[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by 335dsleeper

^ thanks. What do you think about the AF and boost pressure x RPM?

I'd like to hear your thoughts and anything DWR has to say/ suggest.

I spent a good part of the day messing with the MBC and WI etc. Not getting the results with the Ebc I was hoping for. Might try one more thing tomorrow befire I install the piggy back.

TDIwyse- what EMP should I target? 50-53psi? Is that where you're seeing the most power?

Yeah, it's too bad the EMP sensor wasn't able to be logged when you were working with Bob. I would've loved to see that relationship. Without seeing the EMP levels I can't make an educated guess. And your system and tune is different than mine, so it may behave differently. I have no experience with the pre-compressor nozzle and how that affects things.

With my system I've seen 2 things that will cause the power output to kind of "flatten" and stop increasing. These are EMP and AFR's. EMP's above ~54 psi seems to limit power. And of course AFR's too low also cause a loss. I just verified this morning that the way I was setting up my system was too aggressive on the fuel for warm/low ambient pressure conditions that spring is now bringing. My whp curve fell dramatically above ~4150 rpm due to AFR's...

In DWR's Advanced Tuning thread I posted a lot of data with IWG vs EWG at various EMP limits when changing the boost controller. On my system higher boost and higher AFR's in the upper RPM's gave lower acceleration/wheel power as measured by PerfExpert. I can get 40 psig at the mid rpm's with good EMP's, but not at the upper rpm's ... I want a bigger turbo compressor with a bigger turbine and hot side...

Attaching some logs of boost/EMP for a couple of the EBC configs where I was holding ~35psig out to redline when the LP turbo comes online. These settings gave the best AFR's, but gave a flat/clipped whp result that was substantially lower than I could achieve with lower boost at the upper rpm's and keeping EMP's below ~54 psig. As long as AFR's don't get too low...

Again, our systems and remaps are different, with different modifications, but in my car the EMP issue is dramatic and measurable, and the EWG helps me get more boost with less EMP as verified by many logs, some done back to back when switching between IWG and EWG.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by 335dsleeper

^ thanks. What do you think about the AF and boost pressure x RPM?

I'd like to hear your thoughts and anything DWR has to say/ suggest.

At this point, Bob knows more about your tune than anyone else. I agree with the dashed AFR target on the graph, when meth is being used. Think about air density and pressure losses from compressor to intake manifold. I'll be publishing something in the advanced tuning thread about evaporative cooling shortly.

[DWR]

Oh, one more thing. Please do some data logging with my Torque PIDs for boost, IAT, EMP, AFR, rpm at the track (or back roads), full load 4th gear, and share it with this forum. The road and the dyno are different under those conditions.

[335dsleeper]

Originally Posted by DWR

Oh, one more thing. Please do some data logging with my Torque PIDs for boost, IAT, EMP, AFR, rpm at the track (or back roads), full load 4th gear, and share it with this forum. The road and the dyno are different under those conditions.

I absolutely will. Having an issue logging with torque lately. I'll post some data as soon as I get it figured out.

[WreckerX5d]

Originally Posted by DWR

At this point, Bob knows more about your tune than anyone else. I agree with the dashed AFR target on the graph, when meth is being used. Think about air density and pressure losses from compressor to intake manifold. I'll be publishing something in the advanced tuning thread about evaporative cooling shortly.

I enjoy reading articles from Professor DWR.

[335dsleeper]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Yeah, it's too bad the EMP sensor wasn't able to be logged when you were working with Bob. I would've loved to see that relationship. Without seeing the EMP levels I can't make an educated guess. And your system and tune is different than mine, so it may behave differently. I have no experience with the pre-compressor nozzle and how that affects things.

With my system I've seen 2 things that will cause the power output to kind of "flatten" and stop increasing. These are EMP and AFR's. EMP's above ~54 psi seems to limit power. And of course AFR's too low also cause a loss. I just verified this morning that the way I was setting up my system was too aggressive on the fuel for warm/low ambient pressure conditions that spring is now bringing. My whp curve fell dramatically above ~4150 rpm due to AFR's...

In DWR's Advanced Tuning thread I posted a lot of data with IWG vs EWG at various EMP limits when changing the boost controller. On my system higher boost and higher AFR's in the upper RPM's gave lower acceleration/wheel power as measured by PerfExpert. I can get 40 psig at the mid rpm's with good EMP's, but not at the upper rpm's ... I want a bigger turbo compressor with a bigger turbine and hot side...

Attaching some logs of boost/EMP for a couple of the EBC configs where I was holding ~35psig out to redline when the LP turbo comes online. These settings gave the best AFR's, but gave a flat/clipped whp result that was substantially lower than I could achieve with lower boost at the upper rpm's and keeping EMP's below ~54 psig. As long as AFR's don't get too low...

Again, our systems and remaps are different, with different modifications, but in my car the EMP issue is dramatic and measurable, and the EWG helps me get more boost with less EMP as verified by many logs, some done back to back when switching between IWG and EWG.

Hey tdwyse,

Thanks for the post. I think you're using boost pressure to operate the wastegate. Have you tried using EMP? Bohl suggested it and I'm thinking about trying it. Thoughts?

