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      01-16-2019, 11:46 AM   #23
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Wait ... wait... wait... this many posts and no one has brought up Audi/VW infamous 2.0T oil consumption?????
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      01-16-2019, 12:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by tilua View Post
I agree, Honda and Toyota paint are crap! the clear coat oxidize so fast if you dont wax it every 6 months. Lexus on the other hand, its paint is much better and thicker clear coat.
I don't know, my girlfriends 2013 IS250 has such crap paint theres rust in 2 different places. If a bmw that new had rust id be very surprised.
And yes honda has to make the worst paint in the business, my friends and i always point out the hilarious amount of paint left on the roofs
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      01-16-2019, 12:17 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
The E90 has been a tank so far.

Japanese cars aren't what they used to be. They are resting on their laurels. My parents have driven Hondas for 20+ years, and after my mom's 2011 Fit, they say it will be their last Honda. Poor quality issues all around including paint, suspension, squeaks and rattles, etc, especially for a car that has under 60k easy driven miles and is garaged.
This post got me on a rant and I had around four paragraphs written but decided to scrap it and keep it simple. Yes, I agree with you. The Japanese manufacturers' quality is not what it used to be and the cars they're cranking out now, at least the SUVs and economy cars, don't seem as good as the ones from the 90s. I feel like they're riding on their brand reputation and aren't trying as hard to live up to it, cutting corners wherever they can. I wanted a new Fit or Civic but after driving them I changed my mind. I had an 03 Accord and a 16 Accord and both were excellent cars, significantly better build quality than any Fit or Civic over the past 18 years or so, and no major issues. I have a 2011 Pilot with 95K miles on it and while it's still a great car, it definitely feels cheaper than the Accord, especially the interior. The Pilot also has a bunch of issues that I never expected to experience with a Honda or any Japanese brand, and it turns out all the issues I'm experiencing are very common to almost all Pilots.

Honda introduced Direct Injection on their V6 that powers the 2016 Pilot. I follow some popular Honda forums, and surprise surprise they are starting to experience injector failure! See, BMW was just about 10 years ahead with the N54!

All brands have their issues, but unfortunately I don't know what other brand I would trust right now besides Honda or Toyota. I'd add BMW to that, at least the German-made cars (not the USA-made SUVs or Z3/Z4), not just because I'm posting here but because I have some ownership experience and I'm armed with diagnostics tools and not entirely dependent on a dealership for repair/service. After hearing all the troubles a friend of mine is going through with not one but TWO late model Audis (Q5 and Q7) I can confidently say I will NEVER own an Audi again. I had one in 2000 with numerous issues, and after hearing my friend's stories it seems that nothing changed. I would consider a modern Mazda, but all the quality and mechanical issues during their Ford partnership days really turned me off. I think I would have to lease and see what happens after a few years. Not surprisingly, all the major Mazda issues I've dealt with (helping family/friends with repairs) turned out to be major issues with their Ford-sourced engines. (Mazda 6 V6 with bad rod knock very early in its life, early model Mazda CX-9 with an oil pan full of coolant from a failed water pump seal).

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Originally Posted by tilua View Post
I agree, Honda and Toyota paint are crap! the clear coat oxidize so fast if you dont wax it every 6 months. Lexus on the other hand, its paint is much better and thicker clear coat.
I never had an issue with Honda or Toyota paint, but then again I have always clay/polished/waxed every three months. I bought my E90 used and the previous owner stored it outside under the intense CA sun, and despite that the paint is in good condition. There are some scratches and chips that can't be polished out, but overall I'm impressed with the paint quality.

