[topfuel67]

Loosening the tensioner allowed the cams to line up for the tool and actually use the correct counter holding tool. I found a bmw document online that said not to use the cam locking tool for the bolt removal. I'm glad I didn't as those were under serious torque.

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

Originally Posted by topfuel67

Loosening the tensioner allowed the cams to line up for the tool and actually use the correct counter holding tool. I found a bmw document online that said not to use the cam locking tool for the bolt removal. I'm glad I didn't as those were under serious torque.

Nice. FYI that blue plate isn't needed for removal though just install but no harm done.

But wow I'm surprised you found a document saying that, the screenshot I put earlier is from ISTA directly and says to lock the cams for bolt removal.

[topfuel67]

The document lists all the special tools, not sure if these are the actual bmw tools or an aftermarket company. The order for disassembly they list is:
-Lock Camshafts with tool "11-4-280" (do not use this tool as a counter holding)
-Remove both camshaft gears (use counter hold)
-Install tool "11-5-200" at crankshaft
-Install counter holding tool "11-9-280"
-Remove crank bolt

These instructions are for removing the timing chain, but this part goes over the removal of the camshaft gears and said not to use just the cam locking tool. It was confusing that the instructions said to use the counter hold to remove the camshaft gears before giving instructions to install them. That plus the fact I didn't have the counter holder (the tool that bolts to the crankshaft hub) referenced there, I just used the blue one I had in the kit. I am being really cautious on this car. I have had to redo stuff or dig deeper on so many things I'm losing my sanity.
I got as far as removing, cleaning and resealing the intake cam. I got the exhaust one off and that was it. Both sides are metal seals. The intake side was grooved deeper than the exhaust.
I do appreciate the help. I won't be able to wok on her again until Monday. I'll post updates when I get her back together.

[topfuel67]

I screwed myself by saying "I really don't want to take off the oil pan." I broke the top off the timing chain guide. Luckily that comes off separately from having to pull the whole timing chain assembly. BUT I then broke the bottom tabs removing it from the other part of the guide. Of course those 2 tabs dropped to the bottom of the pan. SO, do I just do the timing chain now that I have to buy the engine support/lift bar to drop the subframe to get to the pan? Another $400.
I watched some youtube videos on this timing job. Now that I was able to remove the timing chain tensioner I am not sure if that was the correct process to do before installing that cam locking tool and that was the reason for it not lining up. Now I am not convinced the timing was wrong or the chain bad. But I am not confident.

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

Originally Posted by topfuel67

I screwed myself by saying "I really don't want to take off the oil pan." I broke the top off the timing chain guide. Luckily that comes off separately from having to pull the whole timing chain assembly. BUT I then broke the bottom tabs removing it from the other part of the guide. Of course those 2 tabs dropped to the bottom of the pan. SO, do I just do the timing chain now that I have to buy the engine support/lift bar to drop the subframe to get to the pan? Another $400.
I watched some youtube videos on this timing job. Now that I was able to remove the timing chain tensioner I am not sure if that was the correct process to do before installing that cam locking tool and that was the reason for it not lining up. Now I am not convinced the timing was wrong or the chain bad. But I am not confident.

Ahh.... I don't know if you should do timing chain. I'm not sure how common it is. But yeah I'd for sure remove those pieces from oil pan.

As for procedure, my ISTA says to remove cam gears before the chain tensioner, so no I don't think so that's why it didn't line up. Also you have to remember if that was the issue, then that means both camshaft would be missaligned, not just one. You should have compared their orientation to the picture I posted there, like the rear of them, that would have be interesting information. I'm pretty sure your engine just wasn't 100% perfectly in time, but not enough to cause actual issues. The only thing that is supposed to not align is the VANOS sensing plates on the camshaft gears (the ones you lock in with the nubs on the blue plate tool, that is only needed to lock them when timing engine). Like it probably doesn't run as good as it should but not enough for codes. But I'm not experienced enough to know if that means you have a stretched chain or not. I recommend you search some more.

Also about your other comment for timing chain job, I don't know what instructions you are looking at but my ISTA says to remove the camshaft gears first as per their normal procedure, which is use to use the camshaft lock tools + TDC pin. Then for the timing chain job itself,, you keep the camshafts lock + you install a flywheel locking tool (there's different locking tool depending on if the engine is removed from car/transmission or on and I think different one for manual VS automatic), remove the TDC pin and then you can loosen crank bolt. And then the rest of the instructions.

