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      06-03-2020, 08:46 PM   #1
eljay
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Question Problems brake bleeding using INPA on xDrive

So, after bleeding my brakes using Motive bleeder, I still have soft pedal, so I found the INPA procedure.
However, it appears that the videos and instructions I found are for non-xdrive cars.
For xDrive, you need to select "Dynamic Stability Control DXC" option under chassis.

The confusing part is that the next screen looks completely different compared to non-xD.
Looks like this:

I still followed the process of RR, RL, FR, FL. However, I only got as far as RR.
The process aborted on me as I didn't continue pressing the pedal because the reservoir got empty, so I stopped. This was after about 70 pedal presses. I'm not kidding.
So, I moved on to RR hoping that RL was just a fluke and it got bled.
Same thing happened there, except I noticed at the very begining where it starts giving instruction that the window said "bleeding wheel FR...". This is despite me selecting F1 - bleed RL.
Are the labels in INPA wrong? Should I follow what it says at the top? "(please start always with F1, then F2, F3, F4)?

I am very confused and wasted soe brake fluid. Now, I only have 1.5L left. Is that enough to go through the process?

Please help!
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      06-03-2020, 11:18 PM   #2
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When I did mine (rwd) it only cycles 10 or so times. And as long as there's no mess ups, 1.5L should be fine, I believe the system is 1L or so with a full reservoir.
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      06-04-2020, 04:51 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan50 View Post
When I did mine (rwd) it only cycles 10 or so times. And as long as there's no mess ups, 1.5L should be fine, I believe the system is 1L or so with a full reservoir.
That is why I'm confused.
The process just kept asking me to actuate and release brake pedal over and over again. When I stopped, I got en error that because I didn't press the pedal, the bleeding process has been cancelled.
That's after I pretty much drained the reservoir. In fact, with the second caliper I did, I think I sucked in some air into the system. Do I need to rebleed using Motive or just re-try INPA?

So, my only guess is that INPA labels are messed up and while I pushed the correct buttons, INPA expected a different caliper to be bled while I kept pumping the pedal according to instructions.
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      06-04-2020, 09:51 AM   #4
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I prefer to do service functions in ISTA, because it's much more user friendly.

you'll find brake bleeding under vehicle management>service functions>traction control IIRC.
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      06-04-2020, 10:16 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljay View Post
...
I still followed the process of RR, RL, FR, FL. [WRONG sequence 'cuz that's NOT the way INPA actuates the valve block. You need to translate the German and follow INPA directions. The INPA "Labels" are NOT messed up -- they're in GERMAN and German Abbreviations. See below] However, I only got as far as RR. [Probably 'cuz the German text says "start with "HL" = "Hinten Links" = Rear Left (Left Rear to us ;-)]
The process aborted on me... Are the labels in INPA wrong? Should I follow what it says at the top? "(please start always with F1, then F2, F3, F4)? [YES, but -- you have to understand which wheel to do 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th as far as opening bleed screws, and understand the commands about opening bleed screw, pumping pedal, etc.]...
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljay View Post
That is why I'm confused.
The process just kept asking me to actuate and release brake pedal over and over again. When I stopped, I got en error that because I didn't press the pedal, the bleeding process has been cancelled. [Please attach a pdf of the screen showing the error message, OR quote the message exactly]...
I have NOT yet used INPA to bleed my 328xi brakes (DXC_90 Module), but I HAVE viewed the F6 Activations (Steuern) Screen: DXC_90 > F6 > F1 Bleeding Routine. My version of INPA is mostly in German, except for the Menus, so I have to translate using Google Translate. It does NOT do a perfect job in translating German Technical terms, but if you take time to select the meaning closest to YOUR technical understanding in English, YOU can probably do at least as good a job as the "Volunteers" who translated some of the later versions with MORE English (sometimes "incorrect" English ;-)

The sequence in which INPA bleeds the brakes is as follows:
< F1 > HL = Hinten Links = Rear Left = Left Rear = LR
< F2 > VL = Vorne Links = Front Left = Left Front = LF
< F3 > VR = Vorne Rechts = Front Right = Right Front = RF
< F4 > HR = Hinten Rechts = Rear Right = Right Rear = RR

THAT is NOT the sequence used with other bleed systems which you were following (based upon distance from the Master Cylinder), but INPA is operating the valve block, and if you are going to use that routine, you have to open the bleed valve related to the wheel INPA is pumping out.