Last edited by lowrydr310; 01-16-2019 at 12:28 PM..
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      01-16-2019, 12:29 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by lowrydr310 View Post
This post got me on a rant and I had around four paragraphs written but decided to scrap it and keep it simple. Yes, I agree with you. The Japanese manufacturers' quality is not what it used to be and the cars they're cranking out now, at least the SUVs and economy cars, don't seem as good as the ones from the 90s. I feel like they're riding on their brand reputation and aren't trying as hard to live up to it, cutting corners wherever they can. I wanted a new Fit or Civic but after driving them I changed my mind. I had an 03 Accord and a 16 Accord and both were excellent cars, significantly better build quality than any Fit or Civic over the past 18 years or so, and no major issues. I have a 2011 Pilot with 95K miles on it and while it's still a great car, it definitely feels cheaper than the Accord, especially the interior. The Pilot also has a bunch of issues that I never expected to experience with a Honda or any Japanese brand, and it turns out all the issues I'm experiencing are very common to almost all Pilots.

All brands have their issues, but unfortunately I don't know what other brand I would trust right now besides Honda or Toyota. I'd add BMW to that, at least the German-made cars (not the USA-made SUVs or Z3/Z4), not just because I'm posting here but because I have some ownership experience and I'm armed with diagnostics tools and not entirely dependent on a dealership for repair/service. After hearing all the troubles a friend of mine is going through with not one but TWO late model Audis (Q5 and Q7) I can confidently say I will NEVER own an Audi again. I had one in 2000 with numerous issues, and after hearing my friend's stories it seems that nothing changed. I would consider a modern Mazda, but all the quality and mechanical issues during their Ford partnership days really turned me off. I think I would have to lease and see what happens after a few years. Not surprisingly, all the major Mazda issues I've dealt with (helping family/friends with repairs) turned out to be major issues with their Ford-sourced engines. (Mazda 6 V6 with bad rod knock very early in its life, early model Mazda CX-9 with an oil pan full of coolant from a failed water pump seal).



I never had an issue with Honda or Toyota paint, but then again I have always clay/polished/waxed every three months. I bought my E90 used and the previous owner stored it outside under the intense CA sun, and despite that the paint is in good condition. There are some scratches and chips that can't be polished out, but overall I'm impressed with the paint quality.
I think the bottom line is you have to do your research no matter what you buy. Blanket statements can't be made about any brand these days because they all produce so many models and configurations.

Look at the E90 for example, the same exact car but with a different engine and a few features can be a completely different reliability experience (N52 vs. N54).
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      01-16-2019, 01:04 PM   #27
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About 15 years ago, I had a mid '80s Toyota Supra, and when that thing hit about 90k miles, I must have been broken down waiting for a tow to replace another cooling system hose two dozen times. I'm sure I replaced a few of them more than once in the space of 15k miles.
When I finally sold it, the guy who bought it drove it the 6 or 7 hours to Rochester NY. Half way there, the thermostat pegged itself in the red, probably due to yet another hose failing. He kept going, and then called me to ask if I'd give him some of his money back when he discovered that he had blown the head gasket.

Short version? Everything has problems.
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      01-16-2019, 01:13 PM   #28
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E90 cooing systems are fairly decent even with the plastic bits..no where near bad as the E46..Just be glad you dont own a F3x..Plastic Oil pan (RWD), plastic trans cooler lines, plastic trans cooler assembly, plastic oil filter housing assembly, overly complicated high and low coolant circuits on the B series engines with 4 radiators. Remember a few years back, BMW thought a plastic oil filter housing on the N2x was a wise decision. With BMW its always two steps forward, three steps back IMO
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      01-16-2019, 02:41 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
I think the bottom line is you have to do your research no matter what you buy. Blanket statements can't be made about any brand these days because they all produce so many models and configurations.

Look at the E90 for example, the same exact car but with a different engine and a few features can be a completely different reliability experience (N52 vs. N54).
Well said, and the only reason the N54 was unreliable because it was a new engine for BMW and it was bringing forth many new technologies. It was their first mass produced Turbo and it had direct injection, for 2006 how many cars had direct injection? No Japanese car, that's for sure. Honda and Toyota only recently been making direct injection after the German's sorted out all the issues. The Japanese rarely take risks and stick with old technology.
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      01-16-2019, 02:43 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
Wait ... wait... wait... this many posts and no one has brought up Audi/VW infamous 2.0T oil consumption?????
And they have timing chain pensioner issues on the same engine. That is their low HP basic engine and it has major issues that are not for a DIY to fix. I would stay away from Audi / VW; they rarely make a bulletproof engine.
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      01-16-2019, 02:52 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
The E90 has been a tank so far.

