[magillagorilla]

How about dealing with hills?

I'm new to MT and my car is due in a month and a half. There is a major hill outside of my office that I will be dealing with every day as I pull out of the parking lot.

My concern is the proper form for dealing with this. I've seen discussions where people talk about burning out your clutch on a hill. I noticed a bit of a burning clutch smell after I practiced on this hill with a friend's car (after 2 stalls).

Can someone weigh in on exactly what you should be doing when stopped in the middle of a steep hill and how best to start (e.g., clutch in or out with the car in neutral, etc.)? TIA

[!Xoible]

there's BMW hill assist that will stop the car for you from rolling for like 2 seconds which should be enough.

What you can do also is:
1. pull e brake
2. clutch in and put in gear
3. start releasing the clutch with giving gas (a bit more than usual)
4. when the car wants to move release the e-brake

[magillagorilla]

Originally Posted by mantis

there's BMW hill assist that will stop the car for you from rolling for like 2 seconds which should be enough.

What you can do also is:
1. pull e brake
2. clutch in and put in gear
3. start releasing the clutch with giving gas (a bit more than usual)
4. when the car wants to move release the e-brake

What are people referring to when they talk about using the clutch to hold one on a hill (resulting in shorter clutch life)?

I get the concept of stopping on the hill, putting the brake on and getting off the clutch until it looks like cars are about to get moving, then putting the clutch in and moving to first and giving gas, but not sure that I understand what people mean by when they talk about using the clutch to "hold" the car on the hill.

[!Xoible]

say the car wants to roll back, and you want to take off like you normally do on regular roads. at some point the car is going to stop rolling back, there's that one point where you can just hold it by pushing gas and keeping the clutch semi-engaged. that's bad

[magillagorilla]

Originally Posted by mantis

say the car wants to roll back, and you want to take off like you normally do on regular roads. at some point the car is going to stop rolling back, there's that one point where you can just hold it by pushing gas and keeping the clutch semi-engaged. that's bad

"Bad" as in you shouldn't do this for 10 seconds or bad as in it is OK to do it for 2 seconds?

[!Xoible]

dont hold the car just to make it not roll. if you are taking off you'll have to do it for 1+ seconds, that's fine.

theres people who do it for like minutes

[jdink]

haha i learned how to drive a manual on a miata... totaly different from driving a 335 manual. if you tap the clutch on the miata it is basically already on the floor

been working on my heel toe lately on my 335.... hardest part is my usualy foot placement on the gas doesnt allow for a heal toe so ive had to adjust that so i dont have to move my heal when i want to downshift

[!Xoible]

u actually heel-toe or side-ball of foot?

[jdink]

ball- side sorry but i try to keep my heal in the same place so i dont have to lift it. i find if i have to lift my heal to apply the break then i miss sometimes and then the side of my foot slips off the gas

[!Xoible]

different cars require different positioning of foot. might be damn awkward. what i do sometimes is go on youtube and find japanese racing vids. and try to learn from them. they know how to drive... for asians anyway

jkkj

[BK]

Originally Posted by magillagorilla

"Bad" as in you shouldn't do this for 10 seconds or bad as in it is OK to do it for 2 seconds?

2 seconds or 10 seconds, it's not good.

The "hill assist" on BMW is different. Hill assist uses the brakes to hold you still, not the clutch. On the E9x, just start on a hill like you would start off on a flat surface. The brakes continue to hold for up to 2 seconds (as long as the clutch is in), allowing you to get started off without rolling backwards at all.

On a car without hill assist, you either need to use the e-brake or be good at engaging the clutch quickly enough that you don't roll backwards much. Here's the bad thing you can do -- you can hold the clutch at the engagement point and just keep it there. Then you're holding the clutch / gas at the point where it is just engaged enough to keep you from rolling backwards, but not engaged enough to go forward. Your clutch is basically slipping the whole time, and that's what we're saying is bad. This is how you burn out a clutch. You don't have to worry about this on your E9x.

[Arustik1]

most of you know a thing or 2 about standard shifts so if you dont mind answer me this... the shift into second veryyy rough, stiff, and made me not like to shift. anyway what i do to make this easier is while having the clutch in and shifting from first to second touch the gas then slowly release the clutch to engage in the second gear. is this bad for the tranny???

[BK]

Originally Posted by Arustik1

most of you know a thing or 2 about standard shifts so if you dont mind answer me this... the shift into second veryyy rough, stiff, and made me not like to shift. anyway what i do to make this easier is while having the clutch in and shifting from first to second touch the gas then slowly release the clutch to engage in the second gear. is this bad for the tranny???

