[cb1111]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

The fact is that you don't know if the boutique oils or any other oils are appropriate for use in a BMW engine without proper LL-01 oil sequence testing. You can convince yourself of anything if you lie to yourself enough. Believing does not make it true.

I personally do not care what oil people use but I do find it unusual that people will do all they can to buy into the ad hype. If ad hype were all true companies like STP and many others would not have been fined millions of dollars for making unsubstantiated claims. It's been reported that Amsoil has also been sanctioned by the API for unscrupulous Biz practices so I'd take all the ad hype with a large grain of salt.

If these boutique oil purveyors ever have their oils properly tested and certified - which is highly unlikely, then and only then will we know if they are safe and appropriate for use in BMW or other Euro engines. Until then it's just baseless hype.

BTW, the flat earth society is of the same nature as the religion of oil faction... They don't want to have their beliefs refuted by facts or reality.

Amsoil is clearly operated by a bunch of enthusiasts so let's all run out and buy their oil - wait, let's buy their nutritional supplement - wait, let's buy their liquid fertilizer.

It's probably all the same stuff anyway.

Any company that refuses to have their products tested and says "trust me" has as much credibility as I do when I tout my maple syrup, cottage cheese, olive oil and sake Euro/Italian and Asian blend.

From Wiki

"Amsoil markets their products through a Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) network of dealers who sell to defined customer types known as wholesale customers, retail accounts and commercial accounts.

Amsoil also wholly owns and manages an MLM subsidiary called Altrum, which markets nutritional supplements. AMSOIL also owns a natural liquid organic fertilizer division called AGGrand, used in home, gardens, greenhouses, golf courses, lawncare, crop farms, ranches, and commercial farming."

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

That's precisely why Amsoil, Redline, Royal Purple etc. should all have their oils tested and certified by Euro car makers IF their oils will actually pass the oil test sequence. Their oils could be good for some engines and not others. No one has any means to know without independent oil sequence testing. As a result the boutique oil purveyors use hype to sway the technically challenged.

Why should they? They don't need to.

Besides the OEM test sequences don't mean all that much other than giving the customer an easy way to choose the correct oil other than having to interpert ACEA ratings (of which many of the OEM's are members).

Case in point are:

M1 ESP 5w-30.

It's meets BMW Longlife 04
Mercedes-Benz MB-Approval 229.31 and 229.51
Volkswagen (Gasoline/Diesel) 504 00 / 507 00
Porsche C30
PSA B712290
PSA D - Level 3
PSA E - Level 3
AvtoVAZ Group “Luxe”
Chrysler MS-11106
AAE Standard STO-003-05, Group B6

Castrol 0w-30:

VW 502 00, 505 00;
MB 229.1, 229.3, 229.5;
BMW LL-01;
GM-LLA-025, GM-LL-B-025.

Those are some special lubricants they have there since it can pass the super secret OEM test sequence for all these different manufacturers. Afterall engine design and materials are so different from manufacturer to manufacturer not to mention year to year.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Socom-

They don't need to test their oils as long as gullible, technically challenged consumers buy their products... and that is precisely what they count on.

.

Or conversely other than emissions friendly additive packs, maybe all these oil really aren't that much different when it comes to day-to-day driving?


Boutiques included.

[742]

Originally Posted by Socom

Why should they? They don't need to.

Besides the OEM test sequences don't mean all that much other than giving the customer an easy way to choose the correct oil other than having to interpert ACEA ratings (of which many of the OEM's are members).

Except that the failure of LL04 oils in the North American market came as a surprise to BMW.

Sort of like the Boeing spokeswoman who said, before the first flight, that the 787 program was as good as done since testing was just a formality. Fail.

Testing matters. In fact it would be a safe bet that some engineer somewhere is getting an unexpected, and nasty, testing result as I type this message.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

We'll never know until they test their oils, will we? Oh wait, we KNOW PAO oils are better because they cost $10/qt. and Turkey says that's how you determine quality.

NOW you know why I have asked the boutique dudes to submit their oils for testing or stop misleading consumers with unsubstantiated claims of suitability. If they don't have independent oil sequence test data for the oil specs they "recommend" their products for then they are just blowing smoke up the arse of naive consumers, IMO.

It's quite likely that if the boutique oils were submitted and passed the various Euro car maker oil specs then their sales would significantly increase because enthusiasts who desire a "potentially" superior oil would be inclined to purchase these oils but may not do so NOW when these oils will void their new engine warranty, without the correct car maker oil spec approval. So from a Biz standpoint you'd think these companies would be anxious to prove how superior their product is, but to date none of them have done so. I'd like to know for informational purposes if their products can meet the LL-01 and other oil specs or not. Maybe they don't want us to know?

