[ilicboris]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

5"?

Yeah it's the 5".

[bigdnno98]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

+1

I am running the Evolution Racewerks intercooler on my 335 noe and like the ETS 7" it is a quality piece worth every dollar

Note: When i got the ETS 7", i was not a vendor at the time

Interesting. I think I'm going to invest in one of these.

[NoSlow5oh]

Originally Posted by bNks334

Thanks, Jeff.

If you ask me, it's pretty easy to see from those logs that cars seeing similar loads, at similar ambient temps, are all seeing similar IAT's while running intercooler with similar total surface area. Quality and brand aside, the results all come out to be the same in the real world.

Not much data being presented in this thread AT ALL. It's just a bunch of vendors recommending the flavor of the month intercooler (no offense).

As stated earlier, you seem to be trying to compare apples to oranges and nothing can be considered conclusive in your post, unfortunately, because I do respect the amount of time you spent trying to state your case.

I have one of the intercoolers you posted about, yet my results are completely different. I drove 45 minutes in city traffic to get dynoed. Car soaked for about 30 minutes to get hooked up on the rollers and rpm pickup hooked up. All dude had was a dinky little fan for the front. Temp was about 80* or higher. I'm only running an FMIC and e30 tune, but I'm hitting 21psi, 195 load, full 2000-6200rpms in 4th gear - a long pull and much hotter than a simple 3rd gear. I'm also pushing 3+ psi more at the higher end than most. How much did my IATs rise at the end of 4th?

0 degrees

http://datazap.me/u/noslow5oh/dyno-r...0&data=4-16-22

I then did a quick 3 minute tune change and ran a 16psi 93 octane tune in 4th. How much did it change?

None - it was the same 90* at the end of 4th on the second pull as it was for the beginning of the pull on my first run. Both pulls you can see it drop to 87* in the middle rpms.

http://datazap.me/u/noslow5oh/dyno-runs?log=1&data=4-22

So, what did we learn? My intercooler worked great at the time. But, that doesn't mean we can compare temp increases to any other log by another car with different mods on a different day. There are too many variables to account for. As you said, ANYTHING will be much better than stock probably. It should also be said, though, that there are some quality units being made that are better, at a higher cost.

[RSL]

One thing that does have to be considered for rise though is time under load. 4th gear pull on the dyno is a substantially shorter time than 3rd on the street unless you're on an eddy current or something putting equivalent resistance on it. You generally never have the air flow across the FMIC on a dyno that you do on the street, but if it takes 1/2 as long to spin the tach to 6-7k, regardless of gear, it's even less of a comparable condition for IAT rise than different cars in different environments on the road.

No reason to really expect similarly sized/constructed/fin pack density/stagger cores to show huge differences up to a point, but you'd need to know what those differences are core to core. That said, for some of the starting and rise temps logged for "65F" ambient temps, I'd say even some well-regarded cores seem pretty mediocre from logs in this thread LOL

One thing we can all agree on though, any aftermarket FMIC is going to be better than stock. The questions are: how much better at doing what and will it suit your goals.

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by NoSlow5oh

As stated earlier, you seem to be trying to compare apples to oranges and nothing can be considered conclusive in your post, unfortunately, because I do respect the amount of time you spent trying to state your case.

I have one of the intercoolers you posted about, yet my results are completely different. I drove 45 minutes in city traffic to get dynoed. Car soaked for about 30 minutes to get hooked up on the rollers and rpm pickup hooked up. All dude had was a dinky little fan for the front. Temp was about 80* or higher. I'm only running an FMIC and e30 tune, but I'm hitting 21psi, 195 load, full 2000-6200rpms in 4th gear - a long pull and much hotter than a simple 3rd gear. I'm also pushing 3+ psi more at the higher end than most. How much did my IATs rise at the end of 4th?

0 degrees

http://datazap.me/u/noslow5oh/dyno-r...0&data=4-16-22

I then did a quick 3 minute tune change and ran a 16psi 93 octane tune in 4th. How much did it change?