Here are MY translations of German INPA Instructions related to the Brake Bleed Routine. I don't speak German and never had any formal German Language training, so ANYONE who does/ has, please correct or improve:

Always start venting with F1, then F2, F3, F4 = Entlueften immer mit F1 starten, dann F2, F3, F4

Brake Bleed = Bremsen-entlüften

Please Follow Instructions Exactly = bitte Anweisungen genau befolgen

Open the Venting Screws HL = Entluefterschrauben HL oeffnen

Press the Brake Pedal = Bremspedal betaetigen !

Here's a link to the Google Translate site I use:
https://translate.google.com/#view=h...te&sl=de&tl=en

George
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      06-04-2020, 10:48 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsjames View Post
I prefer to do service functions in ISTA, because it's much more user friendly...
Perhaps NOT to those who speak & understand German technical language.

Someday soon I'll install & use ISTA, but my concept of it for now is a "somewhat dumbed-down" version for "Exceptional Americans". It would be interesting to the know just HOW & WHY ISTA was developed, WHO developed it, and if it was Germans (probably), just WHAT they said about the "Anglo Techs" (die englischen Techniker) behind closed doors. My cynical side imagines the use of words such as "Spur von Semmelbröseln" = Trail of Breadcrumbs

Thanks for the ISTA tips,
George
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      06-04-2020, 10:55 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbalthrop View Post
I have NOT yet used INPA to bleed my 328xi brakes (DXC_90 Module), but I HAVE viewed the F6 Activations (Steuern) Screen: DXC_90 > F6 > F1 Bleeding Routine. My version of INPA is mostly in German, except for the Menus, so I have to translate using Google Translate. It does NOT do a perfect job in translating German Technical terms, but if you take time to select the meaning closest to YOUR technical understanding in English, YOU can probably do at least as good a job as the "Volunteers" who translated some of the later versions with MORE English (sometimes "incorrect" English ;-)

The sequence in which INPA bleeds the brakes is as follows:
< F1 > HL = Hinten Links = Rear Left = Left Rear = LR
< F2 > VL = Vorne Links = Front Left = Left Front = LF
< F3 > VR = Vorne Rechts = Front Right = Right Front = RF
< F4 > HR = Hinten Rechts = Rear Right = Right Rear = RR

THAT is NOT the sequence used with other bleed systems which you were following (based upon distance from the Master Cylinder), but INPA is operating the valve block, and if you are going to use that routine, you have to open the bleed valve related to the wheel INPA is pumping out.

Here are MY translations of German INPA Instructions related to the Brake Bleed Routine. I don't speak German and never had any formal German Language training, so ANYONE who does/ has, please correct or improve:

Always start venting with F1, then F2, F3, F4 = Entlueften immer mit F1 starten, dann F2, F3, F4

Brake Bleed = Bremsen-entlüften

Please Follow Instructions Exactly = bitte Anweisungen genau befolgen

Open the Venting Screws HL = Entluefterschrauben HL oeffnen

Press the Brake Pedal = Bremspedal betaetigen !

Here's a link to the Google Translate site I use:
https://translate.google.com/#view=h...te&sl=de&tl=en

George
Thank you.
Yes, I know some German, so it was clear to me that in the above screen that HR Hinten Rechts is right rear.

