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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > N54 Throttle Sensitivity Discovery thread



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      05-10-2019, 11:48 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aus335iguy View Post
Do we have access to the M3 roms to see what the settings are in those?
I have the MSS60 OLS files from the E9x M3, way better than just having bins/roms or XDF's, OLS are factory files that explain what every single byte in the ECU memory bin does. OLS files usually leak out of BMW's headquarters in Germany by BMW employees, and they popup online in exchange for $$$$$.

The MSS60 is a completely different ECU to the MSD80 or MSD81. It's not a simple as copying the ///M Drive settings across from the MSS60.

///M Drive is referred to as Sportmodus (Sport Mode) in E9x M3 OLS, and normal mode is referred to as Komfortmodus (Comfort Mode).

You can see in the below OLS screenshot from the E9x M3 MSS60's OLS, the servotronic steering weight changes when the sport/comfort mode is engaged or disengaged. On the 1M and other N54 cars the Servotronic steering (if equipped) is controlled by the JBBF module. The N54 DME's aren't capable of controlling other modules in the car like the S65 DME can.



On the M3 everything is controlled by the MSS60 DME. That's why I think ///M Drive will be very hard to retrofit without adding an actual MSS60 DME in the ECU box under the bonnet. The only successful ///M Drive retrofit on a N54 car involves adding an additional DME from the M3, an MSS60 with only the necessary minimal wiring going to it, to provide it power and CANBUS connection.

It's not impossible to achieve this on IKM0S, it just becomes an effort vs reward kind of thing, I know for me personally I prefer the car to always feel sharp. If I had a soft comfortable lazy mode and sport sharp mode that can be toggled by a ///M button on the steering wheel, I'll definitely never use the comfort mode. Helps with making the car feel consistent over time too, as you always get the same exact response and behaviour from the car... etc.

I'll still continue to look into it in my free time out of curiosity/interest, but I am not optimistic that I'll find out anything anytime soon tbh , at least not by myself, I need a group of guys that have experience with low level computing and are familiar with hex editors, analysing OLS files, familiar with WinOLS, XDF's... etc.

Last edited by PeterY; 05-11-2019 at 05:11 AM..
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      05-11-2019, 02:27 AM   #68
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That's a great explanation thanks Pete. No ones ever seen this mythical n54 Mdrive conversion. We're all going on clues that BimaExtremeRetro has left us. He mentioned a second DME but I never twigged that's why it was needed. It would make the price of the conversion even further out of reach.
Gotta pay to play I suppose
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      05-12-2019, 05:30 AM   #69
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Pete, I’m interested in futureproofing my 135 and changing the MSD80 to a 81. At the same time I could get it converted to IK, can you detail how involved the process was for you and did you get all the 1M features to work on your car?
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      05-13-2019, 11:57 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aus335iguy View Post
The IKMOS ROM swap requires some fettling and no one is sharing publicly how to swap over. I’ve never heard why though. There are a number of people who’ve done it

I do know that it can’t be done with my skill set (let’s call it that) lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Works View Post
Pete, I’m interested in futureproofing my 135 and changing the MSD80 to a 81. At the same time I could get it converted to IK, can you detail how involved the process was for you and did you get all the 1M features to work on your car?
I had heaps pm's asking how to get the IKM0S tune bin from the 1M to run on a standard N54 135i/335i.

I thought about whether I am going to post this publicly or not, and eventually decided to post it to help push the platform develop. The issue with the N54 and other similar BMW platforms, is information hoarding!

No one shares anything or any new discoveries, it's crippling the development of the platform, and I wouldn't want to play a role in that. I discovered how to flash the IKM0S myself with the help of two of friends (@vtl is one of them), and it involved heaps of trial and error on my car, and stuffing around. So I own the rights to the information, and I chose to post publicly to help others that are interested to head in the same paths.

Look at all other performance car platforms, JDM cars, EVO's, WRX's, Muscle cars... etc. they're all well developed and much more understood, because people don't hoard information and they don't hide discoveries like the case on N54 and other turbo BMW's!

In the name of freedom of information for everyone , there you have it, Part 1 of the post is discussing in details how to move from MSD80 to MSD81, and all what's involved in the process (including details for the nerds), and Part 2 of the post discusses how any MSD81 135i/335i can migrate to IKM0S which is the 1M tune bin, I also included the XDF at the end of the post with the bits that require changing defined.