None - it was the same 90* at the end of 4th on the second pull as it was for the beginning of the pull on my first run. Both pulls you can see it drop to 87* in the middle rpms.

http://datazap.me/u/noslow5oh/dyno-runs?log=1&data=4-22

So, what did we learn? My intercooler worked great at the time. But, that doesn't mean we can compare temp increases to any other log by another car with different mods on a different day. There are too many variables to account for. As you said, ANYTHING will be much better than stock probably. It should also be said, though, that there are some quality units being made that are better, at a higher cost.

Exactly what RSL stated, it is you comparing apple to oranges. I didn't look at singular 4th gear pulls. It's hard to do a full 4th gear pull on the street (120+ mph). Not a single log I looked at were done on a dyno either (simulated load).

I put time into finding COMPORABLE data. It's not perfect, but what I collected shows that just about all the 5" offerings perform about damn near the same.

Care to share which intercooler you have? Why post a log with such amazing numbers if you don't care to even tell us what brand and size cooler you have?

I found ETS to be the best at IAT suppression... The ETS core appears to be very efficient at shedding heat. This also comes at a cost of increased pressure drop (hence your higher PSI needed to hit the same target load). However, on multi-gear pulls the ETS intercooler eventually hits it's thermal capacity and the results end up almost dead even with the competition. Who cars about single gear pulls anyway?

7" offerings obviously largely outperformed 5" offerings, but 7" intercoolers also lead to more pressure drop and WEIGHT. People who have a 1 track mind and only look at dyno numbers don't seem to realize that that ARE tradeoffs to adding a larger hunk of aluminum to your car. No one tracking or auto-crossing a car wants an extra 10lbs hanging off their front bumper if they can avoid it.

With all that being said, it's fantastic that you post an actual log! You are what, like the 2nd person to do so in 12 pages?

Now JB4 cars might be a little different... They target BOOST which means you will see more gains by decreasing IAT's. Flash tuned cars target LOAD, which means you're DME very intelligently runs different parameters such as timing and boost to continue to hit target load whether IAT's are 90f or 150f.

[Johndock23]

Which FMIC has the best fitment? Are there any where you don't have to cut the bumper?

[peterparker]

AD Engineering 7.5in Stepped IC
Roc Euro intake
PE Exhaust, MHD Stage 1 + IC tune
6AT Alpina
70-75f outside
2 Month old gas.


Just warming up...
http://www.datazap.me/u/ivtecc/no-mi...zoom=1173-1377

Car is fulled warmed up. Pull from a dead stop on a red light.
http://www.datazap.me/u/ivtecc/no-mi...zoom=2420-2736

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by peterparker

AD Engineering 7.5in Stepped IC
Roc Euro intake
PE Exhaust, MHD Stage 1 + IC tune
6AT Alpina
70-75f outside
2 Month old gas.


Just warming up...
http://www.datazap.me/u/ivtecc/no-mi...zoom=1173-1377

Car is fulled warmed up. Pull from a dead stop on a red light.
http://www.datazap.me/u/ivtecc/no-mi...zoom=2420-2736

At first glance, it looks like a 7.5" can better handle the extra heat produced from pushing the stock turbo. However, comparing your results to the 5" units that I collected is difficult.

It looks like your cruising IAT's (roughly 100f @ 70-75 ambient) are no different than a 5" intercooler. Also, it looks like this is more of a 3-4 pull. You didn't hit WOT in 2nd until after peak power is achieved and you shifted early. With my 5" core, IAT's don't start to rise until 5300+ rpms, which is where the turbo starts to blow hot air. You are shifting in 2nd at 5500rpms, 3rd at 5800, and then ending 4th at 5100 rpms. So, you basically stayed out of the range where heat really starts to build. In general, you are also tuned less aggressively.

Would you mind posting a log of you wringing it out 'till redline? I'd like to know, for my own purposes, how much I have to gain by moving to a 7" intercooler. Maybe stick to a 3rd-4th gear pull to keep things more comparable? Thanks.

[peterparker]

Originally Posted by bNks334

Would you mind posting a log of you wringing it out 'till redline? I'd like to know, for my own purposes, how much I have to gain by moving to a 7" intercooler. Maybe stick to a 3rd-4th gear pull to keep things more comparable? Thanks.