I know the boutique oils will not pass ACEA or the new API standards because they use more Zinc and Phosphorus(sp?) than what's allowed. It's an emissions/environmental issue not a lubrication issue. If you look at all the virgin OA's you'll see the additive packages for the boutiques is off the charts when compared to the others. You can ask any of them (Amsoil and RL) specifically.

[cb1111]

Originally Posted by Socom

I know the boutique oils will not pass ACEA or the new API standards because they use more Zinc and Phosphorus(sp?) than what's allowed. It's an emissions/environmental issue not a lubrication issue. If you look at all the virgin OA's you'll see the additive packages for the boutiques is off the charts when compared to the others. You can ask any of them (Amsoil and RL) specifically.

Got it.

So the snake oil is great stuff but it pollutes more. That's a great reason to use it.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Obviously they don't need to use an excess quantity of the anti-wear additives if the chemistry is correct. It's just cheaper to do so. That alone however doesn't mean they have the correct chemistry for Euro engines. Both the LL-01 and LL-04 meet emissions requirements yet LL-04 isn't the right oil with U.S. fuels. THAT is precisely why the boutique oil companies need to run the car maker tests and adjust their oil chemistry. If the boutique oils won't meet ACEA, API or the car maker oil specs then these companies should not be recommending their oils for these applications, IMO.

You probably forgot from Turkey's posts that the MSDS sheets tell us that PAO oils are best and the additive package is of secondary importance... I'm waiting for the Tea Leaf discussion, again.

It's environmental/emissions driving the additives. Case in point is the difference between LL01/LL04 specification (LL04 is C3).

As I said the selling point of the boutiques is the high additive levels in addition to the PAO or Ester base. This is why I said it'll be interesting to see how they react to the catalysts being installed in newer cars (although some owners would probably forgoe life of their cat for marginal benefit of higher amounst of a specific additive).

My predict that the boutiques will end up sticking with racing and older vehicle applications because without their big additives pack and PAO/Ester base the additional cost isn't justified.


For example I don't believe any of the boutiques sells an oil recommended for use in VW 507 or LL04 applications. Redline does sell a MB229.51 however which is interesting.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

My point on the LL-01 vs. LL-04 is both will meet U.S. emissions requirements but LL-04 doesn't provide the engine protection required with U.S. fuels so chemistry is important not just for emissions but for actual engine wear, scuffing, sludge, etc.

Actually it is emissions related since both perform the same (ACEA A3/B4) in the areas you've mentioned. LL01/LL04 are only different in that LL04 has the additional ACEA C3 rating whereas LL01 does not. Remember these oils are only backward compatible not the other way around.

IMO..VW507 is the uber oil interms of min additives to get the job done and I just don't see the boutiques offering such an oil. I think VW is the best example since VW has sold tens of thousands of TDi's(MY09+) in the US.

When California moves to the tougher emissions standards I think we'll see some changes in the oil market like we have already seen when it comes to diesel oil and the switch to ULSD.

[ManyMoonsAgo]

I don't know the answer to this question, but when BMW approves a LL01 rating on any particular oil, do they repeat the LL01 certification process on every engine application class in their lineup (i.e. N52, N54, N55, etc.)?

Edit - disregard. This is a dumb question; it is safe to assume that testing is performed on each engine class.

[Belarus]

Round & round we go....

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

THAT is why the car makers run the tests instead of speculating...

If the areas I mentioned were not the problem and emissions was the only concern, then BMW would not have suffered issues with cylinders/engines in the U.S. and they would not tell you LL-04 is unacceptable with U.S. fuels. The ACEA specs are only a portion of the LL-01/LL-04 oil sequnece test.

ROFL..you're still not connecting the dots are you?

Plug it in yourself.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/.../pc/index.html

Originally Posted by TrackRat

As far as VW oil specs are concerned the VW 507.00 looks good for overall performance but I suspect the VW 505.01 - 2005 is the best for reduced engine wear and durability. That is why Audi required it on all RS engines and VW on the PD TDI engines with the extreme cam lobe pressures of the unit injectors.

Oil sequence testing differentiates speculation from reality.

Well here's the deal 507 is supposed to be backward compatible except for 1 type of VW (can't remember). You don't see the boutiques selling the 507 becaue they'd have to reduce their additive package to meet the specification. However there are thousands of passionate VW's owners riding around with 507 as the mandatory lubricant and the boutiques are foregoing this market.


I'm done.

[pruettfan]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

How about, my local mechanic has been putting amsoil in european VW/Audi's for decades, and there has yet to be a single problem, with any engines he has serviced with the fluid? Its got to be better, than touting outdated BMW test sequences from 2001.