Also, do you have any data comparing roll race to standing start race? I'm trying to get my hands on a vbox because, my car seems like it has quite a bit more pull from a 50-80+ roll than it does from a standing start through 80+. I know you have a lot of data recorded. Was wondering if you ever noticed any time or power difference.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by 335dsleeper

Hey tdwyse,

Thanks for the post. I think you're using boost pressure to operate the wastegate. Have you tried using EMP? Bohl suggested it and I'm thinking about trying it. Thoughts?

Also, do you have any data comparing roll race to standing start race? I'm trying to get my hands on a vbox because, my car seems like it has quite a bit more pull from a 50-80+ roll than it does from a standing start through 80+. I know you have a lot of data recorded. Was wondering if you ever noticed any time or power difference.

I started with EWG and MBC (manual boost control) blended with the IWG (internal wastegate), and then no IWG and all EWG (a lot of data and videos in iaknowns wastegate thread), and earlier this year tried EBC (electronic boost controller) with rpm programmable solenoid control to make a bunch of various boost shapes vs rpm, but I've gone back to a simple MBC for the EWG and no IWG. The MBC is able to respond faster to transients and the dramatic change in EMP's at the turbo cross over, and also does a good job of balancing boost and EMP. The balance comes from a blend of EMP acting on the EWG and the boost feedback through the MBC. But the EWG you went with is different than mine, so I'm not sure if my setup would work well on your EWG.

I haven't taken "roll race" data like iaknown and DWR have utilized. After doing dyno sessions on a superflow with several vehicles and comparing that to Gtech data, I started doing onroad tuning with accelerometer based devices, as it gave me great resolution and repeatability to test various mods, when following a specific protocol (same road, same procedure, ideally low wind conditions). From old Gtech data I had posted on bimmerfest many years ago, I don't remember seeing reduction in power output across gears/speed, as long as EGT's and AFR's stayed under control (I wasn't measuring EMP's back then), but the stock and Evolve and Ecotune remaps from that many years ago weren't pushing things as hard with the water/methanol as I've been doing the past couple years with the Ecotune and then with Jarek's remap for the last ~year. I was originally concerned that ~550ml/min was scary levels (even now I'm not pushing as much as some of you guys are doing).


I now use PerfExpert and really like how it will connect with the weather station and download the weather conditions based on cell tower location and will apply any of 5 standard weather corrections. And also allows you to enter your vehicles Cd and Frontal area to account for wind drag. I've found it to be extremely good for repeatability (when following a fixed procedure), which is key for getting useful data. I also like it as I can log data with the Torque app for the same time as the PerfExpert pull, and compare things in a post processing spreadsheet. This is extremely useful for seeing what's going on.

[DWR]

I'm just going to chime in here to say that one of the reasons I really like working with TDIwyse is his disciplined approached. I think we have a similar mind set in that regard. Absolute numbers are not nearly as important as repeatablity.

[335dsleeper]

Originally Posted by DWR

I'm just going to chime in here to say that one of the reasons I really like working with TDIwyse is his disciplined approached. I think we have a similar mind set in that regard. Absolute numbers are not nearly as important as repeatablity.

Absolutely! I couldn't agree more. Working with/ modifying the same platform for 4-5 years helps to get testing, SW and adjustments fine tuned as well, let's not forget that time is a very important aspect in this game...

[335dsleeper]

I logged a few pulls with torque. Boost numbers dont appear to be holding to redline. I might try to use the EWG only and compare the logs. Not sure if I'm getting flutter or if the DDE is opening the gate when it sees something going wrong i.e. EGT or A/F ratio.

Doing a 4th gear pull is a bit problematic as the car tends to downshift as I don't have full manual or DS modes with this TCU. It's rather annoying!

The Carly and torque app is giving pretty high CACT temps too. I'm seeing 100-110* over ambient according to each app. I'm not sure it's an accurate temp though. I don't see how they could be that high with 13gph being sprayed pre CACT sensor. I might try an analog temp prove to see what IATs are in the manifold during a full pull.

The rain delayed further testing yesterday but, I might try and get out there later today to see if i can capture boost/ EMP numbers. So far, I don't think I'm seeing the power restricting EMP's DWR/ TDIwyse often mention, although I assume this is because of boost bleed off up to.

Mtf

[335dsleeper]

I disconnected the IWG and did a few pulls. Car's making more boost and higher EMPs. I'm seeing between 52-56psi now, similar to what TDIwyse has mentioned. Boost levels were higher too with a peak on 40ish. Going to make a few adjustments to include using both top an side port on the external wastegate. This should give me a bit more control over wastegate.

Looking like the weather might break for TnT tomorrow night. If it does, I'll log each pass.

its looking like my Hybrids are nearing completion... hope to have them early next week!

[335dsleeper]

Here's a log few 4th gear pulls today without meth. The external gate is proving to be a little annoying to dial in. Very small adjustments make pretty big differences.

