Hybrid Turbo options and comparisons

DWR · 10-15-2016, 09:37 PM

reply to _TB_

Volume control valve increases flow to the pump with reduced duty cycle. So, we are talking about minumum allowed duty cycle at high load. If the LPFP supplies more fuel (higher pressure) to the VCV, the duty cycle will increase for the same rail pressure. We are just putting headroom into the control.

"We have all the information in the file" does not make sense to me. I certainly have not seen the EKP map(s) - just know they are there. Who is remapping the EKP that you are aware of?

zackz · 10-16-2016, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWR

@zackzo (or anyone) do you know how to decode the Bosch pump numbers?
For example, this is a "R90" pump: CR/CP3S3/R90/20-89S

CR is common rail. CP3 is the pump type. Don't know about the "S3".
R is the rotation direction. 90 is volume (ml/rev?).
No idea what the 20-89S represents.

Any cross reference between BMW numbers and Bosch?
Thanks.

90 is approx 900 mm3/rev

Other numbers are for lpfp integrated or not, dimensions, etc...

zackz · 10-16-2016, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _TB_

It depends on the issue you're seeing. My experience (with a different brand car, and the old CP1 pump. If too small injectors are used, the pressure will drop dramatically once you run long opening times. Shorter duration, but bigger flow helps on the pressure drop of the pump.

So small injectors @1800bar = 250 bar pressure drop
larger injectors @1800bar = 175 bar pressure drop

Perhaps the CP3 does not respond in the same manner as it is flow regulated and not pressure regulated?

..but I was running right at the edge of the capabilities with the CP1 pump..

EDIT: We actually got Bosch Motorsport to make a custom pump for us in the end. The lifespan of a CP1 running @1800bar is pretty short..

The CP3 is flow regulated

zackz · 10-16-2016, 02:22 AM

The flow valve is already fully opened when I talk about hpfp limits...

If the lpfp is big enough, upping the regulated low fuel pressure will help a little for sure, but no chance to achieve that with ecu tune only...

_TB_ · 10-16-2016, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zackz

The CP3 is flow regulated

Yes, this is what I wrote.

335dsleeper · 11-23-2016, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zackz

Currently 2~3 for approx 480 hp, but work in progress, so not the final numbers...

Any update on your car or tune?

zackz · 11-23-2016, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 335dsleeper

Any update on your car or tune?

Car goes well, but we are currently trying to bring more fuel (hpfp upgrade)...

zackz · 12-30-2016, 02:27 PM

Hi Guys,

the car is becoming extremely torquey and powerfull, but we are currently fighting against K26 hot side back pressure, which is restricting the performances in the high end area.

It seems that the 286 hp K26 hotside doesn't flow as well as the 272 hp version, even with a custom turbine...

However, the car is at this stage producing from 900 n.m up to 970 n.m of torque between 2000 and 3400 rpm, without smoke

We are now doing few more physical mods to unleash the last potential...

Stay tuned

_TB_ · 12-30-2016, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zackz

However, the car is at this stage producing from 900 n.m up to 970 n.m of torque between 2000 and 3400 rpm, without smoke

H.O.L.Y crap

900+ Nm..

Does it make around 460BHp with the limited flow topend?

When you remap it - what do you do to the HPpump flow map?

thungchoui · 12-30-2016, 04:14 PM

It s my car, amazing torque!

zackz · 12-30-2016, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _TB_

H.O.L.Y crap

900+ Nm..

Does it make around 460BHp with the limited flow topend?

When you remap it - what do you do to the HPpump flow map?

We've got around 1000 n.m on the road (better intake temps with the cold weather), and 475-480 hp, but at an engine speed as low as 3400-3500 rpm....

About the remap I don't give any information I'm sorry, but the remap is nothing without the good engine upgrades.

DWR · 12-31-2016, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zackz

Hi Guys,

the car is becoming extremely torquey and powerfull, but we are currently fighting against K26 hot side back pressure, which is restricting the performances in the high end area.

It seems that the 286 hp K26 hotside doesn't flow as well as the 272 hp version, even with a custom turbine...

Based on pics I've seen, that does not surprise me. One of the reasons I have recommended to others in the States to look at european cores for hybrids.

Yozh · 12-31-2016, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWR

Based on pics I've seen, that does not surprise me. One of the reasons I have recommended to others in the States to look at european cores for hybrids.

Can we determine some part numbers here for the "proper" LP Turbos that are associated with a better flowing versions?

Yozh · 12-31-2016, 01:08 AM

Here is what I have for all the M57 versions. Based on this it is the E60/61 Pre-LCI 535d with LP turbo
11657794572 that is better flowing. Correct? If so, then for US/CA one will not be able to retrofit, unless if it only the hot side, but even then the whole turbine switchover is different and that is part of the hot side. Any comments?

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_TB_ · 12-31-2016, 03:28 AM

There are errors in that diagram. The E90/91 325d does _not_ use 2.5L engine - it is the same 3.0L engine as in the 330d

DWR · 12-31-2016, 11:32 AM

A certain someone will be getting back a hybrid LP turbo from a land far away. Maybe the details will be revealed.

TC-performance · 01-21-2017, 02:16 AM

E90 335D
Hybrid turbos by fb/turbo.lodz
Stock inj system

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNLzplsRgX0

DWR · 01-21-2017, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TC-performance

E90 335D
Hybrid turbos by fb/turbo.lodz
Stock inj system

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNLzplsRgX0

What correction factor is used to get crank HP?

tuikku · 01-22-2017, 06:06 AM

.
1,3ms duration/1800bar rail/3,5bar boost
Gives ~480hp from crank
Unlimited torq ~950nm, or a bit more.