My guess is the same could be said by a mechanic who only uses mobil 1 or any other premium synthetic.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

As usual Turkey your mis-information is a disservice to BMW owners who want accurate important technical info. concerning their engine oil warranty REQUIREMENTS.

And you are a complete annoyance who works at a BMW stealership, or has his income in some way connected with BMWNA, which is why you insist on pushing cheap, wrong weight oil for our engines.

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Your constant hawking of PAO oils does not make your beliefs true, it just makes them your unsubstantiated beliefs. You seem to get angry when your beliefs are unsupported by reality, but reality isn't going to change just because you hold false beliefs

I've already posted links to multiple articles on base oil chemistry. These tests were preformed by people with phD's in organic chemistry, so some internet fanboy opinion is unecessary.

Originally Posted by TrackRat

As has been documented countless times BMW gas engine powered vehicles sold in the U.S. from 2006 on REQUIRE the use of BMW LL-01 approved oils to maintain the new vehicle engine warranty. BMW approved LL-04 oils are specifically not to be used in U.S. models per BMW. These are the FACTS. What people chose to do is up to them as long as they know their engine warranty can in fact be voided for NOT using LL-01 oil in U.S. gas engine models.

Hyundai warranties their cars too, but they don't give you a list of oils to use on a website. I have challenged the false belief in BMW LL01 oils, in all BMW engines made after 2006, when BMW LL01 5W30 failed in the 01-05 BMW M3 engines.

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Turkey - You seem to try every avenue to discredit the BMW engineers who actually test BMW engines to determine the proper engine oil REQUIREMENTS for the APPLICATION. BMW's testing, which you refuse to accept, has determined that the LL-01 oil is the REQUIRED oil for gas engine BMW models in the U.S. from 2006 onwards. It doesn't matter WHEN the LL-01 oil std. was created, what matters is that it's the PROPER oil for the APPLICATION.

BMW does not run tests on each individual engine. They did however leave a part number on the hood of your vehicle, which differs from car to car. The BMWLL01 dealership oil to be used in the N54, is NOT the same as the one to be used in the 328I!

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Your beliefs that because the oil std. was created in 2001 means that it is outdated is just as technically ignorant as your previously posted belief that the boutique oils provide superior BMW engine lubrication performance to BMW approved oils because the boutique oils COST MORE. You have no means to reach this conclusion without actual LL-01 oil sequence testing. Price does not dictate quality or actual engine performance. Price MAY be an indicator of quality or performance and it MAY not. Material Safety Data Sheets, (MSDS), do not tell ANYTHING about how an oil performs in an engine either but you continue to try to use the MSDS sheets for that purpose. You're in complete denial on the subject of engine oil performance in the engine

This is where you get confused: The proof that the 2001 standard, does not mean that all LL01 oils are to be used in all the engines, can be found in the fact that BMW specifies which dealership LL01, should be used in which engine. Don't like my example with the E46 M3? Then look at what happened to my BMW 335I while under warranty. When I brought it in for the dealership oil change, the wrong part number was put into my vehicle: 07510017866(BMWLL01) In less than 2,000 miles, my oil analyzer recorded complete degradation. I then took it back into a different dealership, which changed the oil to: 07510017954(BMWLL01). This oil, which is the one etched on my vehicle, did not show the same degradation until well after 7,500 miles.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

As we have discussed countless times and you refuse to accept, BMW states in writing that the LL-04 oil is NOT acceptable for use in U.S. gas engine models from 2006 onwards yet it's a perfectly good oil. Using the REQUIRED LL-01 oil is not only appropriate to maintain your new vehicle warranty, BMW has confirmed via actual engine/oil testing which they conduct year round that for the U.S. you need to run LL-01 approved oils

No BMW did not test the fuels in the USA, just like they did not run individual tests, per engine type, which is why they end up recommending the same oil for use in a 2.5L I-6, and a 5.0L V10. If this was anything concrete, BMW would have told us, what specifically caused their recommendation, as the formular of fuels in the US varies.

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Once again we can discuss oil base stock vs. actual oil performance in operating engines...

A mute point, since science is science. Synthetic is man made, mineral oil, is made by nature. end of discussion

Originally Posted by TrackRat

NO MAJOR CAR MAKER specifies the oil base stock required for passenger car oil specifications because it is NOT the oil base stock that determines the overall LUBRICATION PERFORMANCE IN YOUR ENGINE. It is the TOTAL OIL FORMULATION that determines an oil's performance in an engine. The additive package is the primary factor in determining an oil's performance. Therefore you could select many PAO based oils that are perfectly good oils for some application but they are NOT SUITABLE FOR USE IN A BMW ENGINE unless they are LL-01 approved

Thats just completely backward. PAO base stocks don't crack over time, with increasing oxidative, and thermal stress, like a V10 M5 dishes out. mineral oil based "LL01" oils, need their additive package to hold off the degradation, and eventual cracking. So by your logic, its the additive package (<30% of total formulation), not the base stock (70% of the total formulation) thats most important?