[topfuel67]

I finally have gotten back to this PIA. Removing the oil pan was not fun. I can see that someone definitely had the pan off as they used gobs of gray sealant. Plus the power steering bolt was stripped and I almost couldn't get that off.
Anyways, now that I am putting it back together I am trying to find the correct procedure to get the timing gears back on properly. When I took it apart I still marked the gears so I could be in the ball park. After reviewing countless images (including the one posted in this thread) the gears appear to be in a completely different orientation. Without that gear cover, the gear itself has a tab in the center that lines up at the 12 o'clock position. The AUS EX writing is at 9 o'clock. The way I removed mine had the AUS EX at the 12 o'clock position. This is all in relation to the QR code being up at 12 o'clock.

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

Originally Posted by topfuel67

I finally have gotten back to this PIA. Removing the oil pan was not fun. I can see that someone definitely had the pan off as they used gobs of gray sealant. Plus the power steering bolt was stripped and I almost couldn't get that off.
Anyways, now that I am putting it back together I am trying to find the correct procedure to get the timing gears back on properly. When I took it apart I still marked the gears so I could be in the ball park. After reviewing countless images (including the one posted in this thread) the gears appear to be in a completely different orientation. Without that gear cover, the gear itself has a tab in the center that lines up at the 12 o'clock position. The AUS EX writing is at 9 o'clock. The way I removed mine had the AUS EX at the 12 o'clock position. This is all in relation to the QR code being up at 12 o'clock.

The gear orientation do not really matter, what is important is the the camshaft is oriented where it needs to be and locked. And also important to not mix up your exhaust and intake gears. The gears are bolted onto the locked camshaft so that's why it doesn't matter really. And then you have your aligning plate/block with nubs for the VANOS sensing plates that sit over the gear. It keeps everything in place while you tighten the camshaft bolt.

But yeah when I did my job the first time I did do aligning marks to make sure I didn't F up something but with ISTA it's pretty self explanatory.

[topfuel67]

So on the you tube videos it seems on the exhaust side the tab is at 12 and on the intake side it is at 1:30. This doesn't matter at all? It's just the cover that lines up with that blue holding tool? I'll still line it up around there, but I have been really trying to make sure that it is perfect.

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

Originally Posted by topfuel67

So on the you tube videos it seems on the exhaust side the tab is at 12 and on the intake side it is at 1:30. This doesn't matter at all? It's just the cover that lines up with that blue holding tool? I'll still line it up around there, but I have been really trying to make sure that it is perfect.

I don't want to make you do mistakes but IIRC it didn't matter when I did it.

I recommend you find a cracked ISTA version. That way you can double check yourself and all. I had same worry but reading official instructions gives me peace of mind and make sure I do it right.

[topfuel67]

I've searched and can't find it. I watched the video posted and that guy didn't line his up at the 12 o'clock position like the other videos I came across. He at least had his car running afterwards where the other videos didn't. Thank you for the input!

[BRG_N54]

Service manual says initial position is not critical, as you will use the locking tool to get everything in time. You will also need new bolts for those sprockets as they are TTY, and you will also install the dummy tensioner and put the correct preload on the chain while tightening those two bolts.

[Podunk]

Your cams where out of time, it is possible it jumped if someone turned the engine backwards, if it was running with no abnormal noises consider yourself very lucky pistons and valves didn't say hello to each other.

you can watch That 50's Kid or Vehicular DIY for procedure, or the guys up in canada that do BMW stuff ( Next Level Rides)

you want the cams centered with the tool, and the crank pinned, as long as the exhaust cam gear is on exhaust and intake on intake, the gear location doesn't matter much, because it is only bolt tension holding the gears in place. there is no timing mark on the gears

the hub gear, and cam gears DO NOT MATTER FOR POSITION SO LONG AS CRANK IS PINNED TDC AND CAMS ARE HELD IN PROPER LOCATION VIA TOOL.

the only thing that matters for timing is the cam position sensor wheel/VANOS wheel, Cams, and Crank positions are all proper, that is it. there should be an internal spring in the VANOS gears that centers the gears for retard or advance depending on pressure. and once chain is on and tensioned, you can snug the bolts and they should be centered in the vanos chambers. if you really want, a large wrench can hold the cams at the back while you torque the bolts.