[Ant Man]

In most areas of England, Esso Synergy Supreme is still ethanol free and it's 99 RON. The full details are on their website. My M3 runs smoother with it compared other super unleaded fuels.

[Phil325i]

Originally Posted by Ant Man

In most areas of England, Esso Synergy Supreme is still ethanol free and it's 99 RON. The full details are on their website. My M3 runs smoother with it compared other super unleaded fuels.

Yes, I found that to be good stuff. Not sure it can be ethanol free though, as all petrol has had to contain 5% for some years...

[therealdb1]

Originally Posted by Phil325i

Yes, I found that to be good stuff. Not sure it can be ethanol free though, as all petrol has had to contain 5% for some years...

Not entirely true. Most unleaded has been E5 for years agreed, but it was not a legal requirement since E5 meant it could contain "up to 5% ethanol". Nothing to stop the manufacturer putting in 1%, 2% or even zero as Esso did. There are probably HMRC reasons for doing it or maybe marketing reasons with oil companies claiming "greener" fuel by reducing the heavier hydrocarbons and replacing them with alcohol.

According to Esso, Synergy Supreme is currently ethanol free unless you buy it in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England or Scotland due to "technical supply issues" which may mean it's not actually the same stuff they are selling in those areas.

They are obliged, however, to label the pumps up to "E5" so its ethanol free days are probably numbered. Enjoy it while you can!

[Saif2018]

Originally Posted by therealdb1

What makes you believe higher ethanol content is more desirable?

It's more desirable if you have a N54 135i/335i etc because you can map it for more power. 5% is barely gonna make any difference in power though, you'd need something like E30 with a OTS or Custom map to make a significant difference

[Saif2018]

Originally Posted by therealdb1

Perhaps they live in an alternative universe where the laws of chemistry do not apply! Or perhaps South America where they run engines on alcohol anyway?

The energy content of 95 RON petrol is around 44 MJ/kg whereas ethanol is about 23 MJ/kg.

So take out some of the higher energy stuff and replace it with lower energy stuff doesn't give you more power.

Even the RAC state that fuel consumption increases by about 3% when you switch from E5 to E10 petrol so you need to use more petrol to get the same power. That is only an increase in consumption not power.

You're not thinking of nitro-methane, are you?

Ethanol is less energy dense but it has higher Octane than gasoline/petrol, that's why it can produce more power. With E30, E40, E50 etc

If you ever ran them on a Turbo charged tuned car you'd immediately be able to tell the difference.

[Thermobaric]

Has anyone noticed a difference in MPG after moving from E5 to E10?

I don't really do a fixed amount of driving each week so it's been difficult for me to keep track. I'm just wondering if I should pay the extra to get E5 if it will give me better MPG. I've heard drops of 7% in MPG for some people.

[Saif2018]

Originally Posted by Thermobaric

Has anyone noticed a difference in MPG after moving from E5 to E10?

I don't really do a fixed amount of driving each week so it's been difficult for me to keep track. I'm just wondering if I should pay the extra to get E5 if it will give me better MPG. I've heard drops of 7% in MPG for some people.

I have a E90 335i and noticed No difference, if there is any its so miniscule, its not worth mentioning.

If you have a Turbo tuned car such as 335i, then definitely worth getting V Power which is E5

Otherwise just run the E10

[therealdb1]

Originally Posted by Saif2018

Ethanol is less energy dense but it has higher Octane than gasoline/petrol

Are you sure? Ethanol is an alcohol with 2 carbon atoms and octane is a saturated hydrocarbon chain with 8 carbon atoms. There is no octane in ethanol!

E10 petrol has an octane number of 95 while the E5 that you can still buy is 97 or more especially if you can get the Esso stuff.

The sole purpose of E10 is to reduce carbon emissions over the old E5.

There is little point in discussing higher ethanol content since these are specialist fuels which are not available to everyone and they will not run particularly well without serious modifications to the engine and its electronics. I suspect the reason highly tuned engines like ethanol is because of the knock characteristic which allows you to advance the timing much further than you can with petrol. You still get less energy per quantity which means you need more of it. You don't get something for nothing!

Thinking that E10 is a good thing from a power point of view is plain wrong. It is 95 RON!

It is accepted by industry and the motoring organisations that E10 is around 3% less efficient i.e fewer mpg than the outgoing E5. TBH in the real world our mpg varies by so much depending upon traffic, weather, the type of driving, etc. it will probably not be noticeable but it has been tested and there is a difference noticeable or not.

I'll say it again, if you have invested in a 335i why bother with E10? BMW state 95 RON is the minimum you should use but recommend higher RON fuels.

[Saif2018]

Originally Posted by therealdb1

Are you sure? Ethanol is an alcohol with 2 carbon atoms and octane is a saturated hydrocarbon chain with 8 carbon atoms. There is no octane in ethanol!

E10 petrol has an octane number of 95 while the E5 that you can still buy is 97 or more especially if you can get the Esso stuff.

The sole purpose of E10 is to reduce carbon emissions over the old E5.

There is little point in discussing higher ethanol content since these are specialist fuels which are not available to everyone and they will not run particularly well without serious modifications to the engine and its electronics. I suspect the reason highly tuned engines like ethanol is because of the knock characteristic which allows you to advance the timing much further than you can with petrol. You still get less energy per quantity which means you need more of it. You don't get something for nothing!

Thinking that E10 is a good thing from a power point of view is plain wrong. It is 95 RON!

