[lionheart]

Originally Posted by nissan

The 30 day return policy, while reasonable on its own, is BS in this context. A merchant can't just inject terms into a sales agreement after the sale has been made. Do these guys live in a hole? Do they not see how other sites are run? Go to any website and check out the help/returns section -- they'll clearly state if there's a time limit. While it's not the case here, what if someone buys this item as a gift, wraps it up w/o opening the box, and waits over 30 days to give it to the recipient? They would never know about the exp. of the return period b/c it was never a part of the original terms.

To stick to such a policy after the customer points out it was never stated prior to sale on the website is complete BS -- esp. where the product's never been used. Anyway, glad to see you got it off your hands. Unfortunate that some companies have no clue re: what customer service is all about even when the co. is wrong.

Have a 335 on order and was on the fence as far as tunning goes...further more I am absolutely stunned that vishnu has allowed this thread to procede....no pun intended....LOL, but on a serious note I will likely NOT purchase a product from vishnu, do in large part to this thread, but even more so do to an issue that seems to occur so often it has become somewhat trivial as to how many "poor customer from vishnu" threads will be on the first page of new post on any given day....

-Nick

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by orientblue3

There is absolutely no point to your response. It in no way contributes to this thread and your reply has no relevance to this situation. So thanks...

I'm not unsympathetic to your situation. But you made your point - over and over again. I got it. I made my point - you missed it. No need to reply. You're welcome.

[OpenFlash]

Hi Guys,
Might as well jump in here. We have a 30 day return policy for unused items. Items returned to us during this time can be subject to a 25% restocking fee. This is clearly stated on the invoice. This is also explained verbally if the question were to arise. In the case of the OP, he ordered both the PROcede and v2 upgrade on Oct. 23rd. He had the PROcede 3 days later. The v2 was to be shipped later as per the back order. He requested a return/refund of the v2 on Dec 28th. Which we did, in full. He requested a return/refund of the PROcede on Jan 2nd which we could not comply with due to being well beyond the 30 day term policy. He then threatened us, through PM, by saying that he would make it his mission to bring us down if we didn't accept his refund. We didn't comply.

Usually, if someone is unsatisfied with things, they are encouraged to contact me directly and I will do what I can to make the customer happy. Even if that means bending the rules a little bit. I've done it before and I'll do it again. But when faced with threats, I don't usually gush with compassion.

Shiv

[waijai]

I think the true measure of a company is not how many happy customers they have, but how many unhappy customers they have. How they deal w/ the unhappy customers is where it counts.

I had an issue with THmotorsports when i was ordering my TurboXS UTEC. They were very slow to respond to my emails and PM's on the forum. I called and spoke w/ Eddie from THmotorsports, and he was not good at calling me back when he said he would. When I left negative feedback to his 100% positive rating on the forum, the same day I get an instant message and email from him wanting to resolve the issue. All of a sudden, he wanted to work things out as to not defame his companies rating. Totally not happy and I would never recommend them to anyone.

As far as the Procede goes. One of my best buds has a 335 and was contemplating a Procede purchase. I will now definitely steer him away from this purchase.

[sambonator]

Shiv: You guys really should have just refunded his 75% to avoid this whole situation, especially since the 30 day return term information was not available to the buyer at the time of purchase. It would have been a win/win situation, with you having 25% of the $1400 ($350?), prevention of this nasty thread, and less ammo for me to bash you with.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by sambonator

Shiv: You guys really should have just refunded his 75% to avoid this whole situation, especially since the 30 day return term information was not available to the buyer at the time of purchase. It would have been a win/win situation, with you having 25% of the $1400 ($350?), prevention of this nasty thread, and less ammo for me to bash you with.

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Hi Guys,
Might as well jump in here. We have a 30 day return policy for unused items. Items returned to us during this time can be subject to a 25% restocking fee. This is clearly stated on the invoice. This is also explained verbally if the question were to arise. In the case of the OP, he ordered both the PROcede and v2 upgrade on Oct. 23rd. He had the PROcede 3 days later. The v2 was to be shipped later as per the back order. He requested a return/refund of the v2 on Dec 28th. Which we did, in full. He requested a return/refund of the PROcede on Jan 2nd which we could not comply with due to being well beyond the 30 day term policy. He then threatened us, through PM, by saying that he would make it his mission to bring us down if we didn't accept his refund. We didn't comply.

