[Sgop335]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

How about the old school Castrol rebranded BMW-logo High Performance SAE 5W30, PN 07 51 0 017 866? Is that really LL-01?

There are recent posts on the other enthusiast forum saying that BMW-logo is not LL-01 approved(the back label only lists A3/B3).

If you are referring to this,
https://www.amazon.com/Castrol-03037...trol+gold+5w30
Yes

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Sgop335

If you are referring to this,
https://www.amazon.com/Castrol-03037...trol+gold+5w30
Yes

I am referring to this BMW-logo oil. Is this LL-01?

https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_In...SABEgIzGfD_BwE

[Sgop335]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

I am referring to this BMW-logo oil. Is this LL-01?

https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_In...SABEgIzGfD_BwE

Dont know but why bother when there so many great oils that meet spec.

[bavarianride]

So Penzoil says their Platinum 5W30 and 5W40 meet LL-01 spec too, are those the same as BMW Twinpower Turbo(rebranded Shell)?

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

So Penzoil says their Platinum 5W30 and 5W40 meet LL-01 spec too, are those the same as BMW Twinpower Turbo(rebranded Shell)?

I believe so.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

I believe so.

Good to know.

Interestingly, Twinpower Turbo 5W30 LL01, as well as Shell's Platinum Euro 5W30(A3/B4), are both only API SL.

Is SL good enough for turbo engine? The API website says SN is good for turbo.

And is SL for cars made 2004 and older?!? :

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

...

Is SL good enough for turbo engine? The API website says SN is good for turbo.

And is SL for cars made 2004 and older?!?

I haven't paid attention to the API stuff for 10 years, ever since I discovered the ACEA specs - which is what every European manufacturer cars about. It's much more descriptive. BMW's LL-xx specs are subsets of ACEA; the LL-01 is a subset of ACEA A3/B3-4, and the LL-04 adds C4 to that.

The API stuff is just junk, IMO. And SAE, too. FTM, oil weights on the bottle are mostly useless, as the LL specs incorporate real viscosity measurements based upon actual test descriptions.

You should go to bobistheoilguy.com and peruse some articles. More information than you'll ever need about oil is answered there.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

I haven't paid attention to the API stuff for 10 years, ever since I discovered the ACEA specs - which is what every European manufacturer cars about. It's much more descriptive. BMW's LL-xx specs are subsets of ACEA; the LL-01 is a subset of ACEA A3/B3-4, and the LL-04 adds C4 to that.

The API stuff is just junk, IMO. And SAE, too. FTM, oil weights on the bottle are mostly useless, as the LL specs incorporate real viscosity measurements based upon actual test descriptions.

You should go to bobistheoilguy.com and peruse some articles. More information than you'll ever need about oil is answered there.

Great tips.

There is a thread in the other forum arguing the told BMW High Performance 5W30 PN 866 is not LL01, since the bottle does not say LL01?!? It is bad that BMW sells oil that does not meet its own LL01 spec ....

The next oil change is coming up, so I want to find the right oil this time for a turbo engine.

BTW, LL01 means 2001, right? ACEA A3/B4 has many versions, 2004/2007/2008/2010/2012/2016. Which version is LL-01 compatible to?

When a bottle says A3/B4, which version of ACEA it refers to?

[bavarianride]

BTW, there are oils that do not have LL01 but have MB 229.5, which matches even LL01FE pretty well.

E.g. Mobil1 FS 0W-40 lost LL01 cert, but it still has MB 229.5, plus API SN, and A3/B4(which version?!?).

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

...
BTW, LL01 means 2001, right? ACEA A3/B4 has many versions, 2004/2007/2008/2010/2012/2016. Which version is LL-01 compatible to?

When a bottle says A3/B4, which version of ACEA it refers to?

https://www.oilspecifications.org/acea.php

Really, the LL-01 oil spec (or at least the claim that it was ACEA A3/B3-4) expired in like 2006. At least as near as I can tell. It's not surprising that BMW (and other manufacturers) updated their spec to LL-12 and LL-14.

You probably haven't noticed, but there has been a big attitude change regarding oil choice in the BMW forum community in the last 10 years. During the E46 period (the first to require synthetic), there were a lot of people pooh-poohing LL-01, partly because BMW doesn't require "full-synthetic" Group-IV base stock. (Amusingly, some people insist that the current Helix process does not produce a "true" synthetic.) There were many that insisted that 3K/5K oil changes with "dino" oil produces just as good results. Or that other non-LL01 synthetic oils were "just as good" as LL01. I *can* tell you that I used Mobil 1 10W-30 (ACEA A5/B5 non-LL01) at 7.5K OCI in my '01 330xi, and it was using 1 quart per 1200 miles at 145K. But that might just be the engine - notorious oil user, with a badly-designed CVV.