Of course, I'll do some this weekend. & thanks for looking at my map

Car is still in test mode, bumper off and everything! So I was trying to take it easy.

I just installed a AT Cooler and wanted to make sure that nothing crazy happens... But everything looks good and there's no more leaks. Nor misfires & stumbles.

After I flashed to the intercooler map I started misfiring. Luckily I had a set of Eldor coil packs sitting around. And that seemed to fixed the stumbles.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Johndock23

Which FMIC has the best fitment? Are there any where you don't have to cut the bumper?

Wagner EVO 1 Performance or Competition
ETS 5"
Mishimoto


All options above will not require bumper trimming

[Johndock23]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Wagner EVO 1 Performance or Competition
ETS 5"
Mishimoto


All options above will not require bumper trimming

Thank you, and out of those 3, which one would you recommend with a stage 1+ OTS MHD map? Peak HP is NOT my goal, just efficiency and functionality of cooling for the IC

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Johndock23

Thank you, and out of those 3, which one would you recommend with a stage 1+ OTS MHD map? Peak HP is NOT my goal, just efficiency and functionality of cooling for the IC

I would do either ETS 5" or Wagner
Both are quality products, i like the Wagner better because it is stepped core

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by peterparker

Of course, I'll do some this weekend. & thanks for looking at my map

Car is still in test mode, bumper off and everything! So I was trying to take it easy.

I just installed a AT Cooler and wanted to make sure that nothing crazy happens... But everything looks good and there's no more leaks. Nor misfires & stumbles.

After I flashed to the intercooler map I started misfiring. Luckily I had a set of Eldor coil packs sitting around. And that seemed to fixed the stumbles.

~75 ambient would be great.

Car looks strong! WGDC is fairly low for 16psi leaving lots of overhead. Low IAT's help with that. Looks like there is plenty of overhead to push things harder if you really wanted to.

I would have the tuner look into your 3-4 shift. Looks like you overshot requested load on both pulls. The DME responded by closing the throttle a bit and pulling timing (look at cyl 1&4). That should be able to be smoothed out I'd think?

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by RSL

That said, for some of the starting and rise temps logged for "65F" ambient temps, I'd say even some well-regarded cores seem pretty mediocre from logs in this thread LOL

I tried to grab logs close to my 76f logs, but that's besides the point.

I think the bottom line is most of the numbers people are posting in here are bs like "It's 90f and I cruise around at 92f all day" yeah... ok.

Most of the vendors are posting skewed data taken at abnormally low temps (ETS did their logs at 50f and still saw temps rise to 91f). ETS also used RPM's to showcase the rise in temp for STOCK, but then they switch to "MPH" to showcase their gains over stock. So, we have no idea if they short shifted the car running their intercooler to exaggerate the results.

Then people come in here saying they achieve the same at 90f because they took numbers from their 5minute drive to 7-11. Only like 3 people have posted actual, and accurate, logs.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

+1

I am running the Evolution Racewerks intercooler on my 335 noe and like the ETS 7" it is a quality piece worth every dollar

Note: When i got the ETS 7", i was not a vendor at the time

Ah ok. Thanks for the clarification.

Originally Posted by NoSlow5oh

As stated earlier, you seem to be trying to compare apples to oranges and nothing can be considered conclusive in your post, unfortunately, because I do respect the amount of time you spent trying to state your case.

I have one of the intercoolers you posted about, yet my results are completely different. I drove 45 minutes in city traffic to get dynoed. Car soaked for about 30 minutes to get hooked up on the rollers and rpm pickup hooked up. All dude had was a dinky little fan for the front. Temp was about 80* or higher. I'm only running an FMIC and e30 tune, but I'm hitting 21psi, 195 load, full 2000-6200rpms in 4th gear - a long pull and much hotter than a simple 3rd gear. I'm also pushing 3+ psi more at the higher end than most. How much did my IATs rise at the end of 4th?

