[bma]

Anybody able to heel-toe downshift effectivelly in an e9x? I was a pro in my last car, but since the gas pedal is hinged on the bottom of this car I find it near impossible!

[blaze739]

i never heel-toe shift anyway but i noticed that switching the stock pedals to ACS pedals made it MUCH easier. it's probably because i mounted the brake and gas slightly off center to make them closer together. its less of a stretch now

[200Duece]

I have no problem

[The HACK]

Post originally made on ZPost.

Here's a couple of diagrams I made, originally intended for class-room sessions at some of the schools we teach...

This is the "traditional" definition of a heel-toe. Heel of the foot on the gas, toe of the foot on the brake. The position of the car in diagram indicate how quickly and how short of a distance you typically have to get this accomplished.



This is the alternative way I was taught, it's especially effective on cars where the pedals are close, or for guys with repeated ankle sprains/injuries where rotating the foot in via a traditional sense of heel-toe becomes increasingly difficult with age. Keep left side of the ball of your foot on the brake, rotate your whole foot to the right to catch the gas pedal with the right side of your foot. Takes some practice, but it comes easier for me on a BMW.



On cars like a Nissan 350Z, where the gas and brake pedals are far apart and meant for a traditional heel-toe, since I don't have a lot of flexibility in my ankle anymore, I rotate my foot the OTHER WAY and catch the brake pedal with the ball of my foot on the right, and rotate my foot forward and catch the gas pedal with the tip of my toe. Works just as well.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

My heel-toe is really left side of my foot and right side of my foot.

Gets the job done though

Ive been doing it in this car since day 1 no problems. Probably cause my technique works on any car.

[Synergy 69]

What's the best way to practice this and at what speeds?

[J Tyler]

Originally Posted by Synergy 69

What's the best way to practice this and at what speeds?

In somebody else's car at 4th-3rd gear speed

[htoudiee]

+1... and doing that I have no problem.

Originally Posted by The HACK

Post originally made on ZPost.

Here's a couple of diagrams I made, originally intended for class-room sessions at some of the schools we teach...

This is the "traditional" definition of a heel-toe. Heel of the foot on the gas, toe of the foot on the brake. The position of the car in diagram indicate how quickly and how short of a distance you typically have to get this accomplished.



This is the alternative way I was taught, it's especially effective on cars where the pedals are close, or for guys with repeated ankle sprains/injuries where rotating the foot in via a traditional sense of heel-toe becomes increasingly difficult with age. Keep left side of the ball of your foot on the brake, rotate your whole foot to the right to catch the gas pedal with the right side of your foot. Takes some practice, but it comes easier for me on a BMW.



On cars like a Nissan 350Z, where the gas and brake pedals are far apart and meant for a traditional heel-toe, since I don't have a lot of flexibility in my ankle anymore, I rotate my foot the OTHER WAY and catch the brake pedal with the ball of my foot on the right, and rotate my foot forward and catch the gas pedal with the tip of my toe. Works just as well.

[bma]

I'll have to give that alternative method a try. Sucks cause it took me so long to master the traditional heel-toe method, but like I said, my heel just ends up hitting the hinge of the gas pedal.

[I335]

Works fine for me, especially since the GIAC tune and my clutch stop...

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Synergy 69

What's the best way to practice this and at what speeds?

If you have highways, with Red lights. Try rev -matching ONLY when coming to red light. In essence, Brake, Rev Match, Brake again Rev match until you get comfortable finding how much gas is needed to rev match. Once you master that.... then you need to master heel-toe.

When you can master it at those (5th to 4th, 4th to 3rd, 3rd to 2nd), then try it into a turn.

Come into a turn at 50, rev match for 2nd gear, accelerate out of the turn and see the beauty of rev matching/ heel-toe driving.

Becareful not to "shift-lock" (which is basically not matching, having the rear tires lock up, and having the car spin out LOL).

This whole practice/process will take a few weeks before you can do it naturally. Maybe longer for some, the idea is to continue to use it even in daily driving. I know I do it involuntarily at this point from doing it for so many years. Also cuts down on brake dust

After you master it, you will be able to hop in anyones standard transmission car, rev match and heel toe on the first try and have them go

Best feeling ever.

Originally Posted by I335

Works fine for me, especially since the GIAC tune and my clutch stop...

How do you like the clutch stop, I have one, just didnt install it? Obviously you like it, just tell me a little more so you can convince me to do it lol.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Synergy 69

What's the best way to practice this and at what speeds?

This is how I learned it.

First, sit in the back seat and watch someone who's really good at it do it for about half a dozen times. Pay attention to the right foot and left foot on the pedal.

Then, while the car's stopped an in neutral, put foot on brake and BLIP the throttle using either of the heel-toe methods. Do this REPEATEDLY until you can move the needle approximately 500 RPM at a time. Then do this repeatedly until you can move the needle 1,000 RPM at a time. Finally, as the RPM is falling, do this repeatedly until you can approximately DOUBLE the RPM repeatedly.

Once you have the above mastered, practice, while sitting stopped and LEFT FOOT CLUTCHED IN, move the gear selector down one gear while you blip to double the RPM. So, foot clutched in, gear selector in 4th gear, hold RPM at 2,000 RPM, right foot on brake, blip to 4,000 rpm, move gear selector to 3rd. This whole time, do NOT release the clutch. Repeat from 3rd to 2nd and back and forth.

Then eventually you'll want to try this out in a parking lot while moving between 3rd and 2nd.

Really the only place where you can practice and practice it right is at the track...But you can do it right on the street too, ultimately though, doing it on the track is a little different from doing it on the street.

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Post originally made on ZPost.

Here's a couple of diagrams I made, originally intended for class-room sessions at some of the schools we teach...

