[Burrcold]

I saw two of these racing up and down the street I work on (Nissan Canada head office is right around the corner from my office). They sounded pretty good! Honestly, from my window I would have been hard pressed to know it wasn't just a couple of 370Z's if I didn't know any better.

[supra93]

https://www.nissanzclub.com/forum/th...nissan-z.1244/

[chris719]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

My argument is that the B58 closed deck design had nothing to do with reliability or performance.

This argument is worthless because you have no information to substantiate that. Unless you have seen BMWs simulations and FEA you have no idea. The simple fact is that every modern BMW engine with higher stock output than N55 is a closed deck design. Pretending you know why is pointless.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

I saw two of these racing up and down the street I work on (Nissan Canada head office is right around the corner from my office). They sounded pretty good! Honestly, from my window I would have been hard pressed to know it wasn't just a couple of 370Z's if I didn't know any better.

I mean for all intent and purposes, it is not much more than a retro update and uses the evolution from the older VQ motor.

TBH, fairly certain Nissan has zero expectation that this will be some class winner, but its main goal is to offer cheap way to get 400hp with a 6 speed in an attractive sports coupe, and this does that. No doubt we will see these at the next takeover event doing donuts.

[AlpineBoost]

https://youtu.be/yA6AiyZP3H8

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by chris719

This argument is worthless because you have no information to substantiate that. Unless you have seen BMWs simulations and FEA you have no idea. The simple fact is that every modern BMW engine with higher stock output than N55 is a closed deck design. Pretending you know why is pointless.

BMW uses the same B58 block in its diesel variants.

Diesels generate excessively high cylinder pressures thus need for closed deck blocks.

Most importantly, BMW is in the business to make money thus parts bin sharing is the norm.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

BMW uses the same B58 block in its diesel variants.

Diesels generate excessively high cylinder pressures thus need for closed deck blocks.

Most importantly, BMW is in the business to make money thus parts bin sharing is the norm.

That is true, but it's also true that you have absolutely zero knowledge of the reasoning behind their decision. We can only guess.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by chris719

That is true, but it's also true that you have absolutely zero knowledge of the reasoning behind their decision. We can only guess.

See page 20 of the B58 technical training manual, the section titled "Closed Deck". The B58 is part of the B "modular" engine family. It's block shared with the B57 turbo diesel.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1171642

I don't know how much clearer this needs to get for you. BMW wanted to keep engineering and manufacturing costs down and designing and making engine blocks is crazy expensive. Instead of having to develop two separate blocks this time around, they developed one that can be shared between the diesel and gasoline inline 4 and 6 B series motors. Since diesels have high cylinder pressures, the block needs to be closed. Simple as that and why they did it.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

See page 20 of the B58 technical training manual, the section titled "Closed Deck". The B58 is part of the B "modular" engine family. It's block shared with the B57 turbo diesel.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1171642

I don't know how much clearer this needs to get for you. BMW wanted to keep engineering and manufacturing costs down and designing and making engine blocks is crazy expensive. Instead of having to develop two separate blocks this time around, they developed one that can be shared between the diesel and gasoline inline 4 and 6 B series motors. Since diesels have high cylinder pressures, the block needs to be closed. Simple as that and why they did it.

I think you have totally lost sight of the argument. You said BMW went to closed deck strictly for cost cutting and that's not true. Yes there are cost savings to associated with modular engine families but it's clear the goal was higher efficiency and more power. Here's a good read that will hopefully enlighten you on just how many improvements were made over the N-engines. The goal was clearly to make a better engine and any cost savings are a byproduct of starting off with a better block than was used with the N-series engines. There was no point in making another open deck inline 6 when 365 horsepower was not going to cut it for next gen 2 and 3 series cars.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2016/07/29/b...nes-explained/

[chris719]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

See page 20 of the B58 technical training manual, the section titled "Closed Deck". The B58 is part of the B "modular" engine family. It's block shared with the B57 turbo diesel.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1171642

I don't know how much clearer this needs to get for you. BMW wanted to keep engineering and manufacturing costs down and designing and making engine blocks is crazy expensive. Instead of having to develop two separate blocks this time around, they developed one that can be shared between the diesel and gasoline inline 4 and 6 B series motors. Since diesels have high cylinder pressures, the block needs to be closed. Simple as that and why they did it.