0 degrees

http://datazap.me/u/noslow5oh/dyno-r...0&data=4-16-22

I then did a quick 3 minute tune change and ran a 16psi 93 octane tune in 4th. How much did it change?

None - it was the same 90* at the end of 4th on the second pull as it was for the beginning of the pull on my first run. Both pulls you can see it drop to 87* in the middle rpms.

http://datazap.me/u/noslow5oh/dyno-runs?log=1&data=4-22

So, what did we learn? My intercooler worked great at the time. But, that doesn't mean we can compare temp increases to any other log by another car with different mods on a different day. There are too many variables to account for. As you said, ANYTHING will be much better than stock probably. It should also be said, though, that there are some quality units being made that are better, at a higher cost.

Bingo

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

Ah ok. Thanks for the clarification.



Bingo

LMAO, still? nothing he is showing is comparable to what I showed. Period.

You tell me I can't compare logs that are all similar and then agree with someone trying to compare a log that is done under different gears/conditions. All the sudden his log gets the pass? Right...

BTW, his oil temp is 214F. If his car was truly hot he'd be above the opening temp of the thermostat.

OH WAIT, look at his datazap account...

http://datazap.me/u/noslow5oh/3rd-e3...0&data=4-16-22

That log is a 3rd gear pull (running an E85 mix which makes things run cooler at the cost of your fuel pump and injectors), it shows his oil is 235 (still pretty cool tbh), 77 ambient, and he's showing 95 rising to 101 @ 6500 rpms. The ARM showed what? 100 rising to 109 @6500 rpms.

Again, getting the conditions closer and all the sudden his ETS unit is performing only marginally better than the "cheap Chinese knockoff". Look at his IAT's rapidly increase upon the gear change too. If he rode out 4th, he'd probably be at the same damn numbers as every other log I posted.

I do agree ETS is a high quality unit that appears to have the best IAT suppression abilities of the bunch.

Upselling people on high quality intercooler's isn't what bothers me it's the flat out making shit up that does. That and vendors bashing a company, without basis, that has no representation here.

[Gohan335i7]

Don't you get what you pay for ? I always thought of that as a kind of rule , especially when it came to parts or quality of parts for my 335i or any high performance vehicle for that matter..

[bigdnno98]

Originally Posted by Gohan335i7

Don't you get what you pay for ? I always thought of that as a kind of rule , especially when it came to parts or quality of parts for my 335i or any high performance vehicle for that matter..

No. Just because something is more expensive doesn't make it better. For example Dinan stuff..... And just because something is cheaper doesn't mean it's lesser quality. For example down pipes. They're just pipes. AR DPs are nearly twice as expensive as others. Are they twice as good? No. Do some people prefer to pay for stuff that's built in the US and fitment is perfect 99% of the time? Sure. That doesn't make them better performing. Real world results decide what is better and what isn't.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by bigdnno98

No. Just because something is more expensive doesn't make it better. For example Dinan stuff..... And just because something is cheaper doesn't mean it's lesser quality. For example down pipes. They're just pipes. AR DPs are nearly twice as expensive as others. Are they twice as good? No. Do some people prefer to pay for stuff that's built in the US and fitment is perfect 99% of the time? Sure. That doesn't make them better performing. Real world results decide what is better and what isn't.

I agree with that statement

That being said in this case here we do not have any objective test to compare any of the intercoolers that were mentioned
Comparing logs from different days, different boost on different cars is like comparing 2 dynos taken with no baseline on different dynojets

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by bNks334

LMAO, still? nothing he is showing is comparable to what I showed. Period.

You tell me I can't compare logs that are all similar and then agree with someone trying to compare a log that is done under different gears/conditions. All the sudden his log gets the pass? Right...

BTW, his oil temp is 214F. If his car was truly hot he'd be above the opening temp of the thermostat.

OH WAIT, look at his datazap account...

http://datazap.me/u/noslow5oh/3rd-e3...0&data=4-16-22

That log is a 3rd gear pull (running an E85 mix which makes things run cooler at the cost of your fuel pump and injectors), it shows his oil is 235 (still pretty cool tbh), 77 ambient, and he's showing 95 rising to 101 @ 6500 rpms. The ARM showed what? 100 rising to 109 @6500 rpms.