That is the max of stock fuel system with R90 cr pump.
More duration cause that the rail pressure collapses.
I have done these over a year, after I figured out, how the turbo mod should be done ...

Making the program is surely not rocket science
It just that you understand the basics.
Lamda controlled program is quite easy in fact

TDIwyse · 01-22-2017, 06:15 AM

tuikku is back in the house!

tuikku · 01-22-2017, 10:58 AM

.
Thanks

550d gives ~470hp from crank with 3,5bar boost, and ~480hp/3,6bar.
Lamda 1,1
All pollution equipments on and working.
Have not tried higher boosts.

DWR · 01-24-2017, 10:30 AM

Welcome back, tuikku!

Haha, I thought you had given up on BMWs.

10-15-2016, 09:37 PM	#441
DWR Banned 798 Rep 1,633 Posts Drives: 2009 335d Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Maine iTrader: (0)	reply to _TB_ Volume control valve increases flow to the pump with reduced duty cycle. So, we are talking about minumum allowed duty cycle at high load. If the LPFP supplies more fuel (higher pressure) to the VCV, the duty cycle will increase for the same rail pressure. We are just putting headroom into the control. "We have all the information in the file" does not make sense to me. I certainly have not seen the EKP map(s) - just know they are there. Who is remapping the EKP that you are aware of?
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-16-2016, 02:22 AM	#444
zackz Private 21 Rep 64 Posts Drives: 07 M-Tech E92 335D Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: FRANCE iTrader: (0)	The flow valve is already fully opened when I talk about hpfp limits... If the lpfp is big enough, upping the regulated low fuel pressure will help a little for sure, but no chance to achieve that with ecu tune only...
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-30-2016, 02:27 PM	#448
zackz Private 21 Rep 64 Posts Drives: 07 M-Tech E92 335D Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: FRANCE iTrader: (0)	Hi Guys, the car is becoming extremely torquey and powerfull, but we are currently fighting against K26 hot side back pressure, which is restricting the performances in the high end area. It seems that the 286 hp K26 hotside doesn't flow as well as the 272 hp version, even with a custom turbine... However, the car is at this stage producing from 900 n.m up to 970 n.m of torque between 2000 and 3400 rpm, without smoke We are now doing few more physical mods to unleash the last potential... Stay tuned
	Appreciate 3 BionicYeti15.50 kydiesel35166.00 Yozh870.00 Quote

12-30-2016, 04:14 PM	#450
thungchoui New Member 5 Rep 9 Posts Drives: serie 3e91 335d pack M Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: france iTrader: (0)	It s my car, amazing torque!
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12-31-2016, 01:08 AM	#454
Yozh Colonel 870 Rep 2,615 Posts Drives: 2011 335d M-Sport Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Wet Coast iTrader: (4)	Here is what I have for all the M57 versions. Based on this it is the E60/61 Pre-LCI 535d with LP turbo 11657794572 that is better flowing. Correct? If so, then for US/CA one will not be able to retrofit, unless if it only the hot side, but even then the whole turbine switchover is different and that is part of the hot side. Any comments? Last edited by Yozh; 12-31-2016 at 01:19 AM..
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12-31-2016, 03:28 AM	#455
_TB_ Lieutenant 148 Rep 436 Posts Drives: E91 325d Touring Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Denmark iTrader: (0)	There are errors in that diagram. The E90/91 325d does _not_ use 2.5L engine - it is the same 3.0L engine as in the 330d
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-31-2016, 11:32 AM	#456
DWR Banned 798 Rep 1,633 Posts Drives: 2009 335d Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Maine iTrader: (0)	A certain someone will be getting back a hybrid LP turbo from a land far away. Maybe the details will be revealed.
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01-21-2017, 02:16 AM	#457
TC-performance New Member 3 Rep 15 Posts Drives: E60 535D @ 446HP Join Date: May 2016 Location: Poland iTrader: (0)	E90 335D Hybrid turbos by fb/turbo.lodz Stock inj system www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNLzplsRgX0
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01-22-2017, 06:06 AM	#459
tuikku Private First Class 55 Rep 157 Posts Drives: BMW E92 335d Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Finland iTrader: (0)	. 1,3ms duration/1800bar rail/3,5bar boost Gives ~480hp from crank Unlimited torq ~950nm, or a bit more. That is the max of stock fuel system with R90 cr pump. More duration cause that the rail pressure collapses. I have done these over a year, after I figured out, how the turbo mod should be done ... Making the program is surely not rocket science It just that you understand the basics. Lamda controlled program is quite easy in fact
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-22-2017, 06:15 AM	#460
TDIwyse Colonel 614 Rep 2,410 Posts Drives: 2011 335d Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: MidWest iTrader: (0)	tuikku is back in the house! __________________ 2011 335d 11.68 @ 125.71 mph 1/4 mile NHRA certified track Ram Cummins with lots-o-mods
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01-22-2017, 10:58 AM	#461
tuikku Private First Class 55 Rep 157 Posts Drives: BMW E92 335d Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Finland iTrader: (0)	. Thanks 550d gives ~470hp from crank with 3,5bar boost, and ~480hp/3,6bar. Lamda 1,1 All pollution equipments on and working. Have not tried higher boosts.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-24-2017, 10:30 AM	#462
DWR Banned 798 Rep 1,633 Posts Drives: 2009 335d Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Maine iTrader: (0)	Welcome back, tuikku! Haha, I thought you had given up on BMWs.
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