[toxicnerve]

beemerbird,

Do you happen to work for HMRC?

[acerboo]

Originally Posted by Steve A

Mark my words we will all be sorry if David Cametosoon becomes PM...

you might, we wont! were already sorry with comrade gordon

[dxb335d]

Lets hope the blues get in!

[acerboo]

ive revised labours achievements
1 filthy hospitals where you die of something nasty but which was not the original reason for being there
2 massive taxes on the motorist
3 worse roads we have ever had
4 immigration out of control
5 crime worse we have ever had and out of control now prisons are at bursting point
6 unemployment figures massaged by raising school leaving age and finding spurious schemes to keep people off the dole queue all costing the tax payer
7 paying people to lose weight
8 paying kids to stay at school i can see the sense in this actually, you give them money which they use to buy rubbish food and get fat, then you pay them to lose weight, they then use that money to start smoking and yes the labour governments next crazy scheme pay them to stop smoking at least they wont need a job.
9 massive tax increase on 4x4s yet who were the only people who could get around during the bad weather
10 lunatic ravings about global warming which now car and fuel tax has risen now seems to be forgotten
11 massive airport expansion who needs it
12 a drug culture out of control just watch cops with cameras on tv
13 kids leaving school who cant read or write and in many cases cant even speak properly
14 political correctness gone absolutely bonkers and getting worse by the day
15 an illegal war started by an egotistic maniac that should be brought to trial for war crimes have to say cameron should pledge to get our troops out
16 an economy that in all honesty is bankrupt
17 they have surrendered our sovereignty to the eu and refused to give us any say in the decision instead insulting us by saying we are not quailfied to do so
18 they introduced 24 hour boozing which has led to the binge drinking culture even though they were warned of this, but see how clever they are their answer is to raise tax on booze supposedly to stop the binging which of course it wont
could go on but my fingers are getting tired.

[peterg1965]

Well said Acerboo...

In 13 years they have continued to tax the f**k out of motorists (but not exclusively motorists of course) and guess how many miles of new motorway have been built to accommodate the increased number of people now living on our small island....... less than 25miles worth.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by acerboo

ive revised labours achievements
1 filthy hospitals where you die of something nasty but which was not the original reason for being there
2 massive taxes on the motorist
3 worse roads we have ever had
4 immigration out of control
5 crime worse we have ever had and out of control now prisons are at bursting point
6 unemployment figures massaged by raising school leaving age and finding spurious schemes to keep people off the dole queue all costing the tax payer
7 paying people to lose weight
8 paying kids to stay at school i can see the sense in this actually, you give them money which they use to buy rubbish food and get fat, then you pay them to lose weight, they then use that money to start smoking and yes the labour governments next crazy scheme pay them to stop smoking at least they wont need a job.
9 massive tax increase on 4x4s yet who were the only people who could get around during the bad weather
10 lunatic ravings about global warming which now car and fuel tax has risen now seems to be forgotten
11 massive airport expansion who needs it
12 a drug culture out of control just watch cops with cameras on tv
13 kids leaving school who cant read or write and in many cases cant even speak properly
14 political correctness gone absolutely bonkers and getting worse by the day
15 an illegal war started by an egotistic maniac that should be brought to trial for war crimes have to say cameron should pledge to get our troops out
16 an economy that in all honesty is bankrupt
could go on but my fingers are getting tired.

+F***ing 1

[wbbb]

Some interesting points made but are some of them just hyperbole without any substance? E.g:

1) Cameron supported the Iraq war and has maintained that invasion was the right thing to do.
2) How do you measure that crime is out of control? Labour says that overall crime is down by 1/3 since 1997 - where does it say otherwise?
3) Education standards have improved since 1997 in both English and Science - media stories about kids doing well are not as popular as those about 'yoofs' with ASBO's.
4) Erm, the Tories have not forgotten about global warming - it crops up in loads of their draft manifesto pledges. Neither have the other main political parties if you look at the documentation they are producing. Why do you think the Tories are opposed to a 3rd Heathrow runway?

