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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Has anyone contacted BMW regarding 29.2 and lag?



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      11-14-2008, 10:41 AM   #2729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clivem2 View Post
So MY08 cars don't need the wastegate management changes of 29.2, so will they reverse these changes?.....

I guess I know the answer.....
According to BMW, the answer is "yes", this is what Autobild wrote:

"Und die Problemautos vor Baujahr September 2007? Hier will BMW die Besitzer offenbar mit einer billigen Softwarelösung abspeisen, anstatt gleich die teuren Turbos zu tauschen. Dafür spricht, dass in Kürze - wie bei Microsofts Pannen-Betriebsystem Windows Vista - ein Downgrade der Steuersoftware auf die alte Version möglich sein soll."

Translated:

"And the problem cars built before September 2007? BMW obviously wants to put off their owners with a cheap software solution, instead of exchanging the expensive turbos. Which seems even more probable given that shortly - as with Microsoft's breakdown operating system Windows Vista - a downgrade of the control software to the former version will be made possible."

Also, this is the same info as I was given by BMW, namely that in late december or early next year a downgrade will be possible as a field solution.

I cannot tell you whether this will be a downgrade to the delivery version for the car or a completely new version that has pre-v29.2 wastegate behaviour again. However, it will only be available for MSD80 cars as BMW sees no need for newer MSD81 cars.
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      11-14-2008, 10:46 AM   #2730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meyergru View Post
Today, there was an article in the german car mag "Autobild". Sorry, no link.

BMW has admitted that they changed v29.2 in order to reduce wastegate rattle. O.K., this was a know fact. They state that the induced delay (aka "Lag (tm)") is ~150ms, which "For sure, no customer will notice.". Boy, were they wrong.

Furthermore, they say that cars from MY08 (Build dates from 09/07 on) have different turbos and wastegates which will not develop have those problems.

MSD81 cars (from build dates 03/08 on) do have a different software than MDS80 ones which does not require those changes (because they always have new turbos) and thus have no delay. Autobild has measured and verified that for an MSD81 car, although (this is info from the reporter himself and not in the article) maximum torque came only from 1700 RPM and he said he had expected more initial thrust. Everything else (i.e. power, elasticity and acceleration figures) was just as it was with the car they measured back in 2006.

BMW plans to bring out a downgrade software for MSD80 cars which fixes the Lag but can cause wastegate rattling again for cars with old turbos (i.e. before 09/07). I don't know if these will be replaced if this happens - maybe they hope the problem develops after end of warranty.

I am lucky enough to have a MY08 09/07 build date and will downgrade as soon as possible after release of the software.

Wow, thank you meyerguru!
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      11-14-2008, 11:12 AM   #2731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meyergru View Post
Today, there was an article in the german car mag "Autobild". Sorry, no link.

BMW has admitted that they changed v29.2 in order to reduce wastegate rattle. O.K., this was a know fact. They state that the induced delay (aka "Lag (tm)") is ~150ms, which "For sure, no customer will notice.". Boy, were they wrong.

Furthermore, they say that cars from MY08 (Build dates from 09/07 on) have different turbos and wastegates which will not develop have those problems.

MSD81 cars (from build dates 03/08 on) do have a different software than MDS80 ones which does not require those changes (because they always have new turbos) and thus have no delay. Autobild has measured and verified that for an MSD81 car, although (this is info from the reporter himself and not in the article) maximum torque came only from 1700 RPM and he said he had expected more initial thrust. Everything else (i.e. power, elasticity and acceleration figures) was just as it was with the car they measured back in 2006.

BMW plans to bring out a downgrade software for MSD80 cars which fixes the Lag but can cause wastegate rattling again for cars with old turbos (i.e. before 09/07). I don't know if these will be replaced if this happens - maybe they hope the problem develops after end of warranty.

I am lucky enough to have a MY08 09/07 build date and will downgrade as soon as possible after release of the software.
No customer will notice?

What morons.....
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      11-14-2008, 11:21 AM   #2732
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MSD81 versions are 03/08 and later correct? Anything before that is MSD80 like my 12/07 build date? I am just asking because in the article it states anything on or before 09/07 is MSD80?
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      11-14-2008, 11:24 AM   #2733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meyergru View Post
Also, this is the same info as I was given by BMW, namely that in late december or early next year a downgrade will be possible as a field solution.
Thanks for the translation! The timing stacks up with hints of promises for something special in V32. For me personally with a July 08 build it sounds like I should have good turbos but need better s/w than 30.0.2
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      11-14-2008, 11:33 AM   #2734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof3ssor View Post
MSD81 versions are 03/08 and later correct? Anything before that is MSD80 like my 12/07 build date? I am just asking because in the article it states anything on or before 09/07 is MSD80?
my car also built on 2008 03 so i have MSD81
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      11-14-2008, 12:02 PM   #2735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof3ssor View Post
MSD81 versions are 03/08 and later correct? Anything before that is MSD80 like my 12/07 build date? I am just asking because in the article it states anything on or before 09/07 is MSD80?
If I read meyer's post correctly, it goes like this:

Pre 9/07 builds: MSD80 and older turbos/wastegates.
9/07 - 3/08 builds: MSD80 and newer turbos/wastegates.
3/08 and later builds: MSD81 and newer turbos/wastegates.

