[nicknaz]

Guys, I am thinking about purchasing a spot in two different run groups to max out seat time. Most DEs I've attended are 4x20minutes or 5x25minutes. Do you think it unrealistic of me to go to 4x40 minutes? Is that pretty much a setup for disaster?

[leftcoastman]

Man, that's a lot of track time. At one event, I did 4x30 minutes and I was wiiiiiped out mentally by the last session.

If they are back to back, I can't imagine your tires/brakes can handle 40 straight minutes. Even my Rcomps get greasy after 30 mins.

Why not sign up for an open weekday track day? All the time you want.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

Man, that's a lot of track time. At one event, I did 4x30 minutes and I was wiiiiiped out mentally by the last session.

If they are back to back, I can't imagine your tires/brakes can handle 40 straight minutes. Even my Rcomps get greasy after 30 mins.

Why not sign up for an open weekday track day? All the time you want.

I haven't seen any 'all you can drive' norcal events. Post a link please?

But how would 'all you can drive' be different from 4x40? By letting me have 20minute sessions with breaks in between to give the tires/brakes/mind a chance to rest?

So tempting.

[mike-y]

I've done that, though it was with one car and 2 drivers, and we just swapped. The car held up fine. It's still winter/spring, so heat shouldn't be too much of an issue, just watch your tires and make sure you have good brake fluid, and maybe an extra set of pads if yours are low.

[DrDomer]

I've been to a 6x20mins DE and we all left before the last run. 100 mins was plenty for me, I couldn't imagine 160mins. Not sure it would be productive.

I can really tell when I'm getting mentally and physically fatigued in my Tag Kart as my lap times go to shit, and so I stop. With DE's they're not generally timed (unless you do that yourself), so I could see myself going longer than I should... and an "OH SHIT!" moment occur. Just my two cents.

[S4to335]

My car couldnt handle that..it barely takes 4 X 20 minute sessions. YOu could do it..but I would take a 10 minute break in between..and do 15/10 break/15/20break/15...etc.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by S4to335

My car couldnt handle that..it barely takes 4 X 20 minute sessions. YOu could do it..but I would take a 10 minute break in between..and do 15/10 break/15/20break/15...etc.

Are there any street legal production cars that can easily handle 4x40minute sessions in stock form without breaking a sweat ? 911 GT3? Z06? Would be nice if the car can handle as much driving as i can throw at it

[blipblip]

Most P-cars will do it. Don't know about their SUVs though.

I always run open track days (in fact just this past Sunday). Everything on the car worked fine but the brakes. I ran maybe 7-8 30-40 minutes long sessions. You gotta ease up a little after a while to cool the brakes down a little before pushing it again though. Definitely can't run 10/10th throughout. And oh, I corded a set of new R-comps that day alone...ouch...

[satakal]

I just did six 25 minute sessions. The car is a champion. The brain... needs work.

Spend the money on you the driver instead of spending it on making the car faster. But, without instruction, is it money well spent...

[S4to335]

Food for thought..there is no reason why you should wad up your car cause you were trying to get your money's worth doing a double (8 runs at 20 minutes each). You will get tired..physically and mentally. I personally wouldnt do more than 6 X 25 sessions. You can tell when you are tired...missing your apexes..tires getting greasy or overinflated...all of a sudden getting a nasty push... Live to fight another day.

[O-cha]

That's not much time overall but if you don't have good sized breaks it's probably not the best idea.

I do about 3-3:30 or 4-5 hours a day depending on the group but there are 30 - 45 minute breaks + lunch in between :30-1 hour sessions. So there's plenty of time to regain your stamina.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

Are there any street legal production cars that can easily handle 4x40minute sessions in stock form without breaking a sweat ? 911 GT3? Z06? Would be nice if the car can handle as much driving as i can throw at it

Both that you mentioned and a ton more, the car/engine itself anyway. N54 is not meant for the track and it shows. It just runs incredibly inefficient out there and heatsoaks so much.

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Both that you mentioned and a ton more, the car/engine itself anyway. N54 is not meant for the track and it shows. It just runs incredibly inefficient out there and heatsoaks so much.

Hmm, I know you switched away from the 335 to another track vehicle, but your statement is not accurate.

The stock OC and IC is not suited for track use. Fix those two and you have a vehicle/engine combination that eats the E92 M3, Cayman S, E46 M3, M Coupe, 911S and various others alive on the track. Try to tell those guys (all instructors, fyi) that they got eaten alive by a car that is "incredibly inefficent and heatsoaks so much".

And this is for 30 minute sessions at the full Miller Motorsports track...think 4+ miles with 150+mph straights....in 85-90 degree heat.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by satakal

Spend the money on you the driver instead of spending it on making the car faster. But, without instruction, is it money well spent...

I've always tracked stock/street tire equipped cars and bikes and don't see that changing anytime soon.

I have no clue what you are trying to say with the instruction comment. My logbook is full of great feedback from a variety of qualified instructors

EDIT: as i'm sure you know after you learn to give yourself the same feedback that the instructor gives you, you need to go practice on your own to fully internalize the learning. having someone riding with you each and every session is not an efficient use of $, IMHO

[Feffman]

Nick:

As a reference point, we (www.MVPTrackTime.com) run six, 20-minute sessions and by the last run session approximately 40% of our attendees are done because they are tired.

