[DCook]

Ill Chime in on this.

I have a 6466 Docrace kit. I love the car and the feel. What i dont love, is the 8 o2 sensors I've gone through because heat sinks are garbage. They say their gonna fix the kit, and i ask well what's the plans for us who need the fix and nothing. Several times. Also didnt get my exhaust gaskets, never got an email back on those or trying to buy replacement exhaust studs and gaskets.

Im more pissed about the o2 sensor issue, than replacing 3 motors... Needless to say, go bottom mount if you decide single.


I'll further edit, i know about the bosch adv sensors, but shouldn't have to drop 400$ on something that shouldn't be an issue. Im also aware i can make my own for half, but thats beside the point

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by DCook

Ill Chime in on this.

I have a 6466 Docrace kit. I love the car and the feel. What i dont love, is the 8 o2 sensors I've gone through because heat sinks are garbage. They say their gonna fix the kit, and i ask well what's the plans for us who need the fix and nothing. Several times. Also didnt get my exhaust gaskets, never got an email back on those or trying to buy replacement exhaust studs and gaskets.

Im more pissed about the o2 sensor issue, than replacing 3 motors... Needless to say, go bottom mount if you decide single.


I'll further edit, i know about the bosch adv sensors, but shouldn't have to drop 400$ on something that shouldn't be an issue. Im also aware i can make my own for half, but thats beside the point

Losing 3 motors is very rare. That's crazy man.

What 02 sensors are you using? Stock is not made for a preturbo environment, they can't handle the pressure and heat from my understanding and fail very quickly. You must be using NGK? If you want to make ADVs for $200, $100 per 02, that has got to be better than blowing through 8 02 sensors.

That must be very annoying, it sounds doc race specific from your description? DR manifold does not have a heat sink for the 02 sensor, just a welded threaded bung:



ACf welds heat sinks for the 02s:



Have you tried adding O2 heatsinks to the DR manifold? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/i...BoCTUgQAvD_BwE

[DCook]

Originally Posted by Torgus

Losing 3 motors is very rare. That's crazy man.

What 02 sensors are you using? Stock is not made for a preturbo environment, they can't handle the pressure and heat from my understanding and fail very quickly. You must be using NGK? If you want to make ADVs for $200, $100 per 02, that has got to be better than blowing through 8 02 sensors.

That must be very annoying, it sounds doc race specific from your description? DR manifold does not have a heat sink for the 02 sensor, just a welded threaded bung:



ACf welds heat sinks for the 02s:



Have you tried adding O2 heatsinks to the DR manifold? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/i...BoCTUgQAvD_BwE

Yeah its a doc kit, said that in the first post silly 😂😂
But Bosch o2s. Just havent felt the want to buy adv since well, when i got it nobody was having issues at the time. Then they mentioned recently that more people were having issues on Instagram. And i dont exactly wanna spend anymore money until i get my motor built anyway. I have tried the vtt sinks, same as the innovative(i think), and all it did was run around 18-19afr on both banks. I followed the indexing veer90 posted with no luck. Also tried drilling the centers out on a lathe and that still didnt work. Most of the o2s were replaced under autozone warranty thankfully lmao.

But 3 motors, they were all self inflicted. 1st one bent a rod on 32lbs racing a 19 z06. 2nd one shot a rod through the block giving someone a ride, i think the motiv boostbox spiked. 3rd one i dont know if i had a wg line melt or my 4 port died, as i switched to a gfb3, but it shot a #5 rod from overboost. Had it set to around 27, peaked 33. Turned the gfb to lowest duty, and seen 33 and then bam. The 4th one we're building is forged, studded, and im gonna try filling some of the coolant chambers around the cylinders while leaving enough room for the outlet on the side and to get to the head with a ported head. Still trying to figure what to do with a crank hub.

[nyt]

Originally Posted by DCook

Yeah its a doc kit, said that in the first post silly 😂😂
But Bosch o2s. Just havent felt the want to buy adv since well, when i got it nobody was having issues at the time. Then they mentioned recently that more people were having issues on Instagram. And i dont exactly wanna spend anymore money until i get my motor built anyway. I have tried the vtt sinks, same as the innovative(i think), and all it did was run around 18-19afr on both banks. I followed the indexing veer90 posted with no luck. Also tried drilling the centers out on a lathe and that still didnt work. Most of the o2s were replaced under autozone warranty thankfully lmao.