Keep digging...

[NYG]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Making a ton of HP is one thing, making a ton of HP and maintaining any semblance of reliability is far different.

This - I always laugh at the ol' 2JZ motors run 1000+ hp all day long.

Yeah... except everyone I know or have known with one literally can't get their shitbox out of "reputable" shops.

Still a huge difference between a supercar and a JDM time bomb.

[pikkagtr]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

See page 20 of the B58 technical training manual, the section titled "Closed Deck". The B58 is part of the B "modular" engine family. It's block shared with the B57 turbo diesel.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1171642

I don't know how much clearer this needs to get for you. BMW wanted to keep engineering and manufacturing costs down and designing and making engine blocks is crazy expensive. Instead of having to develop two separate blocks this time around, they developed one that can be shared between the diesel and gasoline inline 4 and 6 B series motors. Since diesels have high cylinder pressures, the block needs to be closed. Simple as that and why they did it.

Diesel creates high cylinder pressure and turbo petrol also crates high cylinder pressures
The Nissan VR30DDTT is an evolution of the VQ block
But since we're on the subject of cost cutting, it uses the same open deck design, as opposed to the closed deck VR38DETT in the GTR
BMW saw that the old N series design needed some improvements so the changed to closed deck for the B58 and S55 variants
While also being able to utilize it on their diesel platforms
Win win for them

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by NYG

This - I always laugh at the ol' 2JZ motors run 1000+ hp all day long.

Yeah... except everyone I know or have known with one literally can't get their shitbox out of "reputable" shops.

Still a huge difference between a supercar and a JDM time bomb.

And to make that power they go huge single turbo, cams, head work, rods, pistons, crankshaft, etc.

[heavyD^2]

This car is starting to sound more disappointing all the time.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...issan-z-drive/

Ratchet up the pace and intensity, however, and the Z does not respond in kind as a sports car should. Pushed hard, the damping starts to feel insufficient, and the suspension bounds vertically overmuch, especially if the corners are uneven—as they often are in a fault zone. Understeer starts to creep in as the Z's nose weight comes to the fore, and the Bridgestone S007 B-Silent summer tires soon reveal they don't generate modern levels of sports-car stick, as evidenced by their 0.93-g showing on our skidpad. The brakes keep up their end of the bargain in terms of fade resistance and feel, but the tires limit the Z's 70-mph stopping performance to 166 feet and an unimpressive 331 feet for the stop from 100 mph. Both are better showings than the aforementioned 370Z (0.89 g and 180 feet), but they are far from class leading.

Those numbers didn't come without work, either. Our Z needed more than the usual number of cooling passes and a few key-up restarts to keep it operating properly. As it turns out, this engine's 400-hp rating requires 93 octane, but 91 octane is the local brew in the Western U.S. This was also a pre-production sample, so its engine-control unit may not have had final production software. Nissan lent us another car to try in Michigan on 93 octane, and its 60-mph performance improved to 4.1 seconds on the way to a quarter-mile time of 12.6 seconds at 115 mph. Still, past 370Z results showed little difference between 91 and 93, so either this new turbocharged engine is more octane sensitive than the outgoing naturally aspirated one, or our California test car indeed had some pre-production teething issues.

It's an improvement on the 370Z but this car is evidence that you can only do so much with an ancient chassis. Not great that performance drops off a lot with 91 octane gas. Not sure why they didn't outfit the car with better tires as it looks like the Bridgestones aren't doing the car any favors.

[M3WC]

I want to see someone review the actual budget $40k Z. But they seem to not exist.

[pikkagtr]

Originally Posted by M3WC

I want to see someone review the actual budget $40k Z. But they seem to not exist.

