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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > N54 Throttle Sensitivity Discovery thread



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      05-07-2019, 01:06 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl View Post
The onlly I8A0S car that I've tried this on so far was on a single turbo car with a custom flash tune. Not the most representative of the cars here I know.

Was throwing the errors every 1-3 minutes or so, after I flashed a linear throttle it seemed like it was fixed and completed a test drive no worries.

Another thing that skews this is that we did a manual conversion on that car and the kickdown switch option was ticked as well, I removed this option along with adding the custom linear throttle at the same time.

As my friend drove home it threw the torque monitoring errors a couple times. Then since then it has not thrown the error at all, it has been 3 weeks so far.
Perhaps try stock throttle map with a stock torque mon a/b table and see if anything would pop up.

Zeroed the clutch intervention table - no faults.

Didnít feel this table do anything ...
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      05-07-2019, 03:15 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by RSL View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarAbuser View Post
Thanks for making the information public

I converted all of the DCT tables into the INA0S XDF. It seems there's some differences between the 35i and 35is DCT settings so I'll be trying those out before starting to use custom values.
If DCT on stock rom, watch your 1st gear standing start RPM, boost mean, etc. More RPM movement is expected, but it's messy on a normal start around 25-35% pedal in sport. It's not drive off assist, already tried. I think up to around 1200rpm, it's actually clutch engagement (stock does it a bit, just not as bad), but haven't had a chance to verify. I haven't done any WOT shifts in it yet either.

Also, there are at least 2 INA0S versions. One I have is fairly pedestrian, the other already has quite a few values the same as IKM0S stock. There are a bunch more interesting things it that would be fun to get at though. I found switches to enable 1M MDrive, Sport mode, DKG, etc., but probably need at least clock spring, maybe sport switch, cluster and coding. 1M was clearly specifically set up for a DCT, I assume just in case. Makes me wonder if there are undiscovered EGS/DCT ZBs floating around for them. I think they'd almost have to set for a 2.56 or anything smaller than the M3 ZBs if there are.
RSL I dont know if im reading what you've written correctly but i think youre saying that with the tables zeroed on a DCT, take off from a standstill is affected adversely in that there arent enough revs and the clutch starts to engage and it gets messy ? Is that correct?
Im interested to learn more. Does it still creep on level ground foot of the brake and no throttle?

Also I believe the 1M DCT tables will be the same as the z4is tables(same engine tune) and so the EGS version to use with IKMOS is likely the z4is one. The only thing it wouldn't have is the adjustable launch control.

The 1M would have the M Drive additions and a number of people have converted their DCT cars with M3 shifter and TCU Software in an effort to retrofit. (I think youre a member of that forum and thread ?)Anything you find relating to Mdrive we'd be appreciative of over there.

LMB335IS dyezak You might want to read this ...
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      05-07-2019, 05:27 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Bean_Bun View Post
Perhaps try stock throttle map with a stock torque mon a/b table and see if anything would pop up.

Zeroed the clutch intervention table - no faults.

Didnít feel this table do anything ...
Not sure, but thought I saw CS and GS are related to fuel cutoff somewhere. They also have timers related to them.

Also, we need to start commenting what trans is being tested on in each post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aus335iguy View Post
RSL I dont know if im reading what you've written correctly but i think youre saying that with the tables zeroed on a DCT, take off from a standstill is affected adversely in that there arent enough revs and the clutch starts to engage and it gets messy ? Is that correct?
Im interested to learn more. Does it still creep on level ground foot of the brake and no throttle?

Also I believe the 1M DCT tables will be the same as the z4is tables(same engine tune) and so the EGS version to use with IKMOS is likely the z4is one. The only thing it wouldn't have is the adjustable launch control.

The 1M would have the M Drive additions and a number of people have converted their DCT cars with M3 shifter and TCU Software in an effort to retrofit. (I think youre a member of that forum and thread ?)Anything you find relating to Mdrive we'd be appreciative of over there.

LMB335IS dyezak You might want to read this ...
Not zeroed out, or even close, RPM can be pretty wild through ~1700rpm, but accel remains relatively smooth. Sizeable TMAP boost on 0psi target at low RPM/pedal is another issue, but see below for RPM.