However, I read bleeding procedure for E91 xDrive in TIS that shows order as RR, RL, FR, FL: https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...lation/GNyEPyU

So, I thought something is wrong in INPA and started with RR.
When I clicked F4 'bleedRR', I got message to "breather bolt RR open". So, I opened RR bleeder screw and clicked OK.
I then got a message that bleeding process will take approximately 80 seconds and I was then prompted to actuate pedal (green screen), then release pedal (blue screen), actuate pedal, release pedal etc. In the first few pumps, the DSC unit activated and I kept following the instructions to press/release pedal and after quite a few pumps (I counted 70+, seriously), I went to take a peek at the reservoir, which was now nearly empty. While doing that check, I got an message with red background, which read something like: Brake pedal not actuated, Bleeding process cancelled.
And I was returned to the above screen.
I close the bleeder. About 600ml came out during this process.

I'll try it again, but this time I'll use my Motive bleeder to pressurize the system and feed it fluid automatically, so I don't have to keep checking/refill reservoir after each caliper or risk running dry again.

Is 1.5L enough for this if it goes well? I want to get TRW brake fluid I'm using, but I'm not sure I'll be able to it today or tomorrow and I need the car this weekend.

I'll see if I can connect ISTA. It gave me trouble before as it couldn't identify vehicle. But I think that was a dummy mistake on my part as I later realized, I had the BimmerGeeks cable switch set to E46 mode. So, I'll try connecting it again.
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      06-04-2020, 11:00 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbalthrop View Post
Perhaps NOT to those who speak & understand German technical language.

Someday soon I'll install & use ISTA, but my concept of it for now is a "somewhat dumbed-down" version for "Exceptional Americans". It would be interesting to the know just HOW & WHY ISTA was developed, WHO developed it, and if it was Germans (probably), just WHAT they said about the "Anglo Techs" (die englischen Techniker) behind closed doors. My cynical side imagines the use of words such as "Spur von Semmelbröseln" = Trail of Breadcrumbs

Thanks for the ISTA tips,
George
I probably has something to do with the fact that Germany is no longer its biggest market and English speaking countries make up at least 25% of all sale.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-of-bmw-group/
Let's just be glad that it's not in Mandarin.... yet.
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      06-04-2020, 11:02 AM   #9
eljay
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At least I found one more person out there with the same issue:
Quote:
Fyi, DSC 60PP is the module that's messed up in INPA. It not only breaks the steering angle if you reset it, it also never stops the bleed procedure. Ran my reservoir dry following the instructions.

I got ISTA+ installed and everything works fine.
Source:
https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sh....php?t=1316633
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      06-04-2020, 06:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbalthrop View Post
Perhaps NOT to those who speak & understand German technical language.

Someday soon I'll install & use ISTA, but my concept of it for now is a "somewhat dumbed-down" version for "Exceptional Americans". It would be interesting to the know just HOW & WHY ISTA was developed, WHO developed it, and if it was Germans (probably), just WHAT they said about the "Anglo Techs" (die englischen Techniker) behind closed doors. My cynical side imagines the use of words such as "Spur von Semmelbröseln" = Trail of Breadcrumbs

Thanks for the ISTA tips,
George
yeah, I have and use INPA for in depth diagnostics.

but if I just want to reset a CBS minder or do some dumb maintenance reset, ISTA is just easier to navigate.
Key things like upgrading a keyfob to comfort access are miles easier.
my german is poor, but I get the gist usually.
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      06-04-2020, 06:53 PM   #11
eljay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsjames View Post
I prefer to do service functions in ISTA, because it's much more user friendly.

you'll find brake bleeding under vehicle management>service functions>traction control IIRC.
Do you recall how much fluid is used during the process?
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      06-04-2020, 09:38 PM   #12
eljay
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OK, so I'm sitting here with Motive pressurized and ready to start the ISTA bleeding process, but I'm a dummy I guess.
I got to this screen in the attachment.
It says that for DSC8, to follow RR, RL, R, FL.
INPA said something different.
So, I went back to INPA and followed the order prescribed.
However, as the post I quoted above, INPA just loops endlessly on actuate/release pedal, so after about 10 pumps, I stopped and moved on to the next caliper in the order. I used up all of my 1.5L of fluid and didn't get to the RR.
I'm out 4L of fluid and I'm fed up. And the pedal is soft. At least, it was when I started the car after not getting to the RR above.