Originally Posted by TrackRat

The use of LL-01 approved oils of the correct viscosity is a U.S. BMW warranty REQUIREMENT. BMW does NOT care what brand or oil base stock the oil is as long as it has been tested by BMW and approved to LL-01 specs and is the correct viscosity - because that is what your engine actually REQUIRES.

For those looking to know if an oil is APPROVED to BMW LL-01 specs check the oil bottle to be sure it states:

APPROVED TO LL-01 or CERTIFIED to LL-01.

I agree with this statement. Its when you refer people to BMWUSA's short list of their buddies LL01, oil, that I cry foul, because like it or not, no two BMW LLO1 oils will last the same amount of time in an N54! Your welcome to come see my dealership records to prove this point, any day of the week!

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by cb1111

Perhaps we can put this into language that even TB can comprehend.

The purpose of any oil is to lubricate.
Too little lubrication can lead to increased wear
Too much lubrication doesn't work well either
A manufacturer decides how the oil is supposed to perform
All LL-01 oil have virtually identical performance characteristics

The above are statements that readers (not even TB - but I'm sure he'll try) cannot disagree with.

Accordingly, if a poster says "I switched to xyz oil and the performance increased dramatically" then the oil he/she switched to is either the wrong viscosity and/or an oil that doesn't meet the required specs.

If there is any noticeable change in performance then there is also the related change in wear of that component - be it engine or drivetrain.

It really is pretty simple.

The only problem with this JUNK is that BMW has changed the oil requirements radically, in their previously released cars. Again, the E46 BMW M3, was released with a BMW LL01 5W30 as BMW's original, official recommendation. Why then are they putting in BMW LL01 Castrol 10W 60 TWS, today?

[Turkeybaster115]

Another thing that rats that need to get run over at the track fail to realize is that just because an oil sez BMWLL01, on it, doesn't mean its the right oil for your car, which is why you always want to check the weight of the part number written on your vehicle. That oil is BMW LL01 5W30, in the case of the 335I. Using Mobil 1 OW40, is obviously not adviseable, even if its on sale for $3.99 at autozone

[ManyMoonsAgo]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

The fact is that you don't know if the boutique oils or any other oils are appropriate for use in a BMW engine without proper LL-01 oil sequence testing. You can convince yourself of anything if you lie to yourself enough. Believing does not make it true.

I personally do not care what oil people use but I do find it unusual that people will do all they can to buy into the ad hype. If ad hype were all true companies like STP and many others would not have been fined millions of dollars for making unsubstantiated claims. It's been reported that Amsoil has also been sanctioned by the API for unscrupulous Biz practices so I'd take all the ad hype with a large grain of salt.

If these boutique oil purveyors ever have their oils properly tested and certified - which is highly unlikely, then and only then will we know if they are safe and appropriate for use in BMW or other Euro engines. Until then it's just baseless hype.

BTW, the flat earth society is of the same nature as the religion of oil faction... They don't want to have their beliefs refuted by facts or reality.

I am with you TrackRat, and I am certainly not looking to provoke you. I just took exception with the example you used.

The argument that the Earth is flat is an argument that ignores a universally accepted truth.

The argument that any given boutique oil is as good as a LL01 oil is an argument against no universally accepted truths . The only thing we know is that no boutique oil carries a LL01 rating. Further, this lack of rating is not because the oil was submitted and failed, rather it is due to the fact that the boutique oil was never submitted for testing in the first place.

These are two very different arguments and I simply took exception when you used the former to be analogous to the latter.

I hope we can all agree that no boutique oil carries a LL01 rating and leave it at that. Just about anything we say after that sentence is venturing into varying degrees of opinion.

Heck, I did not even get into this thread over this issue. I jumped in when I saw ambiguous language describing what would happen when one uses a non-LL01 oil in their car, specifically that one's engine warranty was voided the moment a non-LL01 oil was used.

My belief, and what was demonstrated to me by my Dealership, is no such sweeping standard is applied when a warranty claim is processed. The malfunction is investigated and root-cause is determined. From this determination, the applicability of warranty is assessed and applied.