Head to my build thread, post no. 13, link: https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1598910

Pete

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Originally Posted by carguy138 View Post
This is some really impressive work, outstanding!

If by any chance you get the time and oppurtunity, would you take a look at the E90 N55? Wondering if the N55 has the same throttle sensitivity table and if it could be modified/sharpened.
I'll need N55 or S55 OLS files for this, I've looked heaps online before, and could only find a crappy one that is very messy to work with, maybe if anyone has decent OLS files for the two aforementioned engines they can share, I'll look into finding the tables through them.
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Last edited by PeterY; 05-14-2019 at 12:50 AM..
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      05-14-2019, 02:28 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterY View Post
I thought about whether I am going to post this publicly or not, and eventually decided to post it to help push the platform develop. The issue with the N54 and other similar BMW platforms, is information hoarding!

Look at all other performance car platforms, JDM cars, EVO's, WRX's, Muscle cars... etc. they're all well developed and much more understood, because people don't hoard information and they don't hide discoveries like the case on N54 and other turbo BMW's!
Thank you! I've previously been part of the EVO community, got my IX migrated years ago to dual fuel and know exactly what you mean. Somehow this platform is much more closed than the others that I have had the pleasure to be hobbyin' with.

Again, thanks for taking the community-first stance as you guys are not seemingly trying to benefit financially from your discoveries, but are more geared towards helping others with their hobbies and taking the next steps on the road of learning more / acquiring knowledge.
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      05-14-2019, 04:02 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterY View Post
I thought about whether I am going to post this publicly or not, and eventually decided to post it to help push the platform develop. The issue with the N54 and other similar BMW platforms, is information hoarding!

No one shares anything or any new discoveries, it's crippling the development of the platform, and I wouldn't want to play a role in that. I discovered how to flash the IKM0S myself with the help of two of friends (@vtl is one of them), and it involved heaps of trial and error on my car, and stuffing around. So I own the rights to the information, and I chose to post publicly to help others that are interested to head in the same paths.
I partly agree with you.
If you research a lot you will find a lot of information. Most of it here and on other platforms never got deleted.

Donīt forget the stuff done by Trebila, V8Bait, Jake@Motiv, Wedge, B*Q*Tuning, Martial@MHD BEFORE it went commercial. There was group research and there was a lot knowledge shared.

Without them i would not have Tunerpro with working XDF files for my Bin.

But at one point people figured they can make money with it, and i am completely fine with it. Why not. It is their right to make money with knowledge.

But sadly also knowledge sharing with enthusiasts who are eager to do things themselves went dead.

---------

BUT. I am really happy and grateful that you are here and share knowledge again with all of us to make further steps on the N54 platform. You kind of went oldschool

Great!

I hope you will also give us the insight of flashing the DSC Module in the near future!
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      05-14-2019, 05:40 PM   #73
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Flashed this on my I8A0S dme and the car just kicks! I see now why the 1M had such lower torque request maps now. I'm using a slightly modified torque request low map, and the car totally changed from before.

Torque limiting nannies maxed out, and torque monitoring a/b all set to 1. No fault codes after a days worth of driving.

Thank you again for releasing something people could've easily made money from.
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      05-15-2019, 02:54 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarAbuser View Post
Did you try just using "is" values in those tables? I've attached a screenshot of them. Unless there's another table involved I wouldn't expect problems.
As an update to this:

I tried the "is" values which funnily enough are higher than the normal "i" values which further dampens the throttle response. As expected the throttle felt less alive and I noticed that the RPM would fluctuate when the car came to a stop and the DCT disengages.

I then just reverted to the stock "i" values and multiplied them by 0.9 in the "Basic Correction (DCT)" and "Basic Correction - Vehicle Speed (DCT)" and that was a success.

I didn't get chance to do a full test drive, only just my commute, but I did notice the car liven up.
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      05-15-2019, 08:24 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarAbuser View Post
As an update to this:

I tried the "is" values which funnily enough are higher than the normal "i" values which further dampens the throttle response. As expected the throttle felt less alive and I noticed that the RPM would fluctuate when the car came to a stop and the DCT disengages.

I then just reverted to the stock "i" values and multiplied them by 0.9 in the "Basic Correction (DCT)" and "Basic Correction - Vehicle Speed (DCT)" and that was a success.