Do I follow the ISTA process and order? Do I have DSC8? ISTA says, I have DSC8 Plus on xDrive E91.

Very frustrating. I don't have any fluid left and I need the car this weekend.
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      06-05-2020, 11:32 AM   #13
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can't say.

When i did it I used about 3L of fluid for flush and bleed.

I followed the instructions and it worked.

I'm not sure if there's a postition sensor on the brake pedal. but perhaps the car is not registering your pedal presses properly?
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      06-05-2020, 11:45 AM   #14
nsjames
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also, since you've already flushed the system, there's no reason you shouldn't be capturing the fluid coming out in a clean container and putting it back into the pressure bleeder.

if it looks clean, don't toss it.
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      06-05-2020, 12:44 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsjames View Post
can't say.

When i did it I used about 3L of fluid for flush and bleed.

I followed the instructions and it worked.

I'm not sure if there's a postition sensor on the brake pedal. but perhaps the car is not registering your pedal presses properly?
No, I think the pedal is fine as I get actuate/release messages and responses when I do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nsjames View Post
also, since you've already flushed the system, there's no reason you shouldn't be capturing the fluid coming out in a clean container and putting it back into the pressure bleeder.

if it looks clean, don't toss it.
Yes, I've thought of that after I used an old jar and a plastic Perrier bottle, so I cannot guarantee that it didn't have a couple of drops of water in it.
I poured it back into the original brake fluid container.
The fluid is very clean and actually even the original one came out quite good looking unlike many DIY videos I see. Perhaps I could put it back in and go with it for a couple of years of city driving even if it has a couple of drops of moisture. Hmm...
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      06-06-2020, 08:26 AM   #16
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On the RWD models, the INPA bleed happens really quick. Almost too quick to be a one person job. I've never done an AWD model with INPA. It does seem to expect you to press the pedal too frequently.

It looks like you have access to ISTA so why don't you use that? That's what the dealers use so if that doesn't resolve your soft pedal issue then it is either a bypassing master or user error. I only use INPA when I have to for the DSC bleed but I have always had success using both programs. Replaced masters, DSC modules. I don't even think my pressure bleeder at home can go up to 30psi like the electric machines we have in the shop.

What led you to the soft pedal initially?
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      06-06-2020, 12:03 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juld0zer View Post
On the RWD models, the INPA bleed happens really quick. Almost too quick to be a one person job. I've never done an AWD model with INPA. It does seem to expect you to press the pedal too frequently.

It looks like you have access to ISTA so why don't you use that? That's what the dealers use so if that doesn't resolve your soft pedal issue then it is either a bypassing master or user error. I only use INPA when I have to for the DSC bleed but I have always had success using both programs. Replaced masters, DSC modules. I don't even think my pressure bleeder at home can go up to 30psi like the electric machines we have in the shop.

What led you to the soft pedal initially?
What threw me of about ISTA is that the bleeding order is different than INPA and INPA was pretty clear about connecting to DXC instead of DSC option. So, I thought it strange and I wasn't sure whether I have DSC8 or MK60 module. As you can see, the MK60 says that the instructions will start in test module. So, thinking that DSC8 has a different order than INPA and MK60 being unclear what will happen next and which caliper to get ready, I went back to INPA. My conclusion now is the same as the person I quoted from the other forum that INPA control of the module is messed up and it just loops on actuate/release brake.

My next step was to go back to ISTA and follow steps 3-7 as in the instructions, but I ran out of brake fluid. Since I wasn't catching it in clean container, I'll wait for new bottles on Monday and try again.
By the time I figure this out, I'll be out $100 on fluid alone and three nights of frustration. BMW University is not cheap.