This is the "traditional" definition of a heel-toe. Heel of the foot on the gas, toe of the foot on the brake. The position of the car in diagram indicate how quickly and how short of a distance you typically have to get this accomplished.



This is the alternative way I was taught, it's especially effective on cars where the pedals are close, or for guys with repeated ankle sprains/injuries where rotating the foot in via a traditional sense of heel-toe becomes increasingly difficult with age. Keep left side of the ball of your foot on the brake, rotate your whole foot to the right to catch the gas pedal with the right side of your foot. Takes some practice, but it comes easier for me on a BMW.



On cars like a Nissan 350Z, where the gas and brake pedals are far apart and meant for a traditional heel-toe, since I don't have a lot of flexibility in my ankle anymore, I rotate my foot the OTHER WAY and catch the brake pedal with the ball of my foot on the right, and rotate my foot forward and catch the gas pedal with the tip of my toe. Works just as well.

Great tip, the tradional method does not work well in this car, your alternative method is what I use with great ease and success..

Only thing I would add is maybe a bit of a compromise where you blip the gas pedal with the side of your foot like your second diagram, but you still rotate your foot a liitle bit so that it is straight not pointed towards the brake or the throtlle, but rather straight forward, that makes the heel and toe with the side of the foot work even better

[aisthetes]

I'm using the "traditional" method without issue. I prefer this method versus the "alternative" because the entire top portion of your foot remains firmly on the brake pedal during the entire maneuver, giving better leverage in hard braking and an extra margin of safety.

Using the "alternative" method, you're sharing this leverage point with the gas pedal by having your foot on the edge of the brake pedal and gas pedal, which could lead to a situation where you either don't have enough leverage to brake hard enough or your foot could slip off the brake pedal altogether.

Either way, it comes down to practice and getting the timing of the movements and rhythm down. Once mastered, your lap times will drop noticeably.

[I335]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

How do you like the clutch stop, I have one, just didnt install it? Obviously you like it, just tell me a little more so you can convince me to do it lol.

The clutch stop is excellent, but it did take me a couple of days to get used to it and at first I wasn't even sure if I liked it. I've had it installed for a month or so now and don't even notice it anymore unless I'm thinking about it but when I do think about it, it is clearly an improvement. It makes a substantial change in clutch feel/engagement - especially for such a simple little thing and it really helps with heal/toe shifting because after you blip the throttle there's now less time for the revs to fall back down between gears. The tune helps with heal/toe because it's much easier to blip the throttle with a smaller tap now so it's a great combination. I'm amazed at the difference that inch makes as it eliminates a lot of the unnecessary clutch pedal travel which is just wasteful. I didn't get it with racing in mind at all - just to eliminate the wasted travel and that it did. It's much better now and I highly recommend it. That said, it now makes me want a short shifter to go along with it - I think that would be a great combination. I have my eyes on the UUC model and I just might spring for it in the spring.

[swartzentruber]

Originally Posted by I335

The clutch stop is excellent, but it did take me a couple of days to get used to it and at first I wasn't even sure if I liked it.

Do you have a link or any more info about the clutch stop you installed? I had one on a past car (a 330ci), and think the 335 could benefit from one.

[94JZA80]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Here's a couple of diagrams I made, originally intended for class-room sessions at some of the schools we teach...

excellent diagrams! amazingly simple yet effective. and i use both methods myself, depending on the pedal setup of the car i'm driving. for instance, the gas pedal in my brother's Z3 M Coupe is hinged at the floor just like the 335i gas pedal. i can't recall what the OE pedal spacing was like, but he's got AC Schnitzer pedals now, and i use the blade of my left foot to blip the throttle while leaving the ball of my foot on the brake. alternatively, my Supra's gas pedal is hinged at the top, and so i move my heel over to blip the throttle while keeping the ball of my foot on the brake.

Originally Posted by J Tyler

In somebody else's car at 4th-3rd gear speed

[3duwardo!]

the Mini cooper S I test driven and I can heel toe like there's no tmo on it, has the same floor hinged design as the e9x. But I can't vouch pedal positions cause I drive the garbage auto e90 335i (lame). BMW owns mini so I assume it will be similar at least.

I learned heel toe by playing GTR 2 on the pc wit the logitech G25 racing wheel, nothing to break and pay for! LAWL

[3duwardo!]

btw there is something called double clutch heel toe also, ur syncro's will love you if you learn it. Not that it matters as much now a days but my $0.02.

[94JZA80]

Originally Posted by 3duwardo!

btw there is something called double clutch heel toe also, ur syncro's will love you if you learn it. Not that it matters as much now a days but my $0.02.

i'm not sure i understand what you're trying to say...perhaps i'm confused, but hear me out.

...if you're heel-toeing (and thus rev-matching) on downshifts in the first place, then the clutch and the flywheel are engaging at identical (or near identical) rpms. if the clutch and the flywheel are engaging at essentially the same rpm, then you're already putting minimal stress/wear on your synchro b/c it isn't having to "sync" anything - you already accomplished that with rev-matching.

alternatively, if you downshift and forget to rev-match before engaging the next gear, the clutch and the flywheel will clearly engage at two different rpms. on a modern transmission with gear synchros though, it is possible to downshift without rev-matching and still engage the next gear without grinding it, thanks to the synchro. this of course will put stress/wear on the synchro, as it is having to "synchronize" to make up for the difference in clutch and flywheel rpms when you engage them.

so as long as you're rev-matching while downshifting, you're already minimizing the stress/wear on your synchros. i'm not sure i understand how double clutching is going to further reduce synchro wear?

[3duwardo!]

it applies more to older cars, cuz the syncro's were not as good as they are now. It's still good for the car to double clutch-heeltoe, plus it reduces clutch wear.