Don't worry about it. Feathering into 2nd isn't really a bad thing to do. Slamming it into 2nd or grinding it would be worse IMO.

[Arustik1]

What about just feathering it into the rest of the gears before letting out the clutch just for a smoother shift??

[!Xoible]

you don need feathering at all after 2nd gear in this car.

[BK]

Originally Posted by Arustik1

What about just feathering it into the rest of the gears before letting out the clutch just for a smoother shift??

You mean into 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th? Feathering is feathering, it wears the clutch some. But unless you mean excessively feathering into gear, it's no big deal. Your clutch isn't meant to be completely on-off binary. To some extent, you feather every time you shift (assuming you aren't racing).

You start dragging out the feathering, and that's when you're wearing your clutch too much. If you're new to MT, it won't take long until you get the hang of doing just what you need for a smooth shift.

[BK]

Originally Posted by mantis

you don need feathering at all after 2nd gear in this car.

I generally agree. To reconcile mantis's statement w/ mine above, I just mean unless you're racing and driving your car really hard, your leg doesn't bounce up and down like a pogo stick when you shift.

Newbies might be so afraid of "riding the clutch" they think it's got to be either on or off. While that's good advice to keep them from burning out the clutch, they should know there's always a time where you hit the clutch engagement point and you don't just pop it into gear, you are a bit more gentle with it. This only takes a split second and isn't so much like feathering into 1st gear, but I was referring to it as "feathering" nonetheless.

[!Xoible]

@ BK

[STE92VE]

Everyone brings some good points to the table but you have to realize, you can write about proper shifting techniques all day, but driving a stick is all about feel. If your shifts are smooth and your passenger doesn't realize that you have a stick, then you are doing it right. If their head snaps back and forth like a bobble head doll, you're doing something wrong. If you get out of your car and something smells burnt, you're doing it wrong.

[!Xoible]

yes it's all about balance! when i first started learning i would ditch the clutch too quick, so engine bay can get fucked, but if i used clutch too much clutch would be worn out... all about feel and balance!

[Arustik1]

Originally Posted by BK

You mean into 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th? Feathering is feathering, it wears the clutch some. But unless you mean excessively feathering into gear, it's no big deal. Your clutch isn't meant to be completely on-off binary. To some extent, you feather every time you shift (assuming you aren't racing).

You start dragging out the feathering, and that's when you're wearing your clutch too much. If you're new to MT, it won't take long until you get the hang of doing just what you need for a smooth shift.

I do, do it and I have been driving it for a while so I have it down, but there's always room to learn more. Good looks on the answer, I just wanted to 100% make sure that it won't be harming it because I am learning a lot on this thread!!

[dinkoh]

Originally Posted by orionredwing

Q: On a HARD brake (not slamming the brakes), how many of you guys unintentionally leave your car in neutral because you have the clutch depressed, even though you have moved your shifter to the lower gear?

As I slow down, I usually downshift to go with it, but when I brake hard, I usually have the clutch depressed and end up in neutral. That's because when I brake hard, it's a natural feeling to keep both feet depressed in the same direction (left foot clutch, right foot brake). Your attention is also typically diverted by the traffic situation which caused you to brake hard in the first place.

Me too bro. I hate it.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

+1

"Heel and Toe" is a misnomer that goes back to when the pedals were very far apart.

The real espression should be "left side of right foot, right side of right foot"

CA

Really? I find heel and toe easier to blip? I feel when I "roll" my right side of the my foot might not reach, or the left side might not break enough.

Originally Posted by mantis

no one will know about ur CDV. i'm told (thanks Spool) that you can take it out, remove the valve inside of it with a tip of a pen, then put the same CDV back in

Get that CDV out! Andrewflk replaced my CDV, and shifting is so much better.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Most racing schools and high performance driving schools advocate "trail braking". Obviously you begin to brake before you enter a turn. You should down shift before you enter the turn (while you are braking utilizing the "heel and toe" technique). As you begin to turn and as you are going through the turn ease off on the brakes but do not release them fully. This keeps weight planted on the front wheels and helps the car turn. This technique can "rotate" the car by forcing mild oversteer (trail brake rotation). As you progress through the turn continue to brake and then make a transition to "maintenance throttle". As you exit the turn and the car is pointed into the straight begin to accellerate. At no point should you be coasting, this can upset the balance of the car.

Like that. I'll try that, but I have to master downshifting. I start downshifting way BEFORE the turn...