But 3 motors, they were all self inflicted. 1st one bent a rod on 32lbs racing a 19 z06. 2nd one shot a rod through the block giving someone a ride, i think the motiv boostbox spiked. 3rd one i dont know if i had a wg line melt or my 4 port died, as i switched to a gfb3, but it shot a #5 rod from overboost. Had it set to around 27, peaked 33. Turned the gfb to lowest duty, and seen 33 and then bam. The 4th one we're building is forged, studded, and im gonna try filling some of the coolant chambers around the cylinders while leaving enough room for the outlet on the side and to get to the head with a ported head. Still trying to figure what to do with a crank hub.

Why didn't you build a stronger bottom end when replacing the engines?

[V8bait]

Tips for doing ST right:

1) Plumb the wastegates with lines made of unobtanium. If you can't find that, use the next best thing you can find. Steel braided fire resistant threaded to the gate or whatever you can spend money on, and QUALITY gates. Locktite and route away from heat.
2) Place mac somewhere safe, and make sure all electrical connections are solid. In fact don't use adapters, cut and solder. If you go back to stock crimp shit back on and sell it but for now, do it right.
3) O2 sensor etiquette- get heatsyncs and NTK or ADV, and keep an O2 fund ready.
4) Boost control- stop with these geforce controllers. Spend a little more and get something mappable. At that level it'll also run the PI better than any AIC and also run your lpfp and meth and 2step or whatever probably too. Instead of 4 different boxes that do things just ok get one that does it all great.
5) Avoid boost leaks. Really. Lock that shit down. Good couplers everywhere with good bite, also applies to twin builds.

You now have a reliable single turbo setup. You're one of the 1%.

[Jeef]

Originally Posted by V8bait

Tips for doing ST right:

1) Plumb the wastegates with lines made of unobtanium. If you can't find that, use the next best thing you can find. Steel braided fire resistant threaded to the gate or whatever you can spend money on, and QUALITY gates. Locktite and route away from heat.
2) Place mac somewhere safe, and make sure all electrical connections are solid. In fact don't use adapters, cut and solder. If you go back to stock crimp shit back on and sell it but for now, do it right.
3) O2 sensor etiquette- get heatsyncs and NTK or ADV, and keep an O2 fund ready.
4) Boost control- stop with these geforce controllers. Spend a little more and get something mappable. At that level it'll also run the PI better than any AIC and also run your lpfp and meth and 2step or whatever probably too. Instead of 4 different boxes that do things just ok get one that does it all great.
5) Avoid boost leaks. Really. Lock that shit down. Good couplers everywhere with good bite, also applies to twin builds.

You now have a reliable single turbo setup. You're one of the 1%.

what kind of boost controller do you recommend? what do you think about eboost2?

[RJC612]

buddy of mine has a doc race 6266 on his 135i, he constantly reminds me of his regret going single. My view is singles belong on a track, whether its road coarse drag circle track or whatever. That makes sense. If you are streeting the car tho and want it to be fast and fun, twins makes more sense.
FWIW both routes can lead to great cars, its tough to bash one or the other but i prefer the driveability of the twins

[V8bait]

Originally Posted by Jeef

what kind of boost controller do you recommend? what do you think about eboost2?

Eboost2 is fine as are any controller really, but that's what $600, plus $400 for the AIC and you're already at a grand. I like the megasquirt 3 and the microsquirt (if you're tech savvy), haltech elite series etc. Vargas has a complete setup with adaptronic that's probably the best in the market. Most options will be 1200 to 1600 but will provide the best fuel and boost control and safeties. Microsquirt would be cheaper. Jb4 would be good if it could control boost in passive mode, but it can't so I don't recommend it, regardless it's at least $600 plus more for its bad fuel controller as well.

Eboost2 will get you there but everything just depends on your budget and what you already have really. And your goals.

[DCook]

Originally Posted by V8bait

Eboost2 is fine as are any controller really, but that's what $600, plus $400 for the AIC and you're already at a grand. I like the megasquirt 3 and the microsquirt (if you're tech savvy), haltech elite series etc. Vargas has a complete setup with adaptronic that's probably the best in the market. Most options will be 1200 to 1600 but will provide the best fuel and boost control and safeties. Microsquirt would be cheaper. Jb4 would be good if it could control boost in passive mode, but it can't so I don't recommend it, regardless it's at least $600 plus more for its bad fuel controller as well.

Eboost2 will get you there but everything just depends on your budget and what you already have really. And your goals.

Ms3 wont run p.i and direct injection will it? My gfb3 wasnt 600. Was 318. And i paid 1600 for the full port kit from bmp. So it was included. Way before the helix was introduced. And i really dont wanna switch and put more money into the thing. If it does, who tunes the ms3? Im familiar with the holley system. Ran it on my foxbody. But heres the thing, i want to keep full functionality of the car, trac control, abs, a/c specifically and all the goodies. Ms3 cant do that can it? I want the simplest and easiest way. Im content with my gfb3. Just battling o2 issuss. Not concerned about motors lol.