Small turbo will pop the gate open right before the transition to the larger turbo and it seems that due to the rapid spool of the HP turbo, the wastegate adjustments is a bit of a pain. I'm realizing that the HP will cause the gate to open when target boost for LP turbo is set. Meaning, if I try to adjust the gate to keep the HP turbo from opening the gate, the LP turbo will over boost i.e. 40+. If I set the LP boost to desired pressure, 36-38psi, the HP will open the wastegate before the transistion. I'm hoping I'll be able to limit the gate being opened by the HP turbo with MBC re-routing, but not sure yet.

Unfortunately there's a boost discrepancy between my AEM gauge and the OBDII via torque. In car I'm seeing a spike to 40-41psi prior to the HP/LP transition and a max of 39-40psi on the gauge. Torque is reporting 42-43psi and EMPs are through the roof! I assume i need to get boost to 35-36 in car to keep the EMPs in check... but again, the LP will force the gate open, which can be annoying... think leaving a stop quickly and boom, open exhaust. I think re-routing the dump to the exhaust will be necessary for daily driving.

I never coded the transmission when I replaced it. This caused DS and Manual to stop working. DS doesn't work at all and manual is very, very touchy. I really have to ease into the throttle to keep it from downshifting... so, please keep that in mind when looking at the 4th gear logs. In a few logs I was road limited, which forced me to lift before the shift to 5th.

Next issue is CACT temps. They're very high but, I believe that is due to the MAF being deleted. Torque app shows IAT -40* since the MAF was deleted. I tried removing the the DDE signal wires and placing the MAF in the air box to see if I could get the IAT sensor to function but, I didn't have much luck. I can only assume that is why the CACT are so high.

Item of note... CACT is high regardless of WI being sprayed. The attached l4th gear pull log is without water. 1-4th was with water... CACT seems to similar temp range.

I'm also having a challenge getting air fuel to read on torque. It worked once today and then just read 14.48-14.52 for the rest of the day as seen in the log. The second log is has air fuel... it's the only pull I was able to log af. This was a 1-4 gear pull. A/F seems a bit rich at WOT and clears up pretty good going through the gears from a stop...

Any feedback is appreciated.

[Yozh]

Originally Posted by 335dsleeper

Small turbo will pop the gate open right before the transition to the larger turbo and it seems that due to the rapid spool of the HP turbo, the wastegate adjustments is a bit of a pain. I'm realizing that the HP will cause the gate to open when target boost for LP turbo is set.

Perhaps adjusting the rod of the turbine bypass valve to have LP come online sooner may be an idea to try.

[335dsleeper]

Originally Posted by Yozh

Perhaps adjusting the rod of the turbine bypass valve to have LP come online sooner may be an idea to try.

That's an interesting idea. I'll give that a try. Thanks

[shnaggs]

Originally Posted by Yozh

Perhaps adjusting the rod of the turbine bypass valve to have LP come online sooner may be an idea to try.

This ^^^^ this is something I've been wondering about, and trying to get others to do the dirty work for me

[335dsleeper]

^ hahaha

I'll give it a try and post results.

[335dsleeper]

Bohl Stage 3 hybrid turbos arrived today! These are completely custom with much larger hot/ cold wheels installed in the low pressure turbo. LP turbo flows 62lbs of air and should make for a powerful 335d.

Pics and install info to come soon.

[Whitbread]

Originally Posted by 335dsleeper

Bohl Stage 3 hybrid turbos arrived today! These are completely custom with much larger hot/ cold wheels installed in the low pressure turbo. LP turbo flows 62lbs of air and should make for a powerful 335d.

Pics and install info to come soon.

Happen to get the PR specs for the lp compressor? 62lbs is awesome, but only if it can do at least a 3.5-4 ratio for our application at a decent efficiency.

[335dsleeper]

Originally Posted by Whitbread

Happen to get the PR specs for the lp compressor? 62lbs is awesome, but only if it can do at least a 3.5-4 ratio for our application at a decent efficiency.

Well, the hot and cold wheel are much larger than stock. These are the largest wheels that will fit in the stock housings. I believe these are the only hybrid turbos with larger turbine wheels available right now.

Specific questions about pressure ratios or wheel size will have to go directly to Bohl. It's not my place to discuss wheel sizes etc.

I will post install info as well as performance data soon.

[WreckerX5d]

"I have too much horsepower in my car!"
-said no one ever.

I'm eagerly waiting for the results of these. Hybrids or full turbos are my next step...in time they will come.

[335dsleeper]

^ hahahaha exactly

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by 335dsleeper

Well, the hot and cold wheel are much larger than stock. These are the largest wheels that will fit in the stock housings. I believe these are the only hybrid turbos with larger turbine wheels available right now.

Specific questions about pressure ratios or wheel size will have to go directly to Bohl. It's not my place to discuss wheel sizes etc.

I will post install info as well as performance data soon.

Congrats. Glad to see this option available, and looking forward to your progress reports. This is inline with the direction I'd like to go when I get around to upgrading turbo's. Although I'd ideally like something that also included better A/R (the 62 lb/min rating is likely not with the A/R of our turbo's, is it?).

To be fair, it was tuikku and Pro Turbo from Finland who first did this hotside mod, and it's been available to purchase for quite some time now. If you don't mind dealing with international shipping and customs.

Having a US option like this is a good thing for the North American 335d community.