I do not intend to put words in your mouth, but I believe you feel this is not the case, that BMW has every right to not honor the engine warranty, regardless of root-cause, once a non-LL01 oil is used.

While I have no doubt that some Dealerships would dismiss warranty claims without actually providing an honest disposition of the malfunction, I still feel that to be a great injustice if the malfunction had nothing to do with the oil in service.

Lastly, do not misunderstand my intent. I have no desire for BMW to foot the bill for malfunctions associated with modification decisions. I firmly believe that once an individual decides to break the factory configuration or stray from factory mandates, that individual must be prepared to accept the consequences of those actions. What I do ask of BMW though, is to provide an accurate assessment of malfunctions and base their decisions off that assessment, rather than an instant dismissal.

Happily, this has been my experience with my Dealership, so my experience with BMW has been fantastic. But, as they say, mileage may vary for others.

[cb1111]

Originally Posted by ManyMoonsAgo

I am with you TrackRat, and I am certainly not looking to provoke you. I just took exception with the example you used.

The argument that the Earth is flat is an argument that ignores a universally accepted truth.

The argument that any given boutique oil is as good as a LL01 oil is an argument against no universally accepted truths . The only thing we know is that no boutique oil carries a LL01 rating. Further, this lack of rating is not because the oil was submitted and failed, rather it is due to the fact that the boutique oil was never submitted for testing in the first place.

These are two very different arguments and I simply took exception when you used the former to be analogous to the latter.

I hope we can all agree that no boutique oil carries a LL01 rating and leave it at that. Just about anything we say after that sentence is venturing into varying degrees of opinion.

Heck, I did not even get into this thread over this issue. I jumped in when I saw ambiguous language describing what would happen when one uses a non-LL01 oil in their car, specifically that one's engine warranty was voided the moment a non-LL01 oil was used.

My belief, and what was demonstrated to me by my Dealership, is no such sweeping standard is applied when a warranty claim is processed. The malfunction is investigated and root-cause is determined. From this determination, the applicability of warranty is assessed and applied.

I do not intend to put words in your mouth, but I believe you feel this is not the case, that BMW has every right to not honor the engine warranty, regardless of root-cause, once a non-LL01 oil is used.

While I have no doubt that some Dealerships would dismiss warranty claims without actually providing an honest disposition of the malfunction, I still feel that to be a great injustice if the malfunction had nothing to do with the oil in service.

Lastly, do not misunderstand my intent. I have no desire for BMW to foot the bill for malfunctions associated with modification decisions. I firmly believe that once an individual decides to break the factory configuration or stray from factory mandates, that individual must be prepared to accept the consequences of those actions. What I do ask of BMW though, is to provide an accurate assessment of malfunctions and base their decisions off that assessment, rather than an instant dismissal.

Happily, this has been my experience with my Dealership, so my experience with BMW has been fantastic. But, as they say, mileage may vary for others.

Most of us are on the same page here.

My goal was to make people understand that the failure to use approved lubricants can lead to warranty issues.

What they do thereafter is their problem.*

*actually, it isn't their problem in most cases. More likely, it becomes the problem of the poor schmick that buys the car down the road.

[Belarus]

Originally Posted by cb1111

Most of us are on the same page here.

My goal was to make people understand that the failure to use approved lubricants can lead to warranty issues.

What they do thereafter is their problem.*

*actually, it isn't their problem in most cases. More likely, it becomes the problem of the poor schmick that buys the car down the road.

In that case fck it, I'm switching to NON LL01 certified boutique snake oil, whose marketing sold me on their hype...

[Belarus]

This way I can jump on Turkey Russian roulette band wagon and promote the miracles it does for my car .......

[cb1111]

Originally Posted by Belarus

In that case fck it, I'm switching to NON LL01 certified boutique snake oil, whose marketing sold me on their hype...

Wooo-hoo. I strongly recommend my Maple syrup, cottage cheese, cashew bits, olive oil and Sake blend suitable for all cars.

Based on Turkey's suggestion, it now comes with a Kung PAO chicken base and it must be good - it costs only $35 a pint.

If you qualify to join my MLM scam (err plan) the you can buy it for $34 and receive a $1 rebate for every new salesperson you recruit.

To join, you'll only need to place an initial order of 54321 pints - an amount that will store eaily in your spare 3 car garage.

Because of the high quality product, each pint comes unlabeled so you can sell it as motor oil, liquid fertilizer, salad dressing or nutritional supplement. Multi-use labels are included.

[Chriztofor]

Ok, there is no way I am reading six pages of threads over this battle over approved v. non-approved oil. I just have one question. If the other "non-approved" oil is so good and so expensive why don't they just get the LL01 approval stamp on it. That would end all debates on this topic.