[dxb335d]

Nice graph Jules. I think its safe to say comparisons are best done on the day.

We can arrange another R/R day soon and would be good for you to attend!

We could try get a tuning boxed 335d also to see how that differs!


Carlos

[Hotcoupe]

Wow!

Thats some impressive figure for the torque,seems strange in comparison to the others from SRR which were reasonably consistent.

Who did the map Jude? and where was it dynoed?

I'm not casting any doubts here, just curious.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

Wow!

Thats some impressive figure for the torque,seems strange in comparison to the others from SRR which were reasonably consistent.

Who did the map Jude? and where was it dynoed?

I'm not casting any doubts here, just curious.

I think Jude's is DMS and it was done too at SRR. Im sure he will confirm this later!

[Jude1]

This dyno is exactly the same as SRR. It was done at TCS in Chesterfield and Charlie knows the owner very well (another Jules). There rollers are to within 1% of each other so a pretty good reflection. I think I know why the torque is so high though.

[Hotcoupe]

Jude1 This dyno is exactly the same as SRR. It was done at TCS in Chesterfield and Charlie knows the owner very well (another Jules). There rollers are to within 1% of each other so a pretty good reflection. I think I know why the torque is so high though.

And?

[330cdsport]

Hi Jude - How did you manage to get your car to rev on past the 4500 rpm limit that the 335d seems to incur on itself when it knows its on a RR?

See E-Maps (Simon) comments on the subject earlier.

[e-maps]

Originally Posted by 330cdsport

Hi Jude - How did you manage to get your car to rev on past the 4500 rpm limit that the 335d seems to incur on itself when it knows its on a RR?

See E-Maps (Simon) comments on the subject earlier.

I've had a look at the plots again from the SRR day.

RichardM with the DMS map stopped pulling power at 4000rpm

Tony AKA Evil diesel with my map stopped pulling power also at 4000rpm

Carlos stopped pulling at 4500rpm, DMS map

Hotcoupe (ian) stopped at 4300rpm, same map as Tony which stopped at 4000rpm

There is no rhym or reason, 335d dont like the dyno

[Jude1]

Hi Simon,

So why does mine rev to near 5000rpm?

I think that it is in the way it has been mapped (currently on 5th map).

Could you also prove/disprove this theory please - if a car already has a remap from let's say DMS and then you were asked to put one of your maps on the car, could it be that your map may not reach it's potential because ideally it should overlay the standard map and not an already remapped car? Another way of looking at it would be would you put the remapped car back to a standard map and then put your remap on to get the best results? Does this make sense?

Jules (aka Cyclone1 - PH)

[jjbirch]

i am still on my first map lol

[e-maps]

Originally Posted by Jude1

Hi Simon,

So why does mine rev to near 5000rpm?

I think that it is in the way it has been mapped (currently on 5th map).

Could you also prove/disprove this theory please - if a car already has a remap from let's say DMS and then you were asked to put one of your maps on the car, could it be that your map may not reach it's potential because ideally it should overlay the standard map and not an already remapped car? Another way of looking at it would be would you put the remapped car back to a standard map and then put your remap on to get the best results? Does this make sense?

I understand what you are saying but unfortunatly it doesnt quite work like that.

When remapping a car you must always work from the basic code, every ECU has a basic running program and within that basic running program there are different software versions. You cannot apply a different version of software which doesnt match the basic code or the ECU will corrupt, checksum wont verify and the car wont start.

It doesnt matter if the ECU is mapped or not, you MUST always work from the original basic code and the corresponding software versionusing the software read from the ECU. Only the dealer can change the basic code and update the software version using the dealer tool, hence why when you take the car in for a service the dealer can wipe the remap by up loading a newer software version. This is why when a remap is wiped we cant load the original tuned map that was on the car before, we have to down load the software from the ECU again and write a complete new map then upload the map to the ECU. There is no chance because the car was remapped by, say DMS that my remap would not reach its full potential simply because we would remove all of DMS's map with our map. Its a complete overlay.