Usually, if someone is unsatisfied with things, they are encouraged to contact me directly and I will do what I can to make the customer happy. Even if that means bending the rules a little bit. I've done it before and I'll do it again. But when faced with threats, I don't usually gush with compassion.

Shiv

I don't know the history of the threats issue. That would set me back as well. I'm a little confused (for a big shot according to Law Dude - thanks btw). You say he got a refund on the 28th? , but when asked again 5 days later over a Holiday, you said no? I'm sure I'm missing something because that would make no sense to me.

Shiv, you obviously need to update your policy on your website as I also would not accept being notified of terms on a sale after the sale transaction is complete. With all the backorders, it's not like you wouldn't be able to turn the unit around quickly. I would refund the money, update the website and call it good.

[lawdude]

I did a little research on California law on returns of retail items.

California Civil Code Section 1723

(a) Every retail seller which sells goods to the public in this state that has a policy as to any of those goods of not giving full cash or credit refunds, or of not allowing equal exchanges, or any combination thereof, for at least seven days following purchase of the goods if they are returned and proof of their purchase is presented, shall conspicuously display that policy either on signs posted at each cash register and sales counter, at each public entrance, on tags attached to each item sold under that policy, or on the retail seller's order forms, if any. This display shall state the store's policy, including, but not limited to, whether cash refund, store credit, or exchanges will be given for the full amount of the purchase price; the applicable time period; the types of merchandise which are covered by the policy; and any other conditions which govern the refund, credit, or exchange of merchandise.

(b) This section does not apply to food, plants, flowers, perishable goods, goods marked "as is," "no returns accepted," "all sales final," or with similar language, goods used or damaged after purchase, customized goods received as ordered, goods not returned with their original package, and goods which cannot be resold due to health considerations.

(c) (1) Any retail store which violates this section shall be liable to the buyer for the amount of the purchase if the buyer returns, or attempts to return, the purchased goods on or before the 30th day after their purchase.

(2) Violations of this section shall be subject to the remedies provided in the Consumers Legal Remedies Act (Title 1.5 (commencing with Section 1750) of Part 4).

(3) The duties, rights, and remedies provided in this section are in addition to any other duties, rights, and remedies provided by state law.

If this law hasn't changed, it looks pretty straight-forward. You don't need me to interpret it for you.

[orientblue3]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Hi Guys,
Might as well jump in here. We have a 30 day return policy for unused items. Items returned to us during this time can be subject to a 25% restocking fee. This is clearly stated on the invoice. This is also explained verbally if the question were to arise. In the case of the OP, he ordered both the PROcede and v2 upgrade on Oct. 23rd. He had the PROcede 3 days later. The v2 was to be shipped later as per the back order. He requested a return/refund of the v2 on Dec 28th. Which we did, in full. He requested a return/refund of the PROcede on Jan 2nd which we could not comply with due to being well beyond the 30 day term policy. He then threatened us, through PM, by saying that he would make it his mission to bring us down if we didn't accept his refund. We didn't comply.

Usually, if someone is unsatisfied with things, they are encouraged to contact me directly and I will do what I can to make the customer happy. Even if that means bending the rules a little bit. I've done it before and I'll do it again. But when faced with threats, I don't usually gush with compassion.

Shiv

There you go again, twisting the facts Shiv. At this point, I don't think anyone is shocked that you are twisting things to your favor and side stepping the issue that your customer service is equivalent to nothing. (Giving your customers the cold shoulder after you screwed up is does not count as customer service btw.)

It's sad that it had to come to this. Really, it is. My PM's to Calvin AFTER you told me that you had a 30 day return policy and you were unwilling to acknowledge that the error you made clearly indicated that if you were unwilling to make things right, I would be creating a thread detailing your lack of willingness to work with me on something YOU screwed up on documenting. Heck, that seems like the only way to get you guys ever do the right thing. Call you out on the forums and tell people what exactly your up to. It worked with LambofGod and several others who you refused to help until they documented their orderals on this site. I told you, Calvin and probably Dustin too that you had a chance to make things right and I would continue my support of Procede (remember the days when I used to be all about it and stood up for Shiv when Terry pulled his crap? Yea...those days are long gone, I wonder why?). I even offered to delete this thread after I created it if you were willing to make things right. There were no threats made. Do I need to say that again? I gave you and your company two options to handle this situation. You chose the easy way out and gave me the cold shoulder. Thus, you chose the option in which I would post this thread and comment in any of your threads in which I felt I needed to bring up this thread/situation to the benefit of possible customers to avoid having to go through this whole ordeal and put up with your joke of a customer service department. It looks like this thread has been successful in getting the message out to potential customers. That's the only reason Shiv even posted here because he wanted to try to discredit me in an attempt to get those customers back.