Feff

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

Hmm, I know you switched away from the 335 to another track vehicle, but your statement is not accurate.

The stock OC and IC is not suited for track use. Fix those two and you have a vehicle/engine combination that eats the E92 M3, Cayman S, E46 M3, M Coupe, 911S and various others alive on the track. Try to tell those guys (all instructors, fyi) that they got eaten alive by a car that is "incredibly inefficent and heatsoaks so much".

And this is for 30 minute sessions at the full Miller Motorsports track...think 4+ miles with 150+mph straights....in 85-90 degree heat.

Lmao, fast does not mean it was meant for the track. Give me a break. Are you so ignorant (in the literal sense not the personal attack sense) to ignore everything about the engine to try and reason that it's meant for performance?

The core design of the turbos alone make it not for track use. They are sized improperly for high RPM power and in attaining the power they do take a huge hit in efficiency. The entire core of the engine design is setup for commuter efficiency, fuel economy and comfort (yes engines can be setup for comfort) The engine is made to be a commuter, period. Even with an upgraded IC and OC you're still going to run hot when you push it.

That's nice that you lapped all those people on track, and that they are all "instructors". You should know damn well that doesn't mean squat for comparing the cars.





I understand you like your car and it works for you, you may very well be faster then X person in X car that is built more for the track. But that does not change the fact that the n54 and 335 are not built to go on track. It's not meant for the track, It's not setup to go on track, and has no business doing heavy track duty without serious modification.


Enjoy your car, but don't be delusional.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by O-cha

You should know damn well that doesn't mean squat for comparing the cars.

Maybe it is a case of something being great on paper but lousy in the real world. Shouldn't something 'designed for the track' be faster than something that is not?

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

Maybe it is a case of something being great on paper but lousy in the real world. Shouldn't something 'designed for the track' be faster than something that is not?

In the hands of the same person with the same setup sure. You put to different people even "instructor" level people in two different cars and try and use that for a comparison and you're just a fool, let alone the likely differences in tires, brake compounds, setups, and overall effort being put forth by the driver. Any "instructor" level person should be able to tell you that. The ones who know would just laugh and brush aside a statement like that comparing cars as it's ridiculous.

As an example the second track event in my coupe where I was still even feeling out the car I was much faster then an "instructor" with years of experience in the same car. Wow I must be a pro (or not)!!! Except he had different tires and brake compounds which alone made for a good sized gap in performance not related to skill. I'm also sure I was driving with more effort.


It's just ignorant to compare in this way even if the other driver is known to have plenty of experience.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

Maybe it is a case of something being great on paper but lousy in the real world. Shouldn't something 'designed for the track' be faster than something that is not?

Also I should note that something designed for the track does not have to be faster then something not designed for the track. Look at spec Miatas for instance. How well a car takes the track use is more indicative of it being "for the track" then how quickly it goes around track.

[leftcoastman]

Making comparisons between various cars is always difficult when you have different drivers.

Of all the run groups, the instructor run group has the most similar driver skill levels, period. Unless you're willing to do a same driver / same experience with car / same ambient conditions comparison, you're making an estimate.

Instructor level drivers on the same day are about as close to equalizing the skill level playing field as you can get.

And I disagree with you. Funny enough, I heard the same thing from an S54 equipped M3 owner..... "Well you may be much faster than me, but my car is made for the track and yours isn't!" Coincidentally, he's on his second engine and the car is in the shop now getting bushings replaced.

I prefer being the faster one. To each his own.

[mike-y]

it's just really hard comparing random people in random cars. Some tracks favor cars with high hp, and some favor cars that handle better. Its really hard to make a sweeping generalization from things that happened on a particular track once. The 335i is a very fast car, but it is heavy, and is susceptible to heat issues with the turbos. 30 minutes at a time is one thing, but try an endurance race that lasts 6-8 hours and see how the car holds up. Not saying the 335 can't do it, but without beefing up the cooling systems and braking system, it's going to be very difficult. But that's not just the 335i. The truth is, most street cars are the same way. Few cars are really designed for the track right out of the box.

And usually, unless someone posts lap times, it's almost impossible to know how fast they were really driving.

[S4to335]

Originally Posted by mike-y

it's just really hard comparing random people in random cars. Some tracks favor cars with high hp, and some favor cars that handle better. Its really hard to make a sweeping generalization from things that happened on a particular track once. The 335i is a very fast car, but it is heavy, and is susceptible to heat issues with the turbos. 30 minutes at a time is one thing, but try an endurance race that lasts 6-8 hours and see how the car holds up. Not saying the 335 can't do it, but without beefing up the cooling systems and braking system, it's going to be very difficult. But that's not just the 335i. The truth is, most street cars are the same way. Few cars are really designed for the track right out of the box.

And usually, unless someone posts lap times, it's almost impossible to know how fast they were really driving.

Give me my old Spec Miata for an enduro...they are bullet proof after you upgrade to a decent radiator.