Japanese cars aren't what they used to be. They are resting on their laurels. My parents have driven Hondas for 20+ years, and after my mom's 2011 Fit, they say it will be their last Honda. Poor quality issues all around including paint, suspension, squeaks and rattles, etc, especially for a car that has under 60k easy driven miles and is garaged.
So not true. Be a fan boy all u want. The Japanese reliability is well know. That's one area u can't dispute.

Forget these stories. I had a Honda and it had problems blah blah. Honda Toyota are on top. Toyota is the largest car company in the world for a reason. BMW realised they need to do things better. And they are. But E90 is a disaster.

BMWs business philosophy is changing. They started to do things like the Japanese. So much so that Toyota is now working with them. We are sitting on a bad platform.
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      01-16-2019, 02:54 PM   #32
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E90 is a disaster?
I'd say E90 is a tank compared to E46. One of the more reliable generations of BMWs, excepting the N54 engine.
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      01-16-2019, 02:58 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TemjinX2 View Post
BMW uses a lot of plastic to save weight and cheaper grades of plastic to save money. Thats why you see that a current 3 series is around 200lbs lighter then a lexus or infinit.

Can they fix this?? yes they can but they won't because they would prefer you lease a car from them every 3yrs instead of keeping your car for 10yrs. They make their money off the 1st and 2nd buyer. They dont care about the 3rd or 4th buyer.
I agree with your first statement completely, there is also an amazing amount of aluminum used on this car and they go through the major hassle and cost to mount the battery in the trunk.

I completely disagree with your last statement. If that were true, then why do their engines and body last so long. There are many examples with high mileage and cars that drive in the rust belt which are still running fine and do not rust. Not to mention, the interior minus that rubbery coating holds up very well.

I see the car design to last a long time but they also realized that having the owner outside the warantee replace a few easy things is not an issue. And really, for the driving experience, changing those odd items like a hose or gasket isn't an issue.

Everyone talks about Toyota but nobody mentions their crash performance. Go lookup crash test data for a 2000s Toyota and even Mazda. They are not stellar.
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      01-16-2019, 03:39 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mecheng77 View Post
I agree with your first statement completely, there is also an amazing amount of aluminum used on this car and they go through the major hassle and cost to mount the battery in the trunk.

I completely disagree with your last statement. If that were true, then why do their engines and body last so long. There are many examples with high mileage and cars that drive in the rust belt which are still running fine and do not rust. Not to mention, the interior minus that rubbery coating holds up very well.

I see the car design to last a long time but they also realized that having the owner outside the warantee replace a few easy things is not an issue. And really, for the driving experience, changing those odd items like a hose or gasket isn't an issue.

Everyone talks about Toyota but nobody mentions their crash performance. Go lookup crash test data for a 2000s Toyota and even Mazda. They are not stellar.
You can see it in the quality of the plastic BMW uses compared to the japanese brands or even compared to another german brand like porsche. They tend to be thinner and feels cheaper compared to other brands. You can go into a 10yr old porsche and the interior will look the same as it was brand new and it doesnt randomly break, so its not a Japanese vs German thing. BMW just chooses to use cheaper parts in certain areas to save cost.

From a business perspective, BMW corporate only makes money on the 1st buyer lease and 2nd buyer CPO. The 3rd and 4th buyer are going to be purchases between dealerships and its not something BMW Corporate is going to make money on...so why invest unecessary costs on something they won't receive a ROI on, when the majority of their customers lease.

BMW and Mercedes markets itself as advanced technology luxury brand vs lexus which markets itself as more of a reliable with high resale value brand. Their direct competitors, but at the same time they appeal to different demographics, so they prioritize different aspects of the car. Your getting better durability with the lexus versus better driving dynamics with the BMW.

