ask? Well, the parsimonious chariots we’re referring to are diesels, hybrids and those propelled by liquefied petroleum gas (aka LPG). The latter has been the fuel of choice of taxis and certain fleets for several years, but it’s now finding favour in the private car market, though still among a relatively small number of buyers. (See LPG Autogas's sponsored site for more information here.)

Diesel has long been regarded as smoky, smelly substance that’s dispensed by greasy bowsers that are routinely manhandled by truckies. But times are a changin’. A new generation of diesel car has emerged in recent times -- one that is smooth, refined and unhampered by the performance penalty that was the bane of its forefathers.

And the sales figures show that buyers are taking to compression-ignition (ie diesel) vehicles in increasing numbers. According to industry statistician VFACTS, YTD March 1578 diesel passenger cars were sold to private buyers compared with 877 for the same period last year. Add in non-private passenger car purchases and the total number is 2388 compared to 1263.

In other words, diesel passenger-car sales have close to doubled in the last 12 months. It’s a telling statistic, but this is just the beginning with a horde of new diesel-powered vehicles -- offered by manufacturers such as Jaguar, Fiat and Mazda -- yet to join the fray.

Hybrids cater to a more rarefied niche, as the sole representatives for now are the Toyota Prius and petrol-electric variant of the Honda Civic. These, too, are bought mainly by fleets.

DOLLARS AND SENSE?
But do hybrids and diesels make sound economic sense, or are they the wheeled equivalent of setting fire to a fistful of hundred-dollar bills?

Industry expert and CEO of SurePlan Australia, Tony Robinson, says it all boils down to how far you plan to drive your vehicle.

“If it’s the traditional three-year/75,000km lease or less then the additional cost in opting for an LPG or diesel option is hard to justify, even at today’s pricing,” he suggests.

Robinson says you have to buy such vehicles for other reasons, unless you’re doing in excess of 30,000km per year and plan to keep the car for an extended period.

So is Mr Robinson right or wrong? Let’s do a hypothetical case study by comparing a Toyota Camry Altise with a Prius. The latter costs about $10,000 more, but both cars offer similar levels of performance and accommodation.

Depending on driving style, you can expect the Prius to use around 4lt/100km less than the Camry. Basing the calculation on fuel costs alone and assuming fuel costs $1.30 a litre, this would mean you’d need to drive over 192,000km to recoup the ten-grand price premium.

So, a hybrid probably isn’t the smartest choice if your typical weekly driving regime consists only of dropping the kids to school, commuting to work and doing the shopping. Sydney taxi company Legion Cabs has recently added a Prius to its fleet, but it stands to benefit by flogging the car for 400,000km before pensioning it off.

What about diesels? Well, here there’s a more compelling argument, but only marginally so. Let’s compare a Volkswagen Golf 2.0 FSI Comfortline with a Golf 2.0 TDI (turbodiesel) Comfortline. Both are similarly equipped, have relatively similar performance, but the latter costs $2500 more, yet is more frugal (to the tune of around 2.5lt/100km).

Do the maths and you’ll work out that due to the extra cost of diesel you need to drive about 80,000km just to recoup the extra initial outlay. So, once again, you need to do the miles to justify choosing the diesel Golf on a fiscal basis.

Robinson says far better savings can be reaped by simply selecting a smaller vehicle than the one you might otherwise be inclined to buy.

RACV chief engineer-vehicles, Michael Case, concurs, saying: “An important message is to consider alternative fuels, but also to keep fuel costs in perspective relative to other purchasing criteria.

“Greater cost savings can be made by considering other factors such as vehicle price and depreciation in the process of model selection,” Case says.

HI-OCTANE HIJINX
And what of the standard versus premium unleaded petrol (PULP) debate? There’s a number of motorists out there who insist that using fuel with a higher RON (Research Octane Number) delivers an adequate gain in performance and economy to justify the extra spend.

NRMA vehicle policy specialist Jack Haley has clear views on the subject.

“Most vehicles sold in Australia are recommended to use 91 RON (standard unleaded) and will not improve their performance if operated on a higher octane fuel,” he says.

“Even where performance is enhanced, a rule of thumb is that each RON number gives a reduction of one per cent in fuel consumption (or a one per cent increase in power output),” says Haley.

“Therefore one would expect a four per cent reduction in fuel consumption in moving from 91 to 95 octane, assuming the engine can take advantage of this.

“If the price difference is more than four per cent it does not make economic sense to do it. Similarly, using 98 RON in a vehicle recommended for 95 could result in a three per cent reduction in fuel consumption and the same qualification on cost difference applies.”

Haley suggests vehicles should be operated on the fuel specified by the vehicle manufacturer in the owner’s handbook.