I agree that the class system does not now fall neatly into the 'working class', 'middle class', 'upper class' categories which once existed but I don't agree that the class system has gone! In fact under Labour (although this gap increased significantly under Thatcher) the gap between the richest and poorest has increased. The richer have got richer, and the poorer are not catching up at all. Think about all the people referred to as 'chavs' - what class do you think they are?!

[acerboo]

Originally Posted by wbbb

Some interesting points made but are some of them just hyperbole without any substance? E.g:

1) Cameron supported the Iraq war and has maintained that invasion was the right thing to do.
2) How do you measure that crime is out of control? Labour says that overall crime is down by 1/3 since 1997 - where does it say otherwise?
3) Education standards have improved since 1997 in both English and Science - media stories about kids doing well are not as popular as those about 'yoofs' with ASBO's.
4) Erm, the Tories have not forgotten about global warming - it crops up in loads of their draft manifesto pledges. Neither have the other main political parties if you look at the documentation they are producing. Why do you think the Tories are opposed to a 3rd Heathrow runway?

I agree that the class system does not now fall neatly into the 'working class', 'middle class', 'upper class' categories which once existed but I don't agree that the class system has gone! In fact under Labour (although this gap increased significantly under Thatcher) the gap between the richest and poorest has increased. The richer have got richer, and the poorer are not catching up at all. Think about all the people referred to as 'chavs' - what class do you think they are?!

crime has only"fallen" if you believe labour but one thing they have proved is that they are strangers to the truth with blair being the biggest liar of them all although brown runs him a close second. in actual terms just watch road wars, cops with cameras etc to see what is going on every day. likewise education we have only labour brainwashing to believe that education is improving but in reality it isnt. i dont say anything about class, im not "upper class" but i believe if you want something go out and work for it dont expact someone else to pay for you, at the same time i don see why anyone should work to keep someone else. one thing is for sure and labour have proved it you need someone who knows waht he is doing to run the country and he doesnt! the country should be run like a business to make its own way, ive had to make massive cutbacks and the business has suffered but still going im not borrowing money and im not spending money i dont have thats the way to survive.

[Teutonicdriver]

Originally Posted by wbbb

Some interesting points made but are some of them just hyperbole without any substance? E.g:

Yes, possibly all of them except the fact that Brown is a wanker.

[Teutonicdriver]

Watching "Cops with cameras" is hardly a scientific method of analysing current crime trends.
I have had TV companies accompany my staff over a period of several weeks and then they go away and edit out all the boring crap ending up with about half an hour of 'exciting' footage.

[wbbb]

@ acerboo - I believe that statistically overall crime committed has fallen by 1/3, but if you can point me in the direction of a credible source showing crime is 'out of control' I'll accept it. (cops with cameras doesn't count!)

This is what Labour says on education:

"At primary school the percentage of pupils achieving level 4 (the expected level) or above in 2009 was in English 80 per cent compared with 63 per cent in 1997 in Maths 79 per cent compared with) and 62 per cent in 1997 and in Science 88 per cent compared with 69 per cent in 1997.
Around 100,000 more children now leave primary school secure in the basics than in 1997.
64.8 per cent of pupils achieved 5 or more grades A*-C at GCSE or equivalent - an increase of 19.7 percentage points since 1997. Over 129,000 more pupils achieved 5 or more A*-C grades at GCSE or equivalent than did so in 1997.
47.6 per cent of pupils achieved 5 or more grades A*-C including English and mathematics at GCSE or equivalent - an increase of 1.3 per cent percentage points from 2006/07. This means just over 78,000 more pupils achieved 5 or more A*-C grades at GCSE including English and maths than in 1997.
In 1997 half of all schools did not achieve 30 per cent of pupils leaving with five A*-Cs at GCSE, including English and maths now it is just 1 in 12"

Again, if you can point me in the direction of something which shows standards have declined since 1997 I'll happily take a look (and 'exams are getting easier' doesn't count lol)

@ Teutonic - lol

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by wbbb

@ acerboo - I believe that statistically overall crime committed has fallen by 1/3, but if you can point me in the direction of a credible source showing crime is 'out of control' I'll accept it. (cops with cameras doesn't count!)