I did confirm that clutch 1 is engaged the entire time RPM is wandering (or at least showing engaged) and that clutch torque and pressure are what are actually moving with it, so might be able to settle it back down with other torque changes in the DME still.

Still creeps off brake. I found a switch for drive off related to brake pedal, but that did not change anything. That might be in the TCU and/or use the brake light switch as a trigger, like it does for launch control.

I have no interest in doing the entire M3 drive line swap, mostly just to get DriveLogic, nor would I want a 3.15 FD even if I did. I'm curious about the 1M version of sport and DriveLogic now though, especially if only 335is or Z4is EGS/DCT ZB are needed. I haven't completely given up hope on maybe getting something to work on M3 ZB while keeping the 2.56 either. There are tables in there which make me think there's an outside chance it could still be workable. It would still just be a band aid compared to the full swap though, but a discussion for a different thread.

1st gear DCT from a stop, IKM0S stock base DCT corr and half IKM0S speed corr:
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      05-07-2019, 05:51 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarAbuser View Post
Thanks for making the information public

I converted all of the DCT tables into the INA0S XDF. It seems there's some differences between the 35i and 35is DCT settings so I'll be trying those out before starting to use custom values.

EDIT: XDF Added. Hopefully save people a bit of time. I only added the DCT tables as that's all I need.
Thank you,

I was trying to convert from the old OLS directly to my INAOS file Z4 35 IS and just could not get enough things to line up. I was close but could not get enough matching to feel good.
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      05-07-2019, 06:38 PM   #49
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Had the opportunity to try out I8A0S version. Loving it! Left the (AT) D mode stock, zeroed out Sport and Manual mode, very responsive no dead pedal
Stage 2+ tune Using stock throttle map. No errors so far.

Last edited by GovernUrMental; 05-08-2019 at 04:47 AM..
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      05-08-2019, 02:40 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSL View Post
If DCT on stock rom, watch your 1st gear standing start RPM, boost mean, etc. More RPM movement is expected, but it's messy on a normal start around 25-35% pedal in sport. It's not drive off assist, already tried. I think up to around 1200rpm, it's actually clutch engagement (stock does it a bit, just not as bad), but haven't had a chance to verify. I haven't done any WOT shifts in it yet either.

Also, there are at least 2 INA0S versions. One I have is fairly pedestrian, the other already has quite a few values the same as IKM0S stock. There are a bunch more interesting things it that would be fun to get at though. I found switches to enable 1M MDrive, Sport mode, DKG, etc., but probably need at least clock spring, maybe sport switch, cluster and coding. 1M was clearly specifically set up for a DCT, I assume just in case. Makes me wonder if there are undiscovered EGS/DCT ZBs floating around for them. I think they'd almost have to set for a 2.56 or anything smaller than the M3 ZBs if there are.
Did you try just using "is" values in those tables? I've attached a screenshot of them. Unless there's another table involved I wouldn't expect problems.
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      05-08-2019, 08:07 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarAbuser View Post
Did you try just using "is" values in those tables? I've attached a screenshot of them. Unless there's another table involved I wouldn't expect problems.
Thanks, those are the same as my stock values (335is). I don't think it's a problem, stock does it to a lesser degree. I'm just not a fan of having my 1st gear RPM look like a 2 year old drew a line with a crayon or the way it feels. I'll have more time to mess with it next week, something just needs to be evened out.
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      05-08-2019, 09:11 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSL View Post
Thanks, those are the same as my stock values (335is). I don't think it's a problem, stock does it to a lesser degree. I'm just not a fan of having my 1st gear RPM look like a 2 year old drew a line with a crayon or the way it feels. I'll have more time to mess with it next week, something just needs to be evened out.
As others have mentioned, it could be caused by certain tables like "requested torque mon factor" which are often changed in tunes without people appreciating what they do. A lot of the values people have are throwbacks from the old COBB OTS maps.

"Throttle Angle Aggression in Overload" is another one which could be causing these issues.
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      05-08-2019, 09:18 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSL View Post
Not sure, but thought I saw CS and GS are related to fuel cutoff somewhere. They also have timers related to them.

Also, we need to start commenting what trans is being tested on in each post.
I have an AT. The fuel cutoff would be in the shift bog section ...
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      05-08-2019, 09:20 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarAbuser View Post
As others have mentioned, it could be caused by certain tables like "requested torque mon factor" which are often changed in tunes without people appreciating what they do. A lot of the values people have are throwbacks from the old COBB OTS maps.