In the case of most European and some Japanese vehicles, the recommended fuel is 95 RON. Haley says some of these vehicles can be operated on 91 RON ULP without a problem, with a small decrement in performance -- the owner’s manual will note if this is the case.

A small number of vehicles, usually performance cars, are either specified to use 98 RON (ultra PULP) or will adjust their engine parameters to take advantage of the higher octane if operated on it -- again, the owner’s manual should be consulted

The RACV recently commissioned a laboratory study of what fuel consumption benefits may be gained from the use of premium grade fuels. The testing was designed to remove factors such as differences between test vehicles, test drivers or conditions to ensure that one fuel is directly compared to the other.

The results show that while there can be small fuel consumption improvements from using premium grade fuels, the higher cost at the pump means that motorists would pay more in the long run than by using regular unleaded (91 RON).

However, the testing program did not assess the claimed cleaning benefits of the branded 98 octane fuels. By removing deposits over time, the cleaning effects are claimed to improve fuel consumption and emissions.

But with oil over 100 USD it will be very clear.
I dont like it but it is a better deal than petrol which nobody will buy if it spends 15 litres / 100 KM = 4 gallons / 60 MILES as 330i for instance.

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      06-18-2006, 07:53 AM   #4
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yeah, i can wait forever, and ever.
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      06-18-2006, 08:01 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Fleet
...upcomming DI with turbo petrol engines ( not just 335i but a whole range from 4 cylinder to V8 ) will make more power , give off less emissions and use less fuel.
V8 with turbo coming? Woohoo!

I know MINI will have a turbo 4 next year, but didn't hear yet about a full range of DI turbo's.
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      06-18-2006, 08:36 AM   #6
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i cant wait for diesel's
but this is my last BMW
unless i have LOTS $$$$ get an M6 conv.
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      06-18-2006, 11:30 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackMac
I know MINI will have a turbo 4 next year, but didn't hear yet about a full range of DI turbo's.
That engine is a joint venture ( will have to look it up again, but I thik its with Peugot )

They released some pictures of it last year
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      06-18-2006, 03:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Fleet
Dont know why anyone wants a diesel

They stink
They are more expensive to buy, and have a lower resale value
They rewuire more servicing

They dont rev, so you have to continually change gear
If you are out of the power band they take forever to accelerate
They use more expensive fuel ( some countires its cheaper)

They give off more emissions than new petrol engines
They rattle when cold and sound like a tractor.

The new upcomming Direct injection petrol engines ( DI) and upcomming DI with turbo petrol engines ( not just 335i but a whole range from 4 cylinder to V8 ) will make more power , give off less emissions and use less fuel.


Diesels days are numbered
Wow, have you ever even driven a diesel? The new ones from BMW, Mercedes and Audi don't have any noticeable fumes (other than when you fill it) and don't "sound like a tractor" at all. They may cost more initially, but they keep their resale value much, much better than their gas counterparts, at least here in the US (and in Europe too, I believe). Diesels are also known for "rewuiring" MUCH LESS servicing than gasoline engines. The Mercedes ones are known to run up to 400k-500k miles easily with just normal maintenance. Diesel engines are usually "overbuilt" and made to last a very, very long time.

As for the driveability, they do rev less so you have to upshift sooner. But they generally have a long, flat torque curve so you don't need to downshift as often. Not sure where you're getting that they take forever to accelerate. The E320 CDI is faster 0-60 than its gasoline counterpart here in the US.

Where I live, diesel fuel is cheaper than regular unleaded, but in some places it's a little higher. This is usually offset by the ~40% increase in fuel economy.

Also, diesels also put out a lot less CO2 than gasoline burning engines, although their particulate and NOx levels are much higher. You can't really make a blanket statement that they just "give off more emissions." Sure, maybe the old ones do, but you should be comparing a new, not-yet-released gasoline engine to a new diesel engine too. Let's put the new BMW DI engines up against the Mercedes Bluetec in that case.

I think BMW, Mercedes, Audi and VW will disagree with you that diesel's days are numbered.
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      06-18-2006, 04:05 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilkhan4
Wow, have you ever even driven a diesel? The new ones from BMW, Mercedes and Audi don't have any noticeable fumes (other than when you fill it) and don't "sound like a tractor" at all. They may cost more initially, but they keep their resale value much, much better than their gas counterparts, at least here in the US (and in Europe too, I believe). Diesels are also known for "rewuiring" MUCH LESS servicing than gasoline engines. The Mercedes ones are known to run up to 400k-500k miles easily with just normal maintenance. Diesel engines are usually "overbuilt" and made to last a very, very long time.

As for the driveability, they do rev less so you have to upshift sooner. But they generally have a long, flat torque curve so you don't need to downshift as often. Not sure where you're getting that they take forever to accelerate. The E320 CDI is faster 0-60 than its gasoline counterpart here in the US.