Hope you're still with me .

Originally Posted by Jude1

Hi Simon,

So why does mine rev to near 5000rpm?

Your remap is written by DMS, why does RichardM DMS stop at 4000rpm ?

Why does Carlos DMS stop at 4500rpm and your DMS stop at 5000rpm ?

Why does Ian (hotcoupe) stop at 4300rpm and Tony's top at 4000rpm when they are the same basic code and software version ?

Why does the car on the road pull cleanly to 5000rpm and not on the dyno ?

Why did the runs at Marlowe rolling road using a dyno dynamics look nothing like the plots from SRR when its the same make of dyno ?

One other point i would like to point out is your dyno plot from TCC, look at the IT and AT figures and compare them to SRR plots. SRR has a Intake temp and Ambient temp difference of 1 degree. The TCC plots has a difference of 8 degrees. The way the dyno dynamics machine works is if this intake temp is high the dyno software will make a adjustment for the high intake temp. It adds a percentage to the flywheel figure, the higher the intake temp the higher the percentage added.

Anyone remember the E60 M5 at the SRR day, the car pulled below stock, from memory around 480bhp. The SAME car ran at a different garage but the same make of machine. The plots below:



Same car, same make of dyno totally different results. Some 80bhp difference between the two runs. Note the difference between the air intake temp and ambient temp, this is how much a dyno dynamics dyno will add correction if the air intake temp value is incorrect, hence why a rolling road is only as good as the operator.

[Jude1]

Originally Posted by e-maps

I understand what you are saying but unfortunatly it doesnt quite work like that.

When remapping a car you must always work from the basic code, every ECU has a basic running program and within that basic running program there are different software versions. You cannot apply a different version of software which doesnt match the basic code or the ECU will corrupt, checksum wont verify and the car wont start.

It doesnt matter if the ECU is mapped or not, you MUST always work from the original basic code and the corresponding software versionusing the software read from the ECU. Only the dealer can change the basic code and update the software version using the dealer tool, hence why when you take the car in for a service the dealer can wipe the remap by up loading a newer software version. This is why when a remap is wiped we cant load the original tuned map that was on the car before, we have to down load the software from the ECU again and write a complete new map then upload the map to the ECU. There is no chance because the car was remapped by, say DMS that my remap would not reach its full potential simply because we would remove all of DMS's map with our map. Its a complete overlay.


Hope you're still with me .

Hmmmmm... So if you were going to remap an already remapped car you would extract the existing map and then start from scratch? If so then that makes sense. I've been led to believe that some remappers would try and overlay their map over whatever map is currently in the ECU, therefore you would not necessarily reap the real gains of the "new" map than if you were mapping from the base map.

Originally Posted by e-maps

Your remap is written by DMS, why does RichardM DMS stop at 4000rpm ?

Why does Carlos DMS stop at 4500rpm and your DMS stop at 5000rpm ?

Why does Ian (hotcoupe) stop at 4300rpm and Tony's top at 4000rpm when they are the same basic code and software version ?

Why does the car on the road pull cleanly to 5000rpm and not on the dyno ?

Why did the runs at Marlowe rolling road using a dyno dynamics look nothing like the plots from SRR when its the same make of dyno ?

I still believe that this is down to the respective map on the car or the dyno operator lifting his foot early?

Originally Posted by e-maps

One other point i would like to point out is your dyno plot from TCC, look at the IT and AT figures and compare them to SRR plots. SRR has a Intake temp and Ambient temp difference of 1 degree. The TCC plots has a difference of 8 degrees. The way the dyno dynamics machine works is if this intake temp is high the dyno software will make a adjustment for the high intake temp. It adds a percentage to the flywheel figure, the higher the intake temp the higher the percentage added.