Again, getting the conditions closer and all the sudden his ETS unit is performing only marginally better than the cheap Chinese knockoff. Look at his IAT's rapidly increase upon the gear change too. If he rode out 4th, he'd probably be at the same damn numbers as every other log I posted.

I do agree ETS is a high quality unit that appears to have the best IAT suppression abilities of the bunch.

Upselling people on high quality intercooler's isn't what bothers me it's the flat out making shit up that does. That and vendors bashing a company, without basis, that has no representation here.

I was actually only agreeing with this remark "As stated earlier, you seem to be trying to compare apples to oranges and nothing can be considered conclusive in your post, unfortunately, because I do respect the amount of time you spent trying to state your case."


In the case of apples and oranges, you seemed to do it pretty well as the only thing similar with your comparisons was the vehicle had seats and steering wheel, everything else was different entirely. LOL

When you compare different intercoolers, under the same conditions EVERYWHERE ELSE, then we'd be talking facts and apples to apples.

Agreeing with ETS being high quality with the best IAT supression, then being bothered by vendors up-selling people on higher quality intercoolers bothers you.

This is starting to make a lot of sense...

I hope your not trying to "call me out" when you remark "VENDORS" by the way. I'm the most unbiased person here. I've already said if the cut rate ebay intercooler works for you, keep using it, however, until you compare it to something else yourself, you're only as good as the information you provide.

It's like being with one girl and saying shes the best thing since sliced bread, kind of hard to take your word for it...

Also, with your regards to your IAT going up from 100-109. Although mentioned, you seem to pass over the fact that the Ambient was 77, so you started ~25 degrees over ambient before you even made the pull, not exactly impressive.

Had your Ambient and start of the pull have been within 10 or less like good/high quality intercoolers, then that would be something to talk about.

Grabbing random logs off datazap never tells the whole story, I feel like I'm just repeating myself now. Different cars, different elevation, different modifications, different octane, different heat soak, etc etc etc

Apples to apples would be same car, same boost, same tune, same road, same heat soak, same conditions EXCEPT for the intercoolers changing...

If you think that doesn't have any merit and won't prove anything, then you've clearly never tried other intercoolers to understand what makes them tick, what makes them work and what makes a low efficiency intercooler different from a high quality and high efficiency one.

When that is done, then we'll see the true colors of each intercooler at hand.

For the record, I agree there are some $1000 intercoolers not worthy of their price tag. I for one know which intercoolers they are and which ones are not worthy of their cost. There is such thing as mark up for specific brands simply because of their brand name, ETS is not one of them as you guys can already tell and I hate to keep plugging at ETS, I actually make more money on other brands so it's not even about that. You'll find them fairly priced for what they offer though if you were looking for my actual sales pitch.

Although I'd love to continue arguing, I do have actual customers to attend to.

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

Also, with your regards to your IAT going up from 100-109. Although mentioned, you seem to pass over the fact that the Ambient was 77, so you started ~25 degrees over ambient before you even made the pull, not exactly impressive.

Are you kidding me? This is exactly why I am still taking my time to respond here. This is the double standard that keeps presenting itself.

A log of an ETS 5" @ 77f ambient showing a starting temp of 95f is ignored, but my 5" ARM @ 76f ambient showing 99.5f starting temp is BAD?. My oil is way hotter than 235f btw because my car is actually, you know, HOT when I did the log. I don't see you telling NoSlow5oh that his 5" ETS intercooler is bad. Maybe you should just stop selling 5" intercoolers altogether?

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

Had your Ambient and start of the pull have been within 10 or less like good/high quality intercoolers, then that would be something to talk about.

Re-read the things you are typing. Please. Then go back and re-read everything I have presented. Show me 1 "good/high quality" 5" intercooler running 10f or less over ambient (@77f). Everything I have seen says NONE OF THEM DO.