And what led me to soft pedal was an upgrade to 335i brakes all around. The braking power is there and the car stop very well. Much better than on old brakes. But the initial pedal travel is very soft. I'm pretty sure I bled the system well, but since I didn't bleed DSC I wanted to address that as I've read that this makes the difference.
Some others have reported that coding brakes for Performance brakes firms up the pedal even more. Strange as the hardware components between 328i and 335i brakes are identical.

Once I'm done, I'll write up a new clean post with the detailed steps and my lessons learned as it seems that no one experience the xdrive differences and all the videos with INPA are for RWD, which has a different process.

For now folks, don't use INPA on xdrive for DSC bleeding.
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      06-06-2020, 12:23 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljay View Post
So, after bleeding my brakes using Motive bleeder, I still have soft pedal, so I found the INPA procedure.
However, it appears that the videos and instructions I found are for non-xdrive cars.
For xDrive, you need to select "Dynamic Stability Control DXC" option under chassis.

The confusing part is that the next screen looks completely different compared to non-xD.
Looks like this:

I still followed the process of RR, RL, FR, FL. However, I only got as far as RR.
The process aborted on me as I didn't continue pressing the pedal because the reservoir got empty, so I stopped. This was after about 70 pedal presses. I'm not kidding.
So, I moved on to RR hoping that RL was just a fluke and it got bled.
Same thing happened there, except I noticed at the very begining where it starts giving instruction that the window said "bleeding wheel FR...". This is despite me selecting F1 - bleed RL.
Are the labels in INPA wrong? Should I follow what it says at the top? "(please start always with F1, then F2, F3, F4)?

I am very confused and wasted soe brake fluid. Now, I only have 1.5L left. Is that enough to go through the process?

Please help!
The only thing I would use ISTA for would be to bleed the ABS system.

Other than that, I follow the Bentley Repair Guide to do doing an old fashioned 2 person bleed. It's never failed me in 12 years of ownership.

* you will need 3-4, twelve oz. bottles of Dot 4 brake fluid.

To do this you :

1) one person in the cabin
2) one person on the caliber

Order PR, DR, PF, DF

Person on the caliper says "open" simultaneously opening the bleed screw 1/4 to 1/2 turn.

Upon hearing the word "open", the person in the cabin pumps the brakes all the way down to the floor 10x. On the 10th time, he/she holds the brake pedal down to the floor and says "holding"

Person on the caliper upon hearing the word "holding" closes the bleed screw & says "closed"

The person in the cabin releases the brake pedal, upon hearing the word "closed"

You do this 2-3x per caliper.

** The person on the caliper refills the Master Cylinder each time and then moves to the next Caliper after 2-3x (you should not see any air bubbles come out of the bleed screw and you should see fresh fluid).

Do this for every caliper.

Once you get to the front, the brake pedal should start to feel firmer. Your legs will get a small workout when doing the front calipers.
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      06-06-2020, 12:40 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mweisdorfer View Post
The only thing I would use ISTA for would be to bleed the ABS system.

Other than that, I follow the Bentley Repair Guide to do doing an old fashioned 2 person bleed. It's never failed me in 12 years of ownership.

* you will need 3-4, twelve oz. bottles of Dot 4 brake fluid.

To do this you :

1) one person in the cabin
2) one person on the caliber

Order PR, DR, PF, DF

Person on the caliper says "open" simultaneously opening the bleed screw 1/4 to 1/2 turn.

Upon hearing the word "open", the person in the cabin pumps the brakes all the way down to the floor 10x. On the 10th time, he/she holds the brake pedal down to the floor and says "holding"

Person on the caliper upon hearing the word "holding" closes the bleed screw & says "closed"

The person in the cabin releases the brake pedal, upon hearing the word "closed"

You do this 2-3x per caliper.