Since that time, most of the posters have shifted towards being almost religiously LL-01 promoters. Not sure if that's altogether a good thing due to the loss of rationality that goes with it, but it's where we're at.

Let's also not forget the outliers (and maybe it should be "liars") like Amsoil, Royal Purple, et. al. (though I believe that Royal Purple finally did get it's oil certified LL-01) that claim their oil "meets or exceeds" manufacturers standards, but that also won't pony up for the actual independent testing necessary to say "certified to meet LL-01" Personally, my take is that one oil (Amsoil's euro oil) can't meet all the requirements of BMW, Mercedes-Benz, VW, etc. all in one oil. The specs of the manufacturers are too disparate.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

https://www.oilspecifications.org/acea.php

Really, the LL-01 oil spec (or at least the claim that it was ACEA A3/B3-4) expired in like 2006. At least as near as I can tell. It's not surprising that BMW (and other manufacturers) updated their spec to LL-12 and LL-14.

You probably haven't noticed, but there has been a big attitude change regarding oil choice in the BMW forum community in the last 10 years. During the E46 period (the first to require synthetic), there were a lot of people pooh-poohing LL-01, partly because BMW doesn't require "full-synthetic" Group-IV base stock. (Amusingly, some people insist that the current Helix process does not produce a "true" synthetic.) There were many that insisted that 3K/5K oil changes with "dino" oil produces just as good results. Or that other non-LL01 synthetic oils were "just as good" as LL01. I *can* tell you that I used Mobil 1 10W-30 (ACEA A5/B5 non-LL01) at 7.5K OCI in my '01 330xi, and it was using 1 quart per 1200 miles at 145K. But that might just be the engine - notorious oil user, with a badly-designed CVV.

Since that time, most of the posters have shifted towards being almost religiously LL-01 promoters. Not sure if that's altogether a good thing due to the loss of rationality that goes with it, but it's where we're at.

Let's also not forget the outliers (and maybe it should be "liars") like Amsoil, Royal Purple, et. al. (though I believe that Royal Purple finally did get it's oil certified LL-01) that claim their oil "meets or exceeds" manufacturers standards, but that also won't pony up for the actual independent testing necessary to say "certified to meet LL-01" Personally, my take is that one oil (Amsoil's euro oil) can't meet all the requirements of BMW, Mercedes-Benz, VW, etc. all in one oil. The specs of the manufacturers are too disparate.

It is great to hear someone still remembers those dino oil discussions!

A comment on a recent oil thread on the other forum mentioned non-synthetic/dino, and it was met with "crazy talk".

And you are correct the "meets or exceeds" scams probably are quite rampant, and BMW can be involved too. E.g. BMW's Twinpower Turbo 5W30 is LL-01, but only API SL, sounds about right?!?

Back in E46/E39 dates, BMW High Performance 5W30 A3/B3 API SL was the benchmark, or conventional wisdom. But even in those 2000-2001 timeframe, with LL-2001 spec, the BMW oil itself still did not carry LL-01 label(that BMW oil never carries a LL-01 label), although bobistheoilguy posts showed that BMW-log 5W30 is close to a 5W40, and rivals many LL01 certified oil.

[Sgop335]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Great tips.



The next oil change is coming up, so I want to find the right oil this time for a turbo engine?

have you found the right oil so far? Lol what do you drive anyway?

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Sgop335

have you found the right oil so far? Lol what do you drive anyway?

Mine is F30 N26 I4 turbo, so my thinking is API SN, A3/B4, MB 229.5 + LL01/LL01FE.

So the choices are:

1. BMW Twinpower Turbo 0W30 LL01FE A3/B4 API SN ($61 5L + oil filter shipped)
2. Mobil 1 FS 0W40 MB 229.5 A3/B4 API SN ($26 5Qt@local Walmart)
3. Penzoil Euro 0W40 MB 229.5 A3/B4 API SN($23 5Qt@local Walmart)
4. Penzoil Euro 5W40 MB 229.5 + LL01 A3/B4 API SN($9 1Qt@local Walmart)

Option #2 and #3 can be $40 including BMW oil filter.
Option #4 is similar price as #1.
Option #1 is BMW recommended.

My leaning is #1.

[Sgop335]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Mine is F30 N26 I4 turbo, so my thinking is API SN, A3/B4, MB 229.5 + LL01/LL01FE.

So the choices are:

1. BMW Twinpower Turbo 0W30 LL01FE A3/B4 API SN ($61 5L + oil filter shipped)
2. Mobil 1 FS 0W40 MB 229.5 A3/B4 API SN ($26 5Qt@local Walmart)
3. Penzoil Euro 0W40 MB 229.5 A3/B4 API SN($23 5Qt@local Walmart)
4. Penzoil Euro 5W40 MB 229.5 + LL01 A3/B4 API SN($9 1Qt@local Walmart)

Option #2 and #3 can be $40 including BMW oil filter.
Option #4 is similar price as #1.
Option #1 is BMW recommended.