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

Grabbing random logs off datazap never tells the whole story, I feel like I'm just repeating myself now. Different cars, different elevation, different modifications, different octane, different heat soak, etc etc etc

That is exactly why I am finding logs that show comparable DATA. You can keep making this blanket statement all you want, but I have yet to see you provide any specific reason why the logs I am posting are incomparable. Any difference in the mods/weather conditions will show such a marginal difference in IAT's it's a moot point to keep bringing up.

I don't see a single vendors saying, "oh hey by the way these gains will vary significantly with as small as a 2f degree deviation or 100ft elevation from car to car." They don't need to say that because it's just not true.

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

Apples to apples would be same car, same boost, same tune, same road, same heat soak, same conditions EXCEPT for the intercoolers changing...

If you think that doesn't have any merit and won't prove anything, then you've clearly never tried other intercoolers to understand what makes them tick, what makes them work and what makes a low efficiency intercooler different from a high quality and high efficiency one.

Yeah, in a perfect world I would do absolutely that. To say what I have done isn't an accurate approximation of real world performance is BS.

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

I hope your not trying to "call me out" when you remark "VENDORS" by the way. I'm the most unbiased person here. I've already said if the cut rate ebay intercooler works for you, keep using it, however, until you compare it to something else yourself, you're only as good as the information you provide.

I am not making this personal toward anyone. But, do you hear yourself?

I've already said if the cut rate ebay intercooler works for you

... Yeah you're opinion isn't biased at all. Don't forget, ARM being 25f over ambient is bad but ETS being 22f over ambient is OK.

People can read and interpret the data for themselves. Just remember, not a single vendor in this thread has presented any real quantifiable data to support anything they've said. All they've done is try to discredit an attempt to put some numbers behind all those dollars you're spending.

[NoSlow5oh]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

I was actually only agreeing with this remark "As stated earlier, you seem to be trying to compare apples to oranges and nothing can be considered conclusive in your post, unfortunately, because I do respect the amount of time you spent trying to state your case."


In the case of apples and oranges, you seemed to do it pretty well as the only thing similar with your comparisons was the vehicle had seats and steering wheel, everything else was different entirely. LOL

When you compare different intercoolers, under the same conditions EVERYWHERE ELSE, then we'd be talking facts and apples to apples.

Agreeing with ETS being high quality with the best IAT supression, then being bothered by vendors up-selling people on higher quality intercoolers bothers you.

This is starting to make a lot of sense...

I hope your not trying to "call me out" when you remark "VENDORS" by the way. I'm the most unbiased person here. I've already said if the cut rate ebay intercooler works for you, keep using it, however, until you compare it to something else yourself, you're only as good as the information you provide.

It's like being with one girl and saying shes the best thing since sliced bread, kind of hard to take your word for it...

Also, with your regards to your IAT going up from 100-109. Although mentioned, you seem to pass over the fact that the Ambient was 77, so you started ~25 degrees over ambient before you even made the pull, not exactly impressive.

Had your Ambient and start of the pull have been within 10 or less like good/high quality intercoolers, then that would be something to talk about.

Grabbing random logs off datazap never tells the whole story, I feel like I'm just repeating myself now. Different cars, different elevation, different modifications, different octane, different heat soak, etc etc etc

Apples to apples would be same car, same boost, same tune, same road, same heat soak, same conditions EXCEPT for the intercoolers changing...

If you think that doesn't have any merit and won't prove anything, then you've clearly never tried other intercoolers to understand what makes them tick, what makes them work and what makes a low efficiency intercooler different from a high quality and high efficiency one.

When that is done, then we'll see the true colors of each intercooler at hand.

For the record, I agree there are some $1000 intercoolers not worthy of their price tag. I for one know which intercoolers they are and which ones are not worthy of their cost. There is such thing as mark up for specific brands simply because of their brand name, ETS is not one of them as you guys can already tell and I hate to keep plugging at ETS, I actually make more money on other brands so it's not even about that. You'll find them fairly priced for what they offer though if you were looking for my actual sales pitch.

Although I'd love to continue arguing, I do have actual customers to attend to.

Bingo

bNks334 - you just can't see the forest from the trees, can you?