** The person on the caliper refills the Master Cylinder each time and then moves to the next Caliper after 2-3x (you should not see any air bubbles come out of the bleed screw and you should see fresh fluid).

Do this for every caliper.

Once you get to the front, the brake pedal should start to feel firmer. Your legs will get a small workout when doing the front calipers.
Thank you.
Yes, that is the typical bleeding process and I've used that before I got my Motive bleeder. With the Motive bleeder I don't need to bug my wife (100 bonus points around here! haha).
The bleeder always worked well for me. I have done a complete caliper rebuild and upgrade on our (now gone) 2005 Audi A4. Worked beautifully. Firm pedal, no issues after single bleed. I've bled clutches etc.
After this upgrade, the top of the pedal feels soft and I've read everywhere that DSC bleed is needed, so here I am.
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      06-06-2020, 12:54 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljay View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mweisdorfer View Post
The only thing I would use ISTA for would be to bleed the ABS system.

Other than that, I follow the Bentley Repair Guide to do doing an old fashioned 2 person bleed. It's never failed me in 12 years of ownership.

* you will need 3-4, twelve oz. bottles of Dot 4 brake fluid.

To do this you :

1) one person in the cabin
2) one person on the caliber

Order PR, DR, PF, DF

Person on the caliper says "open" simultaneously opening the bleed screw 1/4 to 1/2 turn.

Upon hearing the word "open", the person in the cabin pumps the brakes all the way down to the floor 10x. On the 10th time, he/she holds the brake pedal down to the floor and says "holding"

Person on the caliper upon hearing the word "holding" closes the bleed screw & says "closed"

The person in the cabin releases the brake pedal, upon hearing the word "closed"

You do this 2-3x per caliper.

** The person on the caliper refills the Master Cylinder each time and then moves to the next Caliper after 2-3x (you should not see any air bubbles come out of the bleed screw and you should see fresh fluid).

Do this for every caliper.

Once you get to the front, the brake pedal should start to feel firmer. Your legs will get a small workout when doing the front calipers.
Thank you.
Yes, that is the typical bleeding process and I've used that before I got my Motive bleeder. With the Motive bleeder I don't need to bug my wife (100 bonus points around here! haha).
The bleeder always worked well for me. I have done a complete caliper rebuild and upgrade on our (now gone) 2005 Audi A4. Worked beautifully. Firm pedal, no issues after single bleed. I've bled clutches etc.
After this upgrade, the top of the pedal feels soft and I've read everywhere that DSC bleed is needed, so here I am.
Yep, use ISTA D to bleed the ABS. I've done it, and it works very well.
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      06-07-2020, 05:37 AM   #21
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Use a charger while doing the DSC bleed as it takes a while (20-30 mins depending on your pace and how you have your car set up. For max speed have the wheels off and car on stands). When you connect to ISTA, always select identification WITHOUT test/scan to minimise the FRM risk.

Did you use something to hold the brake pedal down during the caliper swap so that no fluid drips out?
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      06-07-2020, 05:51 AM   #22
eljay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juld0zer View Post
Use a charger while doing the DSC bleed as it takes a while (20-30 mins depending on your pace and how you have your car set up. For max speed have the wheels off and car on stands). When you connect to ISTA, always select identification WITHOUT test/scan to minimise the FRM risk.

Did you use something to hold the brake pedal down during the caliper swap so that no fluid drips out?
Thank you for the tips.
Yes, I had a charger connected as it does take a while running around the car. It's only a 4amp trickle charger, but seems to have kept the battery topped up over 12.3-12.5V. I then left it overnight for a full recharge.
And I'm doing it with wheels off and on a QuickJack lift.

I've read about FRM afterwards. I hope I didn't mess anything up as I did run the identificationwith test twice so far.
FRM did show yellow in the control tree, but I did not access it.

And yes, during the calioer swap, I held the pedal down with a stick and really had no fluid loss at all.
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