Where I live, diesel fuel is cheaper than regular unleaded, but in some places it's a little higher. This is usually offset by the ~40% increase in fuel economy.

Also, diesels also put out a lot less CO2 than gasoline burning engines, although their particulate and NOx levels are much higher. You can't really make a blanket statement that they just "give off more emissions." Sure, maybe the old ones do, but you should be comparing a new, not-yet-released gasoline engine to a new diesel engine too. Let's put the new BMW DI engines up against the Mercedes Bluetec in that case.

I think BMW, Mercedes, Audi and VW will disagree with you that diesel's days are numbered.
Yup, driven a number of them

Friends brand new 530d sounds like tractor on cold startup
Ex Bosses wifes 1 year old 730d sounds like a tractor on cold startup
E90 and E46 320d's I drove sounded like a tractors on cold startup

All have destinctive Diesel sound on hard acceleration, hot or cold.

They all still smoke ( granted we dont get the particulate filters here )

They smoke less on the very hig grade low sulphure diesel, but still smoke.
Your diesel will cost much more when they impliment the lower sulphure diesel.

Most diesels have a shorter maintenance interval, though the very new BMW ones are similar to petrol intervals ( other makes still require a number of extra oil changes for diesels )

All makes here give you a much lower trade in on diesels than petrols. I know a number of dealers that wont touch diesels for tradeins ( talking various makes.
E46 320d has a very bad resale here due to a Large number of Turbo failures. They did partly fix the problem and the failures are now at industry norms, but people still remember the large number of 320d turbo faiures ( it was over 20% of 1st year E46 facelifts here ).

Diesel engine failures are higher than pertrol engine failures- fact, ask any large make dealer that deals with diesels


BMW NA wont currently release diesels because of the emissions fines they would have to pay. They dont pay these on petrol models, so doesnt that mean diesels give off more bad emissions ?

335i compares very nicely to 330d ( both 3.0L engines )

"Diesels days are numbered" comes directly from the mouth of a BMW contact in Germany- you can agree or disagree.


Anyway, everyone can have what they want
But currently and to the forseeable future, no diesels for me please
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      06-18-2006, 04:29 PM   #10
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After DIESEL is HIDROGEN and now is hibrid petrol with hidrogen.
Your perspective is quite true and a good one, the fact is that diesel engines throttle, oil burners, tractors, they dont slow with the engine, they have services by 30.000 km but they need oil, competition level.
Nevertheless family cars in EU are over 60 % because they last longer, if not pushed, they can make 1 million km and the faults were due to the petrol driving way in diesel cars. My 320d M gives a good advance in all, to 320i and i will sell it by a higher value.
In US you will buy DIESEL a lot as in UK.
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      06-18-2006, 04:30 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Fleet
Dont know why anyone wants a diesel

They stink
They are more expensive to buy, and have a lower resale value
They rewuire more servicing

They dont rev, so you have to continually change gear
If you are out of the power band they take forever to accelerate
They use more expensive fuel ( some countires its cheaper)

They give off more emissions than new petrol engines
They rattle when cold and sound like a tractor.

Diesels days are numbered
I do agree. I had a 2000 Jetta TDI, and while I have no regrets at all (that car was great to me), it sounded like a tractor and stunk (not like a truck... but you could still smell the diesel, which took forever to clear out of the garage). I enjoyed the great economy (in NA diesel is cheaper in summer than gas and about the same in winter). My main concern was availability. Having to remember where I could buy diesel and make sure I filled up there before I go too low was a PITA, often requiring a special trip just to fuel up instead of "stopping on the way". This was really a concern when taking the car on a long trip. Not every highway is going to have diesel available when you need it.

All in all, I think it's nice to have choices - and I'll never say never - but I'm really happy with the gas engine in my E90 and have no desire for diesel really.
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      06-18-2006, 06:29 PM   #12
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I loved the 535d... That car made me think twice about diesel cars.. then I testdrove the A6 3.0 TDI and that machine was amazing too...! And BMW:s 2.0d has very good performance for being a 2.0 litre DIESEL... So that "Diesels days are numbered" thats alot of crap...
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      06-18-2006, 06:37 PM   #13
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hahahha.........I thought this was going to be about the E90 M3....


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      06-19-2006, 02:42 AM   #14
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FUEL CONSUMPTION: [M3 Coupe] (Euro average) 23.7mpg

23.7 can be 17. in traffic jam.