The change to MSD81 is not set in stone in terms of when it happened in March, so if you are a 3/08 build you have to manually check the ECU to find out.
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      11-14-2008, 12:12 PM   #2736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meyergru View Post
I really wonder how you managed to go from v27.2 to v31.1. Here you say on 08-13-2008 that you just traded in your 325i for a new 335i. If it was new, it should have had Progman with at least v29.2 right from the start.

And if that is the case, you can imagine the question that follows next: "Have you ever driven a pre-v29.2 car to be so sure you don't have the Lag (tm) or are you just happy to be better off than with the previous 325i?"

No offense intended, just asking. Nice ride, BTW.
Nice sleuthing, but I bought it ex-demo. The date on the hood shows that it was built in Sep 2007 even though it was registered in January 2008. It had v27.2 on it from the factory and hadn't been reflashed until last week. I'm happy to answer any questions you all have, just let me know...
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      11-14-2008, 12:22 PM   #2737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slubu View Post
If I read meyer's post correctly, it goes like this:

Pre 9/07 builds: MSD80 and older turbos/wastegates.
9/07 - 3/08 builds: MSD80 and newer turbos/wastegates.
3/08 and later builds: MSD81 and newer turbos/wastegates.

The change to MSD81 is not set in stone in terms of when it happened in March, so if you are a 3/08 build you have to manually check the ECU to find out.
Yup, it goes like that.

BTW: Although there are 4 part numbers for turbos in the ETK, there are actually only two types of turbos that were used - the other two ETK numbers are for right hand drive cars - yes, the turbos are different for those.

MSD81 cars apparently never had any software-related problem since - according to BMW - there was never a software fix for the rattle. So maybe we owe an excuse to MSD81 owners stating they have no lag. Although the measurement still says that full boost is achieved only after 1700 RPM (this is not in the article!).

MSD80 owners can get a downgrade in a short while. But cars built before 09/07 face the risk of wastegate rattling if they are downgraded.

On MSD80/81 differentiation: You can also look it up in the ETK by your VIN number if the ETK is young enough.
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      11-14-2008, 12:27 PM   #2738
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbodle View Post
Nice sleuthing, but I bought it ex-demo. The date on the hood shows that it was built in Sep 2007 even though it was registered in January 2008. It had v27.2 on it from the factory and hadn't been reflashed until last week. I'm happy to answer any questions you all have, just let me know...
O.K., so "new" did not mean "brand new", I understand. Your built date and software release is exactly the one I have, that is how I got the idea that something had to be wrong. We're lucky fellows since our hardware seems to be fine and we can get old Lag(tm)-free behaviour back soon!
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      11-14-2008, 12:28 PM   #2739
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It's hard to hold out hope if BMW thinks that the MSD81 cars don't have the problem.

Mine is a 2006 build. Old turbos/wastegates vs new turbos/wastegates. I've been keeping up with this thread but what exactly was changed with the wastegates and turbos?

-B
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      11-14-2008, 12:28 PM   #2740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meyergru View Post
MSD81 cars apparently never had any software-related problem since there was never a software fix for the rattle. So maybe we owe an excuse to MSD81 owners stating they have no lag. Although the measurement still says that full boost is achieved only after 1700 RPM (this is not in the article!).
So does this mean that MSD81 cars should perform the same as MSD80 cars pre 29.2? Reports of people taking test drives suggests the latest cars are still not as good as the early cars.
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      11-14-2008, 12:44 PM   #2741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clivem2 View Post
So does this mean that MSD81 cars should perform the same as MSD80 cars pre 29.2? Reports of people taking test drives suggests the latest cars are still not as good as the early cars.
That is what I gleaned from several reports as well (not having driven one myself), despite BMW saying that there was no necessity to change wastegate behaviour with MSD81.

Shiv's posting here seems to second BMW's claim. Although he also says: "Maybe not as responsive but very close.".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tschuss View Post
It's hard to hold out hope if BMW thinks that the MSD81 cars don't have the problem.

Mine is a 2006 build. Old turbos/wastegates vs new turbos/wastegates. I've been keeping up with this thread but what exactly was changed with the wastegates and turbos?

-B
It was a hardware fix for the problem described in this SIB.
There are part numbers of the wastegate actuator replacements in the SIB that are not available separately in the ETK. The ETK only holds part numbers for the turbos including actuators. I don't really know if there has been changed something in the turbos themselves as well. That would make a difference only in terms of material cost, work is expensive anyhow.

Here is a nice explanation of the problem. In order to cut cost, BMW first tried to solve that problem by a software fix (first in v29.2), keeping the wastegates open during idle, thus causing lag.
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      11-14-2008, 03:36 PM   #2742
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So lemme get this straight. Not having the car yet but wanting it, I kinda want to check the build date and confirm this when I get it.