I honestly believe the Base Z will be akin to the stripper MT F80 and the Base 911 with zero options
Sure on paper they exist...but Dealers aren't going to order and stock them
Maybe someone will put a deposit down and order a few, but I doubt the majority of the availability on dealer lots will be Performance trims

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

I think you have totally lost sight of the argument. You said BMW went to closed deck strictly for cost cutting and that's not true. Yes there are cost savings to associated with modular engine families but it's clear the goal was higher efficiency and more power. Here's a good read that will hopefully enlighten you on just how many improvements were made over the N-engines. The goal was clearly to make a better engine and any cost savings are a byproduct of starting off with a better block than was used with the N-series engines. There was no point in making another open deck inline 6 when 365 horsepower was not going to cut it for next gen 2 and 3 series cars.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2016/07/29/b...nes-explained/

That link really doesn't provide any significant or useful information beyond what I've already said and provided. The linked BMW technical training manual for the B58 provides a ton of detail about the B58 and B series rationale. Including, and I quote:

With the closed-deck design, the coolant ducts around the cylinder are closed from above and provided with coolant bore holes. This design is mainly reserved for BMW diesel engines. Due to the high combustion pressures in the diesel engine, a greater degree of rigidity is required in order that the forces can be safely absorbed. As the gasoline engine uses the same unfinished cast part as the diesel engine, it also benefits from this robust design.

How does this statement directly from BMW literature not ground truth what I've been saying all along?

The open deck N54 and N55 blocks have shown that they can handle massive amounts of power beyond stock. Yes, the B58 closed deck block should hold more power, but we're talking the difference between one handling 600-700hp vs 800-900hp. How many people are really going to venture down that path? Once you start pushing lots of power above stock, the mechanical weak spots in the N54, N55, and B58 are the pistons and to a small extent, the rods. They all run hypereutectic pistons. They all can crack, break ringlands, etc. The N54s and pre-2013 N55s use cast rods. The 2014+ EWG N55s use the S55 forged rods. The M235 and M2 N55s alos use a forged crank. The B58 has a forged crank and rods.

The limiting factor in the "365hp" with the N55 was not the long block. The limiting factor was the intercooling followed by the the turbo size and fueling. It has NOTHING to do with the strength of the short block at all. Add a larger intercooler, a bigger HPFP, and larger turbo, and you're in business if you want 500-600whp. The B58 is obviously easier since it already has a bigger turbo, better intercooling, and fueling (especially the later B58s). Even then, it will need a larger turbo to get 500-600whp and a newer HPFP if it's a first gen B58.

Circling back to the Z, the open deck VR30TTs have been pretty dang reliable when pushed well beyond their stock power. Is it ideal for a 800hp+ build? No. But for 450-500whp/wtq, it's just fine and will be plenty fast for the street or strip. If you want a faster car, buy a faster stock car. Life is way easier.

So many on this site think that having a 600whp B58 is simply a tune and ethanol and it's fire and forget. Nothing could be further from the truth. None of those cars run perfectly and need constant babysitting. Same goes for 600whp N54s and N55s. Hell, even Stage 2 N54s, N55s and B58s can have issues depending on fuel grade, quality, aggressiveness of tune, etc. It just gets worse from there once you start adding mods.

[supra93]

https://www.nissanzclub.com/forum/th...ipes-etc.1256/

[See5]

Not surprised at the reviews. I mean, regardless of the new engine and suspension tweaks its still running on a fairly front-heavy 20 year old platform.

That's what is limiting it vs Supra IMO.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by supra93

https://www.nissanzclub.com/forum/th...ipes-etc.1256/

That's interesting that the manual/auto are the same price. Typically the auto version of any sports car carries a $1100-1800 premium.

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by supra93

https://www.nissanzclub.com/forum/th...ipes-etc.1256/

Up to $54k for this thing? Oof

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

That's interesting that the manual/auto are the same price. Typically the auto version of any sports car carries a $1100-1800 premium.

Where available, manuals are no cost options in BMWs and it's been that way for a long time. My 6MT M235 was no more than a 8AT AND I deleted the moonroof too which I didn't get any money back for that. In the end, I'll get way more money for my 6MT, no moonroof, LSD equipped M235 than the garden variety 8AT and moonroof equipped M235s the vast majority have. Manuals will ALWAYS command a higher resale in sporty cars compared to the autos, even if the autos are faster/quicker. I wanted my M235 to be the lightest, most connected, version of the car I could get. It weighs over 300lbs less than a comparatively equipped M235x. That's huge.