Driving dyanmics is something you can feel instantly on the road. Durability and reliablity is something your only going to see 5-10yrs down the line, if your a 3yr lease reliablity doesnt matter, BMW is going to focus on offering the best driving dynamics and lighter weight as cost efficiently as possible. Keep in mind BMW is a very small manufacturer compared to Toyota Group, Nissan Group, or the VW group...their ability to reduce costs their economys of scale is much less.

Last edited by TemjinX2; 01-16-2019 at 03:50 PM..
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      01-16-2019, 05:09 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TemjinX2 View Post
You can see it in the quality of the plastic BMW uses compared to the japanese brands or even compared to another german brand like porsche. They tend to be thinner and feels cheaper compared to other brands. You can go into a 10yr old porsche and the interior will look the same as it was brand new and it doesnt randomly break, so its not a Japanese vs German thing. BMW just chooses to use cheaper parts in certain areas to save cost.

From a business perspective, BMW corporate only makes money on the 1st buyer lease and 2nd buyer CPO. The 3rd and 4th buyer are going to be purchases between dealerships and its not something BMW Corporate is going to make money on...so why invest unecessary costs on something they won't receive a ROI on, when the majority of their customers lease.

BMW and Mercedes markets itself as advanced technology luxury brand vs lexus which markets itself as more of a reliable with high resale value brand. Their direct competitors, but at the same time they appeal to different demographics, so they prioritize different aspects of the car. Your getting better durability with the lexus versus better driving dynamics with the BMW.

Driving dyanmics is something you can feel instantly on the road. Durability and reliablity is something your only going to see 5-10yrs down the line, if your a 3yr lease reliablity doesnt matter, BMW is going to focus on offering the best driving dynamics and lighter weight as cost efficiently as possible. Keep in mind BMW is a very small manufacturer compared to Toyota Group, Nissan Group, or the VW group...their ability to reduce costs their economys of scale is much less.
I don't think you have the business model exactly correct. BMW corporate makes huge revenue's from parts, so they do have a vested interest in 2nd and 3rd and 4th tier ownership.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 01-16-2019 at 08:23 PM..
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      01-16-2019, 05:18 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I don't think you have the business model exactly correct. BMW corporate makes huge revenue's from parts, so they do have a veslted interest in 2nd and 3rd and 4th tier ownership.
Correct and the markup for BMW dealer only parts is
Insane.

Also, not everyone leases cars, many buy them and expect
At min the car to last 200,000km. No car wants the reputation
That their cars completely die shortly after a lease.
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      01-16-2019, 07:07 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
Yup. I had a 1990 XJ Limited with the renix system. Closed cooling system worked fine during the time I had it. Zero issues.
my junk worked fine for the better part of beating it mercilessly offroad for a decade.

in the end it was the copper radiator tanks that gave it up, not the plastic bottle.
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      01-16-2019, 08:30 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mecheng77 View Post
Correct and the markup for BMW dealer only parts is
Insane.

Also, not everyone leases cars, many buy them and expect
At min the car to last 200,000km. No car wants the reputation
That their cars completely die shortly after a lease.
My car has lasted well past 200,000km with mostly the original cooling system (as documented on E90 post). The t-stat died at 121,000 miles, the pump died at 149,000 miles and I pointlessly replaced all the cooling system hoses at 231,000 miles; none of them needed replacement. The radiator went 350,000 miles but I replaced it after I found a deer in the middle of the road and the radiator core support twisted a slight bit.