Shiv, my advice to you is to stop working on updates for your product and start working on taking care of the customers who send you their hard-earned paychecks that allow you to drive your Lambo, Porsche, and BMW. Remember....we're paying for them. If you enjoy those things, then I recommend you start thinking long-term about keeping your customers happy rather than coming on here and attempting to discredit/slander them to cover up YOU and YOUR COMAPNIES mistakes.

[trick50]

Originally Posted by Calvin@Vishnu

You created this thread ONE business day after you had PM’d me about the charge made to your credit card. A good way to contact me is through our company email (Calvin@Vishnutuning.com) or our company phone line ((866) 584-7531) and not a public internet forum (it may take up to 2-3 days for me to respond to a PM).

I've already responded to you with our 30 day return policy that is clearly documented on your Invoice (receipt). I apologize if this policy is not documented on our website; however the shipping invoice is documentation for your final sale (like a bill of sale); which states our policy on returns.

Your purchase was made in October which is well beyond the 30 day return policy. The only contact you have made with me regarding a return was on 12/28 via PM on e90post.com

When he originally purchased the Procede he didn't have an invoice. And therefore was basing the return policy on your website. Isn't it a little bit deceptive to sell something on your website stating that you all returns have a 25% re-stocking fee...making no mention of a time limit...then when he gets it the invoice says "oh by the way not only are we taking 25% re-stocking fee but you only have 30 days to return it."

From an outsiders standpoint and point of view...I think it is only fair to honor what was originally posted on your website since that was the only information that he had when making his purchase. If he didn't even use the procede why would he open the box and read the invoice.?

Whatever just my opinion. I have never purchased anything from Vishnu and probably never will just because I have heard too many bad things about procede with limp codes etc. and the poor customer service.

Have a nice day.

[lawdude]

orientblue3 (or anyone else with an opinion):

What would you consider a reasonable time in which to return an item?

P.S. There is no right or wrong answer, as long as you specify a time period.

[ArmyBimmerDude]

Dustin, thanks for the Bypass plugs!


Sorry guys........continue

[orientblue3]

Originally Posted by lawdude

orientblue3 (or anyone else with an opinion):

What would you consider a reasonable time in which to return an item?

P.S. There is no right or wrong answer, as long as you specify a time period.

I don't have an amount in my head, as return policies vary all over the place in length. Heck, go watch some infomercials at 4am. Some of them have as long as lifetime satisifaction guarantees (even after you use the product!). So its really an unanswerable question in my eyes because its so subjective. Regardless of what I think a return policy should be, Vishnu's return policy was not documented properly.

In case my original point got lost in the 100+ replies in this thread, I had no idea they had a 30 day return policy until I tried to return it. Since it was not documented on their website and I had not used the product, I had no idea. I'm not complaining because I want my money back. I'm complaining because I was not notified at the time of my purchase that was the terms of the purchasing agreement that I was agreeing to, and thus I had no idea and no way of knowing through proper means of discovery (i.e. the only place their return policy is listed is on their website and it says nothing of the 30 day policy) that was the time limit I had to work with. If I had known that, I would have made my decision to return it during that time.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by orientblue3

I don't have an amount in my head, as return policies vary all over the place in length. Heck, go watch some infomercials at 4am. Some of them have as long as lifetime satisifaction guarantees (even after you use the product!). So its really an unanswerable question in my eyes because its so subjective. Regardless of what I think a return policy should be, Vishnu's return policy was not documented properly.

In case my original point got lost in the 100+ replies in this thread, I had no idea they had a 30 day return policy until I tried to return it. Since it was not documented on their website and I had not used the product, I had no idea. I'm not complaining because I want my money back. I'm complaining because I was not notified at the time of my purchase that was the terms of the purchasing agreement that I was agreeing to, and thus I had no idea and no way of knowing through proper means of discovery (i.e. the only place their return policy is listed is on their website and it says nothing of the 30 day policy) that was the time limit I had to work with. If I had known that, I would have made my decision to return it during that time.