My leaning is #1.

My wifes bmw happens to be a n20 e84.
Anyway, of the choices listed above 1 is probably the best. 3 and 4 are Group 3. There are better options out there at similar price point(I'm biased to 100% synthetic lol, pao/ester)

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Sgop335

My wifes bmw happens to be a n20 e84.
Anyway, of the choices listed above 1 is probably the best. 3 and 4 are Group 3. There are better options out there at similar price point(I'm biased to 100% synthetic lol, pao/ester)

For $20 extra #1 does sound like best choice.

It looks like API classifies GTL as Group III or Group III+. In fact all 4 oils on post#301 are GTL.

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by Sgop335

My wifes bmw happens to be a n20 e84.
Anyway, of the choices listed above 1 is probably the best. 3 and 4 are Group 3. There are better options out there at similar price point(I'm biased to 100% synthetic lol, pao/ester)

Motul, Total Quartz, Liqui Moly probably have LL12/whatever oils. I would be surprised if Pentosin doesn't have one, too.

The whole Group IV/PAO are the only "full synthetic" oils is a crap argument. The Shell Helix isn't "full synthetic", because the intermediate isn't Group IV.

It's especially silly when the person making that argument is changing their oil every 5K/7.5K miles, wasting their outdated argument on an outdated desire to change oil more often than the manufacturer recommends.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

Motul, Total Quartz, Liqui Moly probably have LL12/whatever oils. I would be surprised if Pentosin doesn't have one, too.

The whole Group IV/PAO are the only "full synthetic" oils is a crap argument. The Shell Helix isn't "full synthetic", because the intermediate isn't Group IV.

It's especially silly when the person making that argument is changing their oil every 5K/7.5K miles, wasting their outdated argument on an outdated desire to change oil more often than the manufacturer recommends.

Online search says LL12 and LL14 are special oil:

"BMW Longlife-12 (BMW LL-12)
Special motor oil for certain approved gasoline engines and the following diesel engines only: Nx7K1, Nx7U1, Nx7O1 from model year 2013. Not suitable for engines with 2 or 3 turbos
.
BMW Longlife-14+ (BMW LL-14+)
Special motor oil for the following gasoline engines only: N20, Bx8 from model year 2014. Not allowed for diesel engines."

[Sgop335]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

Motul, Total Quartz, Liqui Moly probably have LL12/whatever oils. I would be surprised if Pentosin doesn't have one, too.

The whole Group IV/PAO are the only "full synthetic" oils is a crap argument. The Shell Helix isn't "full synthetic", because the intermediate isn't Group IV.

It's especially silly when the person making that argument is changing their oil every 5K/7.5K miles, wasting their outdated argument on an outdated desire to change oil more often than the manufacturer recommends.

I prefer and don't use HC or synthetic technology oils. For similar price points im able to find pao/ester oils/ 100% synthetic. If i start incl group 3 in my selection the field is too large and im not able to effectively filter considering the marketing gimmicks lol

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Sgop335

I prefer and don't use HC or synthetic technology oils. For similar price points im able to find pao/ester oils/ 100% synthetic. If i start incl group 3 in my selection the field is too large and im not able to effectively filter considering the marketing gimmicks lol

What are the Group 4 PAO/Ester options at similar price points, say, $23-$26/5 Qt range?

[bavarianride]

BTW, does BMW ever publish data sheet on their own BMW-logo oil?

My N26 got the old school BMW High Performance 5W30 07 51 0 017 866 from dealer before the oil switched to Twinpower Turbo 5W30.

A poster on the other forum said 07 51 0 017 866 does not meet LL01 spec, but bobistheoilguy posts said BMW lists this on approved LL01 oil list.

Does anyone has a link to that LL01 oil list that shows 866 as an approved LL01 oil?

[Sgop335]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

What are the Group 4 PAO/Ester options at similar price points, say, $23-$26/5 Qt range?

lol sorry none in that range, more in the price point of your first option.
$8-$10 a liter is realistic..unless thers a sale
you keep asking about 07 51 0 017 866, just a guess but could that be ll-98?

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Sgop335

lol sorry none in that range, more in the price point of your first option.
$8-$10 a liter is realistic..unless thers a sale
you keep asking about 07 51 0 017 866, just a guess but could that be ll-98?

$8-$10 a liter is not bad, I think LiquiMolly LL-01 is in that range, so is LiquiMolly PA0? There is no description in back label.

LL98 PN 866 is possible, but unclear since back label does not say, nor any data sheet is (publicly?) available. Many say PN 866 is rebranded Gold Castrol 5w30(definitely LL01), but there is no written proof.

It is just that BMW service has used PN 866 till 2013-2014, it is odd they used a non-LL01 oil for so long on their own cars ....