I refuse to run a jb4. It worked for a week, then left me stranded. Never again. I like a solid flash tune not piggyback.

And i was doing a built motor during the last 2 blown ones. First one was the core being used. Just wanted the car driveable. And the 2nd motor i got warranty on by claiming dumb. So really im only out 1500 plus 300 in maintenance.

Also, i dont know of any reliable twins that'll handle daily abuse running 800+ hp, 33+lbs of boost. The last thing i want is to drop the subframe over junk turbos.

[feuer]

JB4 passive boost control? Like an emulator? Can someone please explain this further? Thank you in advance!

[V8bait]

Originally Posted by DCook

Ms3 wont run p.i and direct injection will it? My gfb3 wasnt 600. Was 318. And i paid 1600 for the full port kit from bmp. So it was included. Way before the helix was introduced. And i really dont wanna switch and put more money into the thing. If it does, who tunes the ms3? Im familiar with the holley system. Ran it on my foxbody. But heres the thing, i want to keep full functionality of the car, trac control, abs, a/c specifically and all the goodies. Ms3 cant do that can it? I want the simplest and easiest way. Im content with my gfb3. Just battling o2 issuss. Not concerned about motors lol.

I refuse to run a jb4. It worked for a week, then left me stranded. Never again. I like a solid flash tune not piggyback.

And i was doing a built motor during the last 2 blown ones. First one was the core being used. Just wanted the car driveable. And the 2nd motor i got warranty on by claiming dumb. So really im only out 1500 plus 300 in maintenance.

Also, i dont know of any reliable twins that'll handle daily abuse running 800+ hp, 33+lbs of boost. The last thing i want is to drop the subframe over junk turbos.

That's a good price for the controller, many of them can be pretty pricey and by the time you wire in the safeties and the AIC might as well have a stand alone is all I'm saying lol. Microsquirt can run PI in 2 banks, which is twice as many as AIC lets you use, but unlike the AIC it can have closed loop feedback if you so choose and dozens of other options and can also control boost, fuel pumps, and many other things https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...stem-ecu-only/. It also costs LESS than the AIC. I honestly don't know who at split-second paid off the N54 community into using their controller. It is the most basic thing ever. But anyway I digress...

The word stand-alone is a misnomer. You can use them to run a V8 that you put in a sand rail, sure. Or you can use them to turn on a coffee maker in your trunk when you hit 8,000RPM and do nothing but that. You use whatever features of them that you need or want. In the N54 world, that includes boost control, PI control, meth, maybe nitrous and that's probably about it. DME does the rest (traction control, water pump, hpfp control, A/C, fan control, whatever else).

[Quick335XI]

Originally Posted by nyt

Why didn't you build a stronger bottom end when replacing the engines?

This!

[DCook]

Originally Posted by Quick335XI

This!

Can you not read? I stated in my last post i was.

[idspeedskater]

I have been enjoying my ST on the highways at odd commute hours, daily driving it, and loving that it is still kicking given when I got it and from whom... it's ancient at this point, but awesome

[feuer]

Why do o2 sensors don’t go after the turbo? Like on twin setup.
I see two deferent NTK
NTK 24322 #0065422718, 11787557756, 11787558055
NTK 24345 #11787557758, 11787558087
These are like OEM Bosch just withstand high temperature better, correct?
Does any one have info on repinning AVD sensors?

[IllSic_Design]

Originally Posted by feuer

Why do o2 sensors don’t go after the turbo? Like on twin setup.

Probably so they can measure each bank, where after a single turbo it would be both banks merged into one.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Torgus

Losing 3 motors is very rare. That's crazy man.

What 02 sensors are you using? Stock is not made for a preturbo environment, they can't handle the pressure and heat from my understanding and fail very quickly. You must be using NGK? If you want to make ADVs for $200, $100 per 02, that has got to be better than blowing through 8 02 sensors.

That must be very annoying, it sounds doc race specific from your description? DR manifold does not have a heat sink for the 02 sensor, just a welded threaded bung:



ACf welds heat sinks for the 02s:



Have you tried adding O2 heatsinks to the DR manifold? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/i...BoCTUgQAvD_BwE

So those on ACF kit are actual heat sinks like those linked from Innovative that are welded onto the manifold?

[feuer]

Originally Posted by IllSic_Design

Probably so they can measure each bank, where after a single turbo it would be both banks merged into one.