I didn't get chance to do a full test drive, only just my commute, but I did notice the car liven up.
Lowering one or both makes the pedal more responsive on DCT for sure. What I was taking issue with was the widely wandering RPM for standing start in 1st gear on DCT. I think all I did was confuse people though and stopped mentioning it lol It may be more an annoyance to me than an actual problem, but I'd be curious to see what a log of your standing start 1st gear looks like at some point.
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      05-15-2019, 08:42 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSL View Post
Lowering one or both makes the pedal more responsive on DCT for sure. What I was taking issue with was the widely wandering RPM for standing start in 1st gear on DCT. I think all I did was confuse people though and stopped mentioning it lol It may be more an annoyance to me than an actual problem, but I'd be curious to see what a log of your standing start 1st gear looks like at some point.
I'll do some logging later. Going to try lower the values even more to see if there's any negatives of going too far.
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      05-15-2019, 09:06 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarAbuser View Post
I'll do some logging later. Going to try lower the values even more to see if there's any negatives of going too far.
Thanks. The only 2 potential problems might be drag launch standing starts no matter how light getting into the pedal and potentially surging at cruise/constant low pedal/load.
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      05-15-2019, 12:55 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSL View Post
Thanks. The only 2 potential problems might be drag launch standing starts no matter how light getting into the pedal and potentially surging at cruise/constant low pedal/load.
Here's the log of the drive home. See if you see the same behaviour you were getting.

https://datazap.me/u/rich/v59-thrott...g=0&data=13-24

I'm thinking I should have also selected vehicle speed. Hopefully you can tell when the car is at a stop from revs.
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      05-15-2019, 03:04 PM   #79
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I'm not entirely clear on what all the effects will be but I'm glad someone is having a go at it. I'm sure if we were in a pub we'd understand each other perfectly. What with all of the noises and hand gestures us car guys do lol
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      05-15-2019, 10:20 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aus335iguy View Post
I'm not entirely clear on what all the effects will be but I'm glad someone is having a go at it. I'm sure if we were in a pub we'd understand each other perfectly. What with all of the noises and hand gestures us car guys do lol
If anything goes too far, it will probably be pretty obvious in short order

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarAbuser View Post
Here's the log of the drive home. See if you see the same behaviour you were getting.

https://datazap.me/u/rich/v59-thrott...g=0&data=13-24

I'm thinking I should have also selected vehicle speed. Hopefully you can tell when the car is at a stop from revs.
Yeah, you have it too and you're compensating with the pedal, whether you realize it or not. More pedal at start, back off as it sets around 1100-1200rpm, then settle into a smooth accel. Stock does it too, but it's nowhere near as noticeable to me and I can't unnotice it now lol It might be in the TCU, but I'll see if I can smooth it out on the DME side at some point.

Apparently attachments aren't working, but for example, your RPM between the markers (DCT in 1st from a stop for anyone not following):

https://datazap.me/u/rich/v59-thrott...mark=4589-4613
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      05-16-2019, 12:33 AM   #81
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After i read what changes to be done and that Justin took his Z4i values *0.9 i tried it also.

But my stock values are different to the z4i or z4is.

My car is a german e92 with PPK.



As you can see my stock values are all a bit lower already than those from the Z4.
I further reduced them by 10% and my throttle is already very very direct.

From reading what your problems are... I donīt have them. Standing start is absolutely fine. Always.

The only con i experienced was rpm oscillations in 1st gear at around 1.5k RPM when hitting throttle a bit more. Nothing else.


My thinking is. As the issue is only in 1st gear (may be also 2nd but wasnīt lucky to force it) i will try to change the first four "Basic Correction - Vehicle Speed (DCT)" columns back to stock to see if oscillation is gone.
Another thought is that the "Basic Correction (DCT)" Y-Axis is not Load or something but gear. This will be my second test. I will change the first row back to stock and see what happens.

Maybe this helps.


One more thought:
May be the DCT #ZSUB Flash plays also a role?
And i have linear throttle from the Tuning Excel Sheet Justin made in the past.

Last edited by JohnDaviz; 05-16-2019 at 12:45 AM..
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      05-16-2019, 03:13 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSL View Post
Yeah, you have it too and you're compensating with the pedal, whether you realize it or not. More pedal at start, back off as it sets around 1100-1200rpm, then settle into a smooth accel. Stock does it too, but it's nowhere near as noticeable to me and I can't unnotice it now lol It might be in the TCU, but I'll see if I can smooth it out on the DME side at some point.