"Throttle Angle Aggression in Overload" is another one which could be causing these issues.
Totally agreed. Reverted back to stock for those tables after it started causing all sorts of little issues from throttling to gearshifts ...
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      05-08-2019, 09:30 AM   #55
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Tested on some I8AOS AT today.

Zeroed AT tables.

Got the 2D59 fault.

Reset load control adaptation and without any changes to any tables - fault did not resurface.
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      05-08-2019, 10:44 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSL View Post
If DCT on stock rom, watch your 1st gear standing start RPM, boost mean, etc. More RPM movement is expected, but it's messy on a normal start around 25-35% pedal in sport. It's not drive off assist, already tried. I think up to around 1200rpm, it's actually clutch engagement (stock does it a bit, just not as bad), but haven't had a chance to verify. I haven't done any WOT shifts in it yet either.

Also, there are at least 2 INA0S versions. One I have is fairly pedestrian, the other already has quite a few values the same as IKM0S stock. There are a bunch more interesting things it that would be fun to get at though. I found switches to enable 1M MDrive, Sport mode, DKG, etc., but probably need at least clock spring, maybe sport switch, cluster and coding. 1M was clearly specifically set up for a DCT, I assume just in case. Makes me wonder if there are undiscovered EGS/DCT ZBs floating around for them. I think they'd almost have to set for a 2.56 or anything smaller than the M3 ZBs if there are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aus335iguy View Post
RSL I dont know if im reading what you've written correctly but i think youre saying that with the tables zeroed on a DCT, take off from a standstill is affected adversely in that there arent enough revs and the clutch starts to engage and it gets messy ? Is that correct?
Im interested to learn more. Does it still creep on level ground foot of the brake and no throttle?
That's when the speed throttle correction tables should be used, so at very low speeds (i.e. take off 1st gear), you'd want to try to maintain the stock throttle correction for a smoother start. Once the car has taken off, zero everything else in the correction tables.

Fwiw, I noticed my takeoff felt different too, my car is a manual, but I noticed that I need to slip the clutch more on takeoffs, and I needed more throttle (otherwise the engine will stall). I got used to it very quickly though, my takeoffs now are just as normal as before. But that's obviously because the human factor adapts much easier and quicker to these things. Maybe if you reset the DCT adaptations it could help with a smoother takeoff/smoother clutch take-up from a standstill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aus335iguy View Post
Also I believe the 1M DCT tables will be the same as the z4is tables(same engine tune) and so the EGS version to use with IKMOS is likely the z4is one. The only thing it wouldn't have is the adjustable launch control.
1M and 35is DCT cars use different tunes, yes they're both 250kW (335hp), but the bins are different. IKM0S (1M) was revised by BMW ///M for better responsiveness and more linear power delivery, slightly better top end. INA0S is more similar to the IJE0S PPK bin.

The DCT tables in the IKM0S don't do anything, there was never an intention to make a DCT 1M either, there's no pre-production 1M DCT ZB... etc. the only reason these tables are there, is because BMW have a habit of copying all tables to the bin whether they're used or not, and they only modify the tables that require modifying for the specific application.

For example, IKM0S has tables for the exhaust flap operation, but the 1M doesn't even have an exhaust flap, so yeah the tables don't do anything on the 1M, and they were just copied across for the sake of it, but they're unmodified for the application and they don't do anything. That's how BMW have always done things. If I were them, I'd zero out all the unused tables, to avoid confusion imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aus335iguy View Post
The 1M would have the M Drive additions and a number of people have converted their DCT cars with M3 shifter and TCU Software in an effort to retrofit. (I think youre a member of that forum and thread ?)Anything you find relating to Mdrive we'd be appreciative of over there.

LMB335IS dyezak You might want to read this ...
M Drive in the 1M is different to the M Drive on the E9x M3, the 1M M Drive is already working on any car with IKM0S, clock spring (SZL), and 1M/M3 DSC module or just the 1M/M3 DSC software flashed on the standard 135i/335i DSC module. I already have the 1M M Drive working on my car with the IKM0S. But this is not what LMB335IS, dyezak and I are chasing. We're chasing the real proper ///M Drive from the E9x M3, the one where you can set your favorite driving options on the M Drive menu in the iDrive, and call up the preset my pressing the M button on the steering wheel. This engages M Dynamic Mode (MDM) on the DSC too, not just give you a sharper throttle response like the M button on the 1M steering wheel does.