To be more precise
Page 4 of 4
Specifications for BMW m3 csl e46 - BMWHeaven Knowledge Base
Type Built Weight Dimensions Performance *(1) Fuel cons *(2) Engine Cylinders Power/Torque
BMW M3 CSL
3 Series (e46)
Body: Coupe 2003 1385kg
H: 1365mm
W: 1780mm
L: 4492mm

topspeed: 155mph
0-100km/h: 4.9s
80-120km/h: 5s

city: 17.8
hway: 8.4
avg: 11.9
code: S54 B32
3246cc
petrol
Cyl: 6
Valv/cyl: 4

AVERAGE 11.9

power: 265kW / 360HP (7900rpm)
torque: 370Nm (4900rpm)
*(1) elasticity 80-120km/h in 4th gear - *(2) Fuel Consumption in liters per 100 kilometer

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      06-19-2006, 04:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Fleet
Dont know why anyone wants a diesel

They stink
They are more expensive to buy, and have a lower resale value
They rewuire more servicing

They dont rev, so you have to continually change gear
If you are out of the power band they take forever to accelerate
They use more expensive fuel ( some countires its cheaper)

They give off more emissions than new petrol engines
They rattle when cold and sound like a tractor.

The new upcomming Direct injection petrol engines ( DI) and upcomming DI with turbo petrol engines ( not just 335i but a whole range from 4 cylinder to V8 ) will make more power , give off less emissions and use less fuel.


Diesels days are numbered



hmmm before buying my diesel car i also have the same issues as yours being a petrol enthusiast for years i also thinks diesels are not a good options but after seeing my freinds and testing it thru dealer and asking on forums mechanics they all agree deisel is much better., i can be sure that after the deisel comes to the us YOU will eat everthing you said about diesels
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      06-19-2006, 05:00 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckystrike
i can be sure that after the deisel comes to the us YOU will eat everthing you said about diesels
Im not from the US, and we have had diesels just as long as you have and I have driven every model BMW diesel available here, some for very long distances.

Maybe when the next generation petrols come out you will eat what you said
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      06-19-2006, 06:12 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Fleet
Dont know why anyone wants a diesel

They stink
They are more expensive to buy, and have a lower resale value
They rewuire more servicing

They dont rev, so you have to continually change gear
If you are out of the power band they take forever to accelerate
They use more expensive fuel ( some countires its cheaper)

They give off more emissions than new petrol engines
They rattle when cold and sound like a tractor.

The new upcomming Direct injection petrol engines ( DI) and upcomming DI with turbo petrol engines ( not just 335i but a whole range from 4 cylinder to V8 ) will make more power , give off less emissions and use less fuel.


Diesels days are numbered
I agree. I don't think most of the American buyers clamoring for a diesel have actually driven one - they're probably just buying into the hype. Diesel is a particularly silly option for the US market - where a gallon of diesel fuel currently costs MORE than a gallon of gasoline - at least in the parts I frequent.

Look at it this way: even in Europe, where diesel tends to be cheaper than gasoline (not taxed as heavily) and fuel is already more than the equivalent of $5 USD/gallon (meaning fuel consumption is that much more important), a very large contingent of consumers still opt for the gasoline powered models. Why is that?
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      06-19-2006, 08:30 AM   #18
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FACTS AT A GLANCE

CAR: BMW 320d saloon range
PRICES: £23,485-£27,275 - on the road
INSURANCE GROUPS: 14
CO2 EMISSIONS: 153g/km
PERFORMANCE: Max Speed 139mph / 0-60mph 8.2s
FUEL CONSUMPTION: (combined) 49.6mpg
STANDARD SAFETY FEATURES: Twin front airbags, twin front side airbags, twin ITS side window airbags / ABS /DSC / runflat tyres
WILL IT FIT IN YOUR GARAGE?: Length/Width/Height 4520/1817/1424mm

FUEL CONSUMPTION COMBINED 49.6 MPG !!!!!!! for 25.000 miles y and 3 ou 4 y.

The new 3 Series range will also feature a two-litre diesel and a two-litre petrol variant at launch. The BMW 320d, currently the UK's most popular 3 Series model, features second-generation common rail diesel technology and a variable vane turbocharger to deliver 163bhp and 340Nm (251lb-ft) of torque. This provides the car with the best of all worlds. Acceleration to 62mph is achieved in 8.3 seconds with a top speed of 140mph. While delivering this level of performance, it also achieves 49.6mpg on the combined cycle and, as an additional benefit to the company car driver, is EU4 compliant.

The engine in the new 320i is based on that of the outgoing 318i, but with enhancements to the induction and exhaust systems. Also benefiting from BMW's VALVETRONIC and Bi-VANOS systems, the new 320i offers 150bhp at 6,200rpm, with a maximum torque of 200Nm (147lb-ft) achieved at 3,600rpm. This enables the car to accelerate to 62mph from standstill in 9.0 seconds, achieve a top speed of 136mph yet still delivering a frugal 38.2mpg.

I dont like it but facts are facts the new diesel generation is better.
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