It is accepted by industry and the motoring organisations that E10 is around 3% less efficient i.e fewer mpg than the outgoing E5. TBH in the real world our mpg varies by so much depending upon traffic, weather, the type of driving, etc. it will probably not be noticeable but it has been tested and there is a difference noticeable or not.

I'll say it again, if you have invested in a 335i why bother with E10? BMW state 95 RON is the minimum you should use but recommend higher RON fuels.

I think you misunderstood me mate, I'm not using E10, nor am I telling anyone to do so.

5% extra Ethanol is hardly going to make any performance difference as stated previously. E10 will give virtually zero benefits to performance, especially with the crap 95ron fuel.

If you added E30, E40, E50 etc (30%%, 40%, 50%) that would make any significant difference on Turbo car like N54.

Ask any N54 or turbo tuner. I have MHD and E40 map makes the most power and torque, this is a fact that nobody disagrees on.

Have a read through this as well...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

Typical Octane rating of E85 is 100-105 octane, and its available to buy in barrels.

https://www.demon-tweeks.com/uk/vp-r...06-ron-vprc85/

With a flex fuel sensor installed, you can mix it with 93oct Shell V power and not worry about calculating percentage.

Shell V power which 99ron is 93 Octane.

[therealdb1]

Originally Posted by Saif2018

I think you misunderstood me mate

I don't think I have to be honest.

Adding more ethanol CANNOT give you more power from the engines that most of us have. It is a physical impossibility, in this universe at least!

What the ethanol does is allow you to tune an engine further than you can using "straight" petrol so that you can burn more fuel more quickly which is where the power figures are coming from. So effectively you are not comparing like with like.

Put E85 in a regular 335i and it will probably struggle to run at all but if you spend a fortune modifying it, spend another fortune on LPFP otherwise it won't start, and a HPFP otherwise you will get fuel starvation, another fortune on regular rebuilds because it is tuned to within an inch of being a full race engine, and a final fortune on barrels and barrels of fuel because you will get through it that quickly, I can understand how you get some dizzy bhp figures on a dyno but for those of us that live in the real world it ain't very practical, is it?

If we wanted to go greener perhaps what we should be doing is converting all of our cars to run on methanol (which burns even cleaner than ethanol) and have done with it scrapping the stupid idea of diluting proper petrol with ethanol.

[Saif2018]

Originally Posted by therealdb1

I don't think I have to be honest.

Adding more ethanol CANNOT give you more power from the engines that most of us have. It is a physical impossibility, in this universe at least!

What the ethanol does is allow you to tune an engine further than you can using "straight" petrol so that you can burn more fuel more quickly which is where the power figures are coming from. So effectively you are not comparing like with like.

Put E85 in a regular 335i and it will probably struggle to run at all but if you spend a fortune modifying it, spend another fortune on LPFP otherwise it won't start, and a HPFP otherwise you will get fuel starvation, another fortune on regular rebuilds because it is tuned to within an inch of being a full race engine, and a final fortune on barrels and barrels of fuel because you will get through it that quickly, I can understand how you get some dizzy bhp figures on a dyno but for those of us that live in the real world it ain't very practical, is it?

If we wanted to go greener perhaps what we should be doing is converting all of our cars to run on methanol (which burns even cleaner than ethanol) and have done with it scrapping the stupid idea of diluting proper petrol with ethanol.

Pretty sure I stated the car has to me mapped to take advantage of E85 higher octane level and is beneficial mostly on turbo cars like the N54 ones. It does not look like you know much about N54's and just arguing for time sake of it.

I wasn't talking about E10 crap fuel that most drivers use, has almost zero performance benefits and is clearly for emissions. Im referring specifically to tuned turbo vehicles such as 335i, E85. The stock HPFP and stock LPFP can typically handle upto E30 maps. Higher Ethanol content doesn't require huge amount of money spent on LPFP, ~ £200-300. You don't need to go port injection unless you're going for big power with hybrid turbos.

Face-palm, Go on the N54 modified section and ask them how many of them had to do rebuilds because they ran E85, clearly modified cars is not for you.

[therealdb1]

I'm not trying to argue with you, mate!

All I am saying is the power gains are coming from the tuning and not the ethanol.

Ethanol just happens to be a more suitable fuel for highly tuned engines because of its weaker burn characteristics.

Next month when you pour brandy over your Christmas pudding and set light to it that is ethanol burning. Hardly raging horsepower!

I don't suggest doing the same with petrol as it will ruin your pudding but I'm sure you have seen a petrol fire, it is much more intense.

I'll leave it at that now.

[Saif2018]

Originally Posted by therealdb1

I'm not trying to argue with you, mate!

All I am saying is the power gains are coming from the tuning and not the ethanol.

Ethanol just happens to be a more suitable fuel for highly tuned engines because of its weaker burn characteristics.

Next month when you pour brandy over your Christmas pudding and set light to it that is ethanol burning. Hardly raging horsepower!

I don't suggest doing the same with petrol as it will ruin your pudding but I'm sure you have seen a petrol fire, it is much more intense.

I'll leave it at that now.

Well that opinion of yours is clearly wrong. Power gains from tuning is possible because of Ethanols higher octane level.

Anyone who runs E85 maps knows that.

You have no idea what your talking about, it's known that higher octane fuel reduces knock, timing corrections and allows more aggressive mapping for greater power.

Here, read through this...

https://www.garrettmotion.com/news/n...iata-gtx2867r/

I don't use Ethanol because of the fact that it isn't available at pumps and because it tanks fuel consumption, but there's no denying it has power/torque and even cooling, reduced knock benefits for the engine