Apparently attachments aren't working, but for example, your RPM between the markers (DCT in 1st from a stop for anyone not following):

https://datazap.me/u/rich/v59-thrott...mark=4589-4613
I know exactly what you mean. I had that behaviour already and it doesn't feel any worse.

I'm using the 135i TCU flash with the 3500rpm LC. I can't pinpoint when the issue started but I may flash back to the 35is TCU flash to rule out that.

I have attached the values I'm currently using. I think I'll step it back a little in the lower speed areas since it can be a little snappy. Also going to lower the torque request tables a bit.
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      05-16-2019, 10:00 AM   #83
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Update:

I changed the first three values (5,10,20) in the "90% Original" (Stock*0.9) in the "Basic Correction - Vehicle Speed (DCT) back to stock and left the rest as 90% values. It was different in a negative way.

2nd gear rpm oscillation between 1.3k and 3k RPM and with half throttle shifts were akward.

Also clutch behaviour was weird in low rpm (below 2k) in 1st and 2nd gear. Like it opened and when hitting the throttle also sligthly it was not closing until 2k rpm again.

Went back to all 90% and everything smooth and direct af again.

I just have minor oscillations in 2nd gear but in normal driving i donīt feel them.

My conclusion is that either the values should not be changed individually but only all equally at once. Or the values on the axis may be for speed but not literally 5,10... m/h or km/h.
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      05-17-2019, 12:45 AM   #84
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This morning (7:30am in Germany now) i changed the "Basic Correction - Vehicle Speed (DCT) to 95% of Stock back.

Reduced throttle response in all gears. More lag between pedal input and turbo spool over all Speeds in all gears. Also on Autobahn at above 100km/h.

Next test this afternoon will be:
  1. - Vehicle Speed Values at 95% from Stock
  2. - 70% from Stock for Basic Correction values as attached.
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Last edited by JohnDaviz; 05-17-2019 at 06:29 AM..
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      05-17-2019, 09:40 AM   #85
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Update again :-)

I tried the above settings.

I think this is getting complicated now and exceeds my knowledge of the cars logic.
I can only say what i felt and how this resulted in engine behavior.

In an easy world i would see it this way:

Pedal Input -> Basic Correction Vehicle Speed -> DME -> Basic Correction -> Engine (Throttle Body) /Gearbox

Basic Correction - Vehicle Speed (DCT)
Going from my Stock settings to 90% gives me the feeling that the throttle pedal input transferred to the DME is corrected with these values.


Basic Correction
When i reduced the values to 70% i instantly had the feeling that the DME signal to open or close the throttle body at the engine was WAY different. It was opening and closing significantly faster.

So these values may manipulate the throttle body acting speed?!

----------------

Do you know these videos of race cars with single mass flywheels and instant throttle when leaving the pits in 1st Gear? RPM up down up down. I had exactly this behavior in the first gear. I felt like in a race car.

----------------

Lowering these values also influenced my clutch behavior again. When rolling in 1st or 2nd gear from 2k RPM without throttle so that finally the clutch disengages and getting on the throttle again, the clutch was closing very late and it took quite some time.

EDIT:
It seems i just figured myself what is explained on page 1 ... dooh

Last edited by JohnDaviz; 05-17-2019 at 09:47 AM..
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      05-17-2019, 01:44 PM   #86
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Sorry.. Update

I think i have it!! It works AWESOME for me!!

IJE0S
Custom Map from V8Bait with aggressive turbo spool
German PPK DCT Flash equal to 335is Flash with 5k LC

Awesome throttle response. No oscillations. Instant shifts. No weird clutch!
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      05-17-2019, 03:33 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDaviz View Post
Sorry.. Update

I think i have it!! It works AWESOME for me!!

IJE0S
Custom Map from V8Bait with aggressive turbo spool
German PPK DCT Flash equal to 335is Flash with 5k LC

Awesome throttle response. No oscillations. Instant shifts. No weird clutch!
Thanks for sharing mate! Am I reading correctly that you halved the stock IJEOS values?
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      05-17-2019, 03:44 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDaviz View Post
Sorry.. Update

I think i have it!! It works AWESOME for me!!

IJE0S
Custom Map from V8Bait with aggressive turbo spool
German PPK DCT Flash equal to 335is Flash with 5k LC

Awesome throttle response. No oscillations. Instant shifts. No weird clutch!
I'd be curious what cruise about 2500rpm in 7th is like with that. Also, next time you're in MHD, can you go to the read codes section and tell me your current software number please? Thanks.
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