That make sense, for fueling, as banks have different control by ecu. Why on n51, n52 and n53 even that is DI the o2 sensors don’t burn up? They are all mounted before the catalyst on that manifold, not far from the head, exposed to heat and pressure and all of that. Probably is just tune related on ST.

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by feuer

Why do o2 sensors don’t go after the turbo? Like on twin setup.
I see two deferent NTK
NTK 24322 #0065422718, 11787557756, 11787558055
NTK 24345 #11787557758, 11787558087
These are like OEM Bosch just withstand high temperature better, correct?
Does any one have info on repinning AVD sensors?

IIRC:

Because there is one DP and turbo, not two.

The ECU looks at it the N54 like two 3 cylinder engines(to be semi-crude) it has an 02 sensor for each 3 cylinders. So it can adjust fuel for each bank correctly. When you look at datalog you see trims for each bank etc.

This is fine when you have 2 turbos and 2 downpipes. When you only have one the only way to get 2 accurate 02 sensor readings is by having each in the exhaust manifold before the turbo and not in the downpipe where the readings would be combined.

Single 02 sensor is and has been in development by Jymonya(sp?) for a while now. It would also get the 02s out of the harsh preturbo environment and somewhere nice and happy in the DP. This would allow for longer 02 life and less expensive 02 sensors.

If you sent the same signal 02 signal to the DME it would cause errors. This is because the computer tries small adjustments per bank. You can imagine this issues that could pop up.

Originally Posted by feuer

So those on ACF kit are actual heat sinks like those linked from Innovative that are welded onto the manifold?

Yes, the 02 bungs Anthony welds on to the manifold have built in heatsinks. granted when I had my manifold ceramic coated the coated coated the heatsinks as well! But my 02 have been ok. I have the ADVs installed. The ACF is the best designed top mount ST kit on the market. Significantly better than DR but everyone keeps buying DR for some reason. Same price. I blame the youtubers. Hell the n54 top mount market has kept DR in business.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Torgus

IIRC:

Because there is one DP and turbo, not two.

The ECU looks at it the N54 like two 3 cylinder engines(to be semi-crude) it has an 02 sensor for each 3 cylinders. So it can adjust fuel for each bank correctly. When you look at datalog you see trims for each bank etc.

This is fine when you have 2 turbos and 2 downpipes. When you only have one the only way to get 2 accurate 02 sensor readings is by having each in the exhaust manifold before the turbo and not in the downpipe where the readings would be combined.

Single 02 sensor is and has been in development by Jymonya(sp?) for a while now. It would also get the 02s out of the harsh preturbo environment and somewhere nice and happy in the DP. This would allow for longer 02 life and less expensive 02 sensors.

If you sent the same signal 02 signal to the DME it would cause errors. This is because the computer tries small adjustments per bank. You can imagine this issues that could pop up.





Yes, the 02 bungs Anthony welds on to the manifold have built in heatsinks. granted when I had my manifold ceramic coated the coated coated the heatsinks as well! But my 02 have been ok. I have the ADVs installed. The ACF is the best designed top mount ST kit on the market. Significantly better than DR but everyone keeps buying DR for some reason. Same price. I blame the youtubers. Hell the n54 top mount market has kept DR in business.

I understand why need to be two o2 before the turbo but don’t understand the logic behind the claim that heat and pressure kills o2 sensors on ST n54. Many o2 sensors are placed onto the exhaust manifold even closer than they are on these ST manifold. Example is bmw n53 that is also DI and o2 are like feet away from the head, no turbo obviously. Can you expect those aren’t burning up?

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by feuer

I understand why need to be two o2 before the turbo but don’t understand the logic behind the claim that heat and pressure kills o2 sensors on ST n54. Many o2 sensors are placed onto the exhaust manifold even closer than they are on these ST manifold. Example is bmw n53 that is also DI and o2 are like feet away from the head, no turbo obviously. Can you expect those aren’t burning up?

I think the answer is backpressure. There is more back pressure in the ST manifold because there is a turbo in front of it(restriction) before the DP. In an NA set up there is very little BP. My understanding is heat + BP kills the 02s.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Torgus

I think the answer is backpressure. There is more back pressure in the ST manifold because there is a turbo in front of it(restriction) before the DP. In an NA set up there is very little BP. My understanding is heat + BP kills the 02s.

Would one turbo create more back pressure than two catalytic converters? o2 survive for hundreds of thousands of miles on cars with catalytic converter that are probably getting hotter and just as much pressure. More and more I think is tune related. Same kits, same parts, some have problems and some don’t, only the tunes are different.