If you have an MSD80/old turbos car, replace the turbos AND get the new software?

If you have an MSD80/new turbos car, then just get the software upgrade?

If you have an MSD81/new turbos car, then just get the software upgrade?

I wanna make sure, cause I want to have it in writing that I get new turbo's or something should the rattle come back or what have you for when I get the car.
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      11-14-2008, 04:35 PM   #2743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackz View Post
If you have an MSD80/old turbos car, replace the turbos AND get the new software?
Theoretically yes, but 1. I think the wastegates will suffice, you don't need to change the whole turbos and 2. I doubt that BMW will do that if there is no wastegate rattle yet. After you are out of warranty, you're out of luck. I'd get warranty extension or not buy such a car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackz View Post
If you have an MSD80/new turbos car, then just get the software upgrade?
I think it will be a downgrade, not an upgrade, but yes. Remember: it has yet to be determined if the problem is completely fixed by this and the downgrade will only be available late 2008 or early 2009.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackz View Post
If you have an MSD81/new turbos car, then just get the software upgrade?
BMW says that software for MSD81 does not need nor include the wastegate rattle fix and thus there is no lag with those cars. So why change the software? I think that MSD81 software is still not as up to snuff as was MSD80 with pre-v29.2. But because complaints of owners of newer cars are seldom, I doubt that there will be a downgrade option for MSD81 cars. Besides: downgrade to what? v29.2 was the first version for MSD81 anyway, or am I wrong?



You see: It's not so easy...
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      11-14-2008, 05:12 PM   #2744
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I'll have to try to comprehend this info later - looks juicy!

Meanwhile, it's no wonder our shop foremans can't feel the lag, they don't even know that our cars have two identically sized turbos! Both foremen peoples and the service advisor I saw today thought the car had one small and one big turbo. I shouldn't know more than them!
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      11-14-2008, 05:29 PM   #2745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaddai View Post
I'll have to try to comprehend this info later - looks juicy!

Meanwhile, it's no wonder our shop foremans can't feel the lag, they don't even know that our cars have two identically sized turbos! Both foremen peoples and the service advisor I saw today thought the car had one small and one big turbo. I shouldn't know more than them!
yea, you live in such a small town! LOL
find somebody else, if you can!
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      11-14-2008, 06:02 PM   #2746
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Sounds like you guys have finally gotten to the bottom of this. I've been lurking since around page 10 and this, if legitimate, is the most progress I've seen to date. Thanks to everyone who has been so persistent on this issue.

I have a 09/07 build and can't wait for the fix.
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      11-14-2008, 06:48 PM   #2747
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Originally Posted by CrazyJ View Post
Sounds like you guys have finally gotten to the bottom of this. I've been lurking since around page 10 and this, if legitimate, is the most progress I've seen to date. Thanks to everyone who has been so persistent on this issue.

I have a 09/07 build and can't wait for the fix.
yes, mine is 8/07 and this seems hopeful. But we must continue to press BMW. Why else will they do it?
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      11-14-2008, 09:25 PM   #2748
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Interesting to say the least. I have an 4/08 build and it came with v29.2 hence I should have MSD81. Im curious why I would have MSD81 (post 3/08 build) but diddnt come with v30.1. ( I got the new software after a HPFP was replaced) Must have been a grey area in time until the new software for HPFP was out. Now let me recap...I have an 4/08 build with MSD81, I also have the newer wasegates and turbos, but, v32 will do nothing for me cuz my software is up-to-date and I have new turbos and wastegates. BUT I STILL HAVE THE FU@#*IKNG LAG THAT THE CAR I TEST DROVE DID NOT!!!!!!

I want a Mercedes Benz.
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      11-14-2008, 11:41 PM   #2749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meyergru View Post
MSD81 cars apparently never had any software-related problem since - according to BMW - there was never a software fix for the rattle. So maybe we owe an excuse to MSD81 owners stating they have no lag.
That would be an apology not an excuse. And yes... you do. Apology accepted.
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      11-14-2008, 11:42 PM   #2750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoupe View Post
yea, you live in such a small town! LOL
find somebody else, if you can!
Okay - it gets really frustrating about now. I had three people drive my car today, the foreman(s) and the regional tech who's name is Jim (I did get his last name, though I have since forgot it, it's not Stig). Supposedly none of them felt the lag. To be honest, I didn't feel it too much either... WHILE i was up there. My theory at this point is the car had really really reached operating temperature and somehow works better at that temp. When I picked the car up, it was lag city as normal. I should clarify it's a 40+ minute drive to the dealer...

Reading the "how the engine works" document in the sticky section of this forum really opened my eyes as to how incredibly complicated this N54 engine is. There's a section describing engine temperature levels and the associated power or economy of the temperature levels.

As for the earlier tidbits about MSD81 stuff, I know this - I have a 4/08 build with 30.0.2 (unsure of what it was delivered with, but most likely 29.2) and I experience The Lag. If BMW says I don't have it, well... that's great. Thanks.
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