The return policy is noted clearly on the invoice that you get with your product. Along with all the other legal talk.

Shiv

[Nikolas]

Lawdude's research shows that Vishnu was in violation of not posting their return policy. However it appears California Law only requires them to honor a 30 day return policy if they are in violation of not posting.

[PAKMAN]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Lawdude's research shows that Vishnu was in violation of not posting their return policy. However it appears California Law only requires them to honor a 30 day return policy if they are in violation of not posting.

what are you talking about?

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The return policy is noted clearly on the invoice that you get with your product. Along with all the other legal talk.

Shiv

Shiv your site does show a 30 day return policy. I assume that was updated or the OP has some splainin to do.

[orientblue3]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The return policy is noted clearly on the invoice that you get with your product. Along with all the other legal talk.

Shiv

Shiv, please address this:

One is not aware that they have a 30 day return policy until AFTER they buy the product. Quite decieving as others have stated. This is NOT proper business practice and should be corrected IMMEDIATELY.

Additionally, I bought the product and never used it. Never opened the box, nothing, until I decided to sell it after Christmas. After you had told me you had a 30 day return policy and told me to reference my invoice, after you told me you were unwilling to accept my return, after you said you were unwilling to work with me. So I never even knew there even was a 30 day policy because the box was sealed the entire time! Pretty tough to read an invoice when its inside a box that sits in the corner and never used.

Is that my fault that I never opened the box? Absolutely not. Why not? Because your supposed "return policy" was documented on your site and thus I thought you clearly documented what your return policy was.

Stop side-stepping the issue. Your only making yourself look worse by not addressing the issue head-on.

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by PAKMAN

what are you talking about?

Read Lawdude's research post. All the requirements in that law with regards to posting the return policies would be accessible prior to the purchase and not after the transaction. The law also states that if it is not posted, that the vendor must accept returns up to 30 days from the original transaction.

Either way, the OP has nothing to stand on legally as by law Shiv only needed to honor a return for 30 days. Not that I agree.

[orientblue3]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Shiv your site does show a 30 day return policy. I assume that was updated or the OP has some splainin to do.

See the first page where I took a screen shot of their site. The image is unedited and many other members saw the same thing I did as well. Shiv, has some splainin to do. But I am glad they updated it. Here it is again if your too lazy to go back that far.

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Read Lawdude's research post. All the requirements in that law with regards to posting the return policies would be accessible prior to the purchase and not after the transaction. The law also states that if it is not posted, that the vendor must accept returns up to 30 days from the original transaction.

Either way, the OP has nothing to stand on legally as by law Shiv only needed to honor a return for 30 days. Not that I agree.

I could care less about taking legal action. I chose to take action by making this thread. It does more good by spreading the word of their business practices. That alone will get more done than taking them to court.

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by orientblue3

Heck, go watch some infomercials at 4am. Some of them have as long as lifetime satisifaction guarantees (even after you use the product!).

Don't want to bust your bubble, but those infomercial lifetime guarantees usually say something like "all you pay is shipping and handling". By the time you've replaced all those knives or whatever else is covered under the lifetime guarantee, once you pay the shipping and handling, you've paid for the item.

[orientblue3]

Originally Posted by lawdude

Don't want to bust your bubble, but those infomercial lifetime guarantees usually say something like "all you pay is shipping and handling". By the time you've replaced all those knives or whatever else is covered under the lifetime guarantee, once you pay the shipping and handling, you've paid for the item.

I guess the 25% re-stocking fee is not the same analogy to what you just said? Or are you trying to disprove my point on a technicality where you use "sometimes" the commercials are like that. I think that $341.25 (25% of $1365) plus return shipping to them isn't quite the same as just the nominal return shipping you mentioned above. Additionally, my product was never used. The product you referenced above would be returned used and thus not available for resale as new (like my Procede would have been.) Again, this point you brought up still has nothing to do with the thread. How I feel on how long a return policy should be relates nothing to the facts of this case. Sounds like a great lawyer question to sucker in people to saying, "well I think 30 or 60 days is fine" and then you'd respond with, "well your past 30 or even 60 days, so you really don't have a leg to stand on do you?" Not falling for that, thanks though. If your going to comment, please keep it on topic.