This is what Labour says on education:

"At primary school the percentage of pupils achieving level 4 (the expected level) or above in 2009 was in English 80 per cent compared with 63 per cent in 1997 in Maths 79 per cent compared with) and 62 per cent in 1997 and in Science 88 per cent compared with 69 per cent in 1997.
Around 100,000 more children now leave primary school secure in the basics than in 1997.
64.8 per cent of pupils achieved 5 or more grades A*-C at GCSE or equivalent - an increase of 19.7 percentage points since 1997. Over 129,000 more pupils achieved 5 or more A*-C grades at GCSE or equivalent than did so in 1997.
47.6 per cent of pupils achieved 5 or more grades A*-C including English and mathematics at GCSE or equivalent - an increase of 1.3 per cent percentage points from 2006/07. This means just over 78,000 more pupils achieved 5 or more A*-C grades at GCSE including English and maths than in 1997.
In 1997 half of all schools did not achieve 30 per cent of pupils leaving with five A*-Cs at GCSE, including English and maths now it is just 1 in 12"

Again, if you can point me in the direction of something which shows standards have declined since 1997 I'll happily take a look (and 'exams are getting easier' doesn't count lol)

@ Teutonic - lol

Better check the Tory press! Apparently a 2nd World War bomber also landed on the moon shortly after Freddie Starr Ate My Hamster.

[wbbb]

this is what the Tories say:

"Britain is slipping down the world league tables in Maths and English, and violence in the classroom is a serious problem. Truancy is at record levels, having risen by more than a third despite Labour spending over £1 billion to combat it."

Nothing about number of GCSE's obtained, A-Levels etc falling.

[beemerbird]

Originally Posted by toxicnerve

beemerbird,

Do you happen to work for HMRC?

No. HM Land Registry, hence very difficult to privatise. Privatisation would pose a major, major threat to the current impartiality of how the department operates, and that's just for starters. Property and land are one of the major corner stones of our British way of life and needs to be protected at all costs imo.

Originally Posted by wbbb

I agree that the class system does not now fall neatly into the 'working class', 'middle class', 'upper class' categories which once existed but I don't agree that the class system has gone! In fact under Labour (although this gap increased significantly under Thatcher) the gap between the richest and poorest has increased. The richer have got richer, and the poorer are not catching up at all. Think about all the people referred to as 'chavs' - what class do you think they are?!

I said greatly diminished - not gone. Unfortuantely the rich have not become richer as I know of a few business people who some may class as rich, who have had to lay off staff and or close their business down and blame much of it on this current Governments policies. This does not help the economy. Without the 'haves' you would have more 'have nots'. Even communism had the 'haves'.

As someone who works within the 'system' I can categorically state that figures can be used to appear to be many different things and certainly never tell the whole story.........in fact lets just say they can be selective, especially figures dependant upon public satisfaction based on the performance of a department.

Thankfully Land Registry figures are black and white based on facts and facts alone. Our figures do not affect a childs education or the publics health. The accounts are there for all to see.

[wbbb]

Originally Posted by beemerbird

Unfortuantely the rich have not become richer as I know of a few business people who some may class as rich, who have had to lay off staff and or close their business down and blame much of it on this current Governments policies. This does not help the economy. Without the 'haves' you would have more 'have nots'. Even communism had the 'haves'.

Not true as the rich have become richer - party politics aside, the Institute for Fiscal Studies research proves that this is the case. Overall the richest people (top 10% earners) in the country have become richer and the gap between their incomes and the incomes of, say, the poorest 10% of the population, has increased. That is not to say that rich people are not affected by the recession, of course their businesses will be affected, but equally the employees they are laying off are also affected.

[Teutonicdriver]

The number of GCE passes, A level passes and degrees gained is irrelevent. It is the standard required to gain those passes which has undoubtably fallen. I know its not the done thing to critisise the poor kids who have passed through the system but I can personally say that more than a few graduates I have met have difficulty with common grammer and arithmatic.
Most kids today can tell you anything about the music industry or who won big brother etc but ask them where Djibouti is, or ask them to give you their view on world politics or even general knowlege and many havent a clue.Some of them even consider that a reasonable way to assess crime trends is through watching Police chases on the television!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pjs]

Originally Posted by wbbb

Not true as the rich have become richer - party politics aside, the Institute for Fiscal Studies research proves that this is the case. Overall the richest people (top 10% earners) in the country have become richer and the gap between their incomes and the incomes of, say, the poorest 10% of the population, has increased. That is not to say that rich people are not affected by the recession, of course their businesses will be affected, but equally the employees they are laying off are also affected.