Other than the design for the electric coolant pump, I think the E9X cooling system is quite robust. The new t-stat and pump have lasted far longer than the factory parts. Both replacement parts are genuine BMW. I have commented many times, and in my coolant hose DIY, that the plastic BMW hose connectors are highly complex to design and manufacture and I see no point to their use. The complex parts just add to the cost of the car and don't eliminate the classic 100-year old hose connection, which is a hose bib and screw-type or spring-type hose clamp. The connectors are completely idiotic; the Engineering VP who directed and approved their use should be fired.
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      01-17-2019, 09:09 AM   #39
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On the E46, you had failing radiators, pumps, hoses and expansion tanks, badly designed PCV, cracked subframes, melting tailights, constantly failing window regulators, bad vanos, broken DISA flaps, I could go on... - most E90s never have those problems. Oh and if your cooling system did break (which they always did), you also probably needed a new head or even a new block, while I know for a fact the N5x can run much much hotter that 120c and survive without any damage at all.

People do love to replace stuff here that's not broken (and then complain that it's expensive), or run double the factory power (while beating the fuck out of their cars) and then complain that they have problems.. durrr.

Maybe the water pump dies at 100k miles (mine went to 130k, many go longer), big deal - if I still have the E90 at 300k when (or if) the replacement dies, I will have spent $0.001 per mile on the water pump replacement. Maybe it dies sooner on a turbo car, but if you expect a turbo car to be reliable you're a fool. I've driven my car for the last 5 years with only extremely minor repairs - the most expensive maintenance by far was the tires.
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      01-17-2019, 09:43 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I don't think you have the business model exactly correct. BMW corporate makes huge revenue's from parts, so they do have a vested interest in 2nd and 3rd and 4th tier ownership.
That only supports my original statement. Using lower quality parts, will cause greater replacement of parts more often.

Also thats not considered there primary business model..there's a reason why they dont announce year over sales on parts versus cars.

If your making millions of cars a yr...if you can save $100-300 per car..that ends up being huge savings in costs.

Last edited by TemjinX2; 01-17-2019 at 09:48 AM..
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      01-17-2019, 09:47 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mecheng77 View Post
Correct and the markup for BMW dealer only parts is
Insane.

Also, not everyone leases cars, many buy them and expect
At min the car to last 200,000km. No car wants the reputation
That their cars completely die shortly after a lease.
BMW corporate sells the parts to dealerships at a fixed cost...the markup is up to the dealership and those profits go to the franchise dealership itself, not to corporate.

Thats why you see dealerships sell parts for almost double msrp inside the dealership but half the price on their online stores.

At least thats how it works in the united states, i dont know what the car franchise laws are in canada.
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      01-17-2019, 09:55 AM   #42
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The only coolant hose I'd bother touching is the thermostat->head one. Not even from the hose, its the plastic piece that fails.
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      01-17-2019, 10:13 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TemjinX2 View Post
That only supports my original statement. Using lower quality parts, will cause greater replacement of parts more often.

Also thats not considered there primary business model..there's a reason why they dont announce year over sales on parts versus cars.

If your making millions of cars a yr...if you can save $100-300 per car..that ends up being huge savings in costs.
I've owned BMWs for 30 years and total combined miles at almost 900,000 on 4 cars, so I think I'm pretty familiar with long term, high mileage BMW ownership. The fact that you can own a 20- year old BMW that was a nitche car and didn't sell in any great market numbers (my wife's Z3), and still get almost any part for it as OE from the manufacturer using an on line resource like RealOEM.com is a testament to how BMW DOES care about downstream post new-sale and off-lease owners.

For example, in 2017 we took the 20-year old Z3 on a road trip out to the Rockies and back from the East Coast. Going through the car in prep for the trip, I bought a few spare, plastic cooling system parts, that if they failed, would take a week to source. So I was able to get OE coolant hose bibs that bolt onto the block and cylinderhead, real obscure parts for the M44, (which wasn't used in a great many cars in the US market) from my local dealership prior to the road trip. I owned an E30 for 18 years and never had a problem getting any part for it through BMW. Your business model is wrong and your statement is not true. Auto parts are sourced on an open world supplier market, BMW doesn't use any cheaper or more expensive parts than any other manufacturer.
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      01-17-2019, 10:30 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertman123 View Post


The only coolant hose I'd bother touching is the thermostat->head one. Not even from the hose, its the plastic piece that fails.
Do you mind sharing where you get those aluminum parts?
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