Agree with your theory here but the percentage correction will not distort the graph to the degree it has (from a torque perspective) and it doesn't explain why the bhp is exactly where it should be. I've been running various cars on these rollers for a number of years and they correspond closely with Charlies at SRR (Charlie will verify this), the car was on its fifth run so not suprising that it was such a differential.

Originally Posted by e-maps

Anyone remember the E60 M5 at the SRR day, the car pulled below stock, from memory around 480bhp. The SAME car ran at a different garage but the same make of machine. The plots below:



Same car, same make of dyno totally different results. Some 80bhp difference between the two runs. Note the difference between the air intake temp and ambient temp, this is how much a dyno dynamics dyno will add correction if the air intake temp value is incorrect, hence why a rolling road is only as good as the operator.

As I mentioned earlier in order to skew the results by 20% you've had to seriously fudge the IT figure (55!!!), however the differential I have is only 8 degs so like I said earlier this is no where near enough to skew the torque figure from 420lb/ft in the other graphs to 490lb/ft (it would need to be set at 50ish?), also why is the bhp figure about right? This is what I don't understand. I did similar tests on running cars in different gears on the same RR and you get the same effect.....what would a 335d give if ran in 3rd...higher figures? Was the M5 ran in the same gear at both RR's?

Jules.

[Serjames]

surely HP is calculated as a measure of torque at a certain RPM ?

Horsepower = (Torque * RPM) / 5252

?


So something is wrong if the HP remains the same but the torque changes over the same RPM ?

SJ

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by Serjames

surely HP is calculated as a measure of torque at a certain RPM ?

Horsepower = (Torque * RPM) / 5252

?


So something is wrong if the HP remains the same but the torque changes over the same RPM ?

SJ

diesel dont rev to 5200 mate!!

So i have not read the above posts in detail yet, just skimmed but whats the conclusion with the 335d?

is the temp diff of Jules graph a reason why its torque is so high or not?!

ALso the M5 one with 560bhp was a f**k up by the operator, charlies graph for it is accurate!

[Jude1]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

diesel dont rev to 5200 mate!!

So i have not read the above posts in detail yet, just skimmed but whats the conclusion with the 335d?

is the temp diff of Jules graph a reason why its torque is so high or not?!

ALso the M5 one with 560bhp was a f**k up by the operator, charlies graph for it is accurate!

If the temp diff was the reason for the torque being so high then the bhp would have been affected also, but it hasn't been, that is unless we are going to say that the bhp at the wheels is really only about 225bhp on my remapped car.......which I defintely know it isn't.

[dxb335d]

I dont know Jules im just geustimating.

That email hasnt arrived yet dude

I didnt realise there would be such a variation between them, there all just normal maps. Not super dooper live maps.

That shires one must be phoenominal compared to ours for instance!

[Jude1]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

I dont know Jules im just geustimating.

That email hasnt arrived yet dude

I didnt realise there would be such a variation between them, there all just normal maps. Not super dooper live maps.

That shires one must be phoenominal compared to ours for instance!

I know what you are saying, but the old addage about all being on the same RR at the same times does stack up to a degree.

Regardless of the theory of putting the same map on various 335d's and them all being the same for me this doesn't ring true. As good as the engines are at being almost identical other variables will impact on output....variables such as RR, fuel used, airflow restrictions, wheel size, tyre type (resistance on rollers) etc etc.

The Shires graph looks very impressive and it may prove to be the Daddy, but ideally it needs to be on the same RR.

[Serjames]

it's not a rev Carlos it's the formula that is used to calculate HP from Torque.

Horsepower = (Torque * RPM) divided by 5252

[kend]

Originally Posted by Serjames

it's not a rev Carlos it's the formula that is used to calculate HP from Torque.

Horsepower = (Torque * RPM) divided by 5252

You can look at a print out out on a petrol engine and check that the lines cross at 5252 rpm if they don't it is crook. With Diesels that does not exist, give it a couple of years until the revs reach that point and then look at the graphs!