So what. Most of the top 10% will have worked very hard and taken some risks, whislt most of the bottom 10% will have done diddly squat except take the tax from the higher earners and spend it on smoking, booze and shit food for their growing breed of wayward kids, all whilst pretendiong to be looking for work or pretending to be incapcitated

[wbbb]

Originally Posted by Teutonicdriver

The number of GCE passes, A level passes and degrees gained is irrelevent. It is the standard required to gain those passes which has undoubtably fallen. I know its not the done thing to critisise the poor kids who have passed through the system but I can personally say that more than a few graduates I have met have difficulty with common grammer and arithmatic.

But there has to be a yardstick to measure education standards by? What would you suggest? I was responding to a previous poster's claim that kids are leaving school and "in many cases cant even speak right". Whatever your political persuasion, its just not true.

[wbbb]

Originally Posted by pjs

So what. Most of the top 10% will have worked very hard and taken some risks, whislt most of the bottom 10% will have done diddly squat except take the tax from the higher earners and spend it on smoking, booze and shit food for their growing breed of wayward kids, all whilst pretendiong to be looking for work or pretending to be incapcitated

..and its the kids who are born into that poverty who then suffer from lack of opportunity, have crap role models for parents and ultimately end up claiming benefits which the hard working public (thats me, you and others posting here I am guessing) end up paying for. So how is the 'so what' attitude going to help?

[pjs]

Originally Posted by wbbb

..and its the kids who are born into that poverty who then suffer from lack of opportunity, have crap role models for parents and ultimately end up claiming benefits which the hard working public (thats me, you and others posting here I am guessing) end up paying for. So how is the 'so what' attitude going to help?

It was a 'so what' to the gap that exists. There always will be a gap, and even if it gets greater, both extremes could still improve their wealth.

Your point now is spot on, and I believe Labour have been totally ineffective in dealing with the benefit culture that exists. The new 'fit note' (which will take some years to be proven as effective) is something they could have done a decade ago.

The most frustrating thing if often see it the benefit trap, where the fact that if they do work, some are only a tenner a week better off. Are labour likley to sort it, doubt it. Will the tories, I doubt it, but worth a change to see.

[beemerbird]

Originally Posted by wbbb

Not true as the rich have become richer - party politics aside, the Institute for Fiscal Studies research proves that this is the case. Overall the richest people (top 10% earners) in the country have become richer and the gap between their incomes and the incomes of, say, the poorest 10% of the population, has increased. That is not to say that rich people are not affected by the recession, of course their businesses will be affected, but equally the employees they are laying off are also affected.

Without the go getters who provide employment and contribute greatly to the economy in many ways, we're stuffed imo. I for one haven't the 'balls' to take some of the risks these people do and we only ever hear about those who are successful.

Again figures can state many things and too much depends upon 'declared income' at both ends of the scale, creative accountancy is a wonderful concept.

Anyone whose standard of living is below the standard as defined by any Government then the Government of the day is letting these people down. Therefore if some people are currently living below the poverty line why hasn't this Government 'for the people' made damn sure this situation does not occur - surely it's their moral, social and duty of care. Mind you I know a bloke who earns £13k p.a. and receives £1,333 from the Government per month to ensure he can have a reasonable standard of living as there are three children in the household. The eldest, his daughter, he now has custody of and part of that monthly income from the Government is made up of this 'adoption' of his daughter.

I don't begrudge him as I wouldn't want the children to suffer. So there's one person who cannot possibly be part of any fiscal studies in the bottom 10%. We helped him understand what he could apply for as lets just say he wasn't sure due to a lack of education and self-confidence.

[wbbb]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not knocking the rich or entrepreneurs at all, I just think the wealth gap and cycle of deprivation which exists is worrying. What I would say though is that the gap widened at a greater rate in the 80's than in the last 13 yrs....

Right, pub calling lol!