I am working on discovering the real deal M Drive it's very time consuming, but I might have gotten closer to the solution today, I'll do some testing this Friday hopefully.

LMB335IS and dyezak, you both have IKM0S bins already running on your cars, as mentioned above, the DCT tables on the IKM0S are untouched from previous bins revisions. That means that you guys aren't enjoying any of the additional responsiveness of the IKM0S, as only the manual throttle correction tables are zeroed out, DCT and AT throttle correction tables are just standard (check screenshot below, I marked the manual throttle correction table in green, it's all zeroed out from factory on the 1M).

This might explain why you guys didn't report any differences in throttle responsiveness when you moved to IKM0S on your 335is DCT, but as soon as I flashed IKM0S to my manual 335i, it was like a revelation, I could immediately feel the difference in response I documented it in my build thread here and here.

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      05-08-2019, 11:34 AM   #57
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Yeah, it's RPM mostly and on an otherwise stock rom, nothing to do with limits or monitors. Speed needs to stay at 1.0 down low for sure, might even need to raise base at low speed through 1500-2000rpm.

Watered down DriveLogic would be fine by me, I don't want to do the whole M3 driveline swap, but dug up most of the gear, FD and shift threshold tables, so may try at some point and see if the RPM, shifts, torque calcs, etc. might be made to work with the M3 ZB. I set the stock rom to 2.81 FD for calcs and it didn't freak. Torques are way less jumpy. I'll play with it more, but they don't even use the advertised DCT gears for calcs in all spots or even use the same ratio for the same gear in others.

These are in 1KM0S, 1M DKG app switch:
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      05-08-2019, 03:58 PM   #58
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Do we have access to the M3 roms to see what the settings are in those?
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      05-09-2019, 07:48 AM   #59
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This is some really impressive work, outstanding!

If by any chance you get the time and oppurtunity, would you take a look at the E90 N55? Wondering if the N55 has the same throttle sensitivity table and if it could be modified/sharpened.
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      05-09-2019, 12:52 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carguy138 View Post
This is some really impressive work, outstanding!

If by any chance you get the time and oppurtunity, would you take a look at the E90 N55? Wondering if the N55 has the same throttle sensitivity table and if it could be modified/sharpened.
As MHD is involved, I'd suspect that they have vested interest to bring this feature as an flashing option to as many platforms as they can.
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      05-09-2019, 02:45 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Works View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by carguy138 View Post
This is some really impressive work, outstanding!

If by any chance you get the time and oppurtunity, would you take a look at the E90 N55? Wondering if the N55 has the same throttle sensitivity table and if it could be modified/sharpened.
As MHD is involved, I'd suspect that they have vested interest to bring this feature as an flashing option to as many platforms as they can.
Just a letter of finding them if they exist, which they more than likely do.
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      05-09-2019, 04:51 PM   #62
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Any "reviews" of people who tested it ?

How does it feel compared to the stock throttle mapping ?
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      05-10-2019, 01:38 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studio54 View Post
Any "reviews" of people who tested it ?

How does it feel compared to the stock throttle mapping ?
Somehow this whole thread contains reviews.
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      05-10-2019, 03:33 AM   #64
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Somehow this whole thread contains reviews.
Relax man

I read it, but for example, i didn't find much details about the way it feels during spirited driving, does it make a difference in term of performance, does it trigger more DTC, or wiggles and so..

As i never tried any 1M, i guess i will have to try by myself when it's possible with MHD.
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      05-10-2019, 04:19 AM   #65
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The torque max difference table needs to be changed for I8AOS AT to address the 2d59 fault.

The load control reset was temporary. It came back after a day.

Since that table was changed - it has been fine for days.
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      05-10-2019, 06:05 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Bean_Bun View Post
The torque max difference table needs to be changed for I8AOS AT to address the 2d59 fault.

The load control reset was temporary. It came back after a day.

Since that table was changed - it has been fine for days.
Torque monitor max difference? I haven't had the 2D59 issue myself, but still good to know.
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