[Jdub679]

So after my alignment, my current toe settings are at about 0.25 deg (total) front and 0.29 deg (total) rear.

I've read repeatedly that most people set their toe at 1/8 deg (total) front and 1/16 (total) rear.

Should I have my toe changed? Thanks all.

[tc535i]

Those are backwards, but yes.

[Jdub679]

Originally Posted by tc535i

Those are backwards, but yes.

Do you mean that the front should be 1/16 deg (total) toe and the rear should be 1/8 deg (total) toe?

[tc535i]

exactly

rear should always have more toe in, this helps keep the car centered at highway speeds. Front needs some toe in for stability, but close to neutral gives you more responsive steering.

[Jdub679]

Originally Posted by tc535i

exactly

rear should always have more toe in, this helps keep the car centered at highway speeds. Front needs some toe in for stability, but close to neutral gives you more responsive steering.

Great, thanks for the quick responses.

More toe usually means more tire wear correct? Mine looks excessive right?

[tc535i]

yes, and yes. very much so.

[Jdub679]

Originally Posted by tc535i

yes, and yes. very much so.

Ok. Just set an appointment to have that re-adjusted. Thanks!

[ajsalida]

I prefer zero toe in front but that's just me.

[tc535i]

Originally Posted by ajsalida

I prefer zero toe in front but that's just me.

That's fine if you have urethane control arm bushings

But with the stock rubber, you get rearward deflection under load when you're rolling. This brings the actual toe very close to zero with the settings I described.

If you set dead zero on the rack, you will realize toe out under rolling load, which will make your car wander left and right. Fine if you're manhandling around a track, but a huge pain on road trips/freeway drives.

[tc535i]

lol

[ajsalida]

Originally Posted by tc535i

That's fine if you have urethane control arm bushings

But with the stock rubber, you get rearward deflection under load when you're rolling. This brings the actual toe very close to zero with the settings I described.

If you set dead zero on the rack, you will realize toe out under rolling load, which will make your car wander left and right. Fine if you're manhandling around a track, but a huge pain on road trips/freeway drives.

That is not my experience (on several BMW McP strut cars) but I also do/did not have stock suspension on any of them. It is slightly more darty but more responsive, nothing scary at all. You would not want to be texting and eating a triple whopper.

[tc535i]

I've gone thru 3 e36's in street/track form. Ran coilovers and a few urethane bushings, but I found that leaving the stock M3 control arm bushings made the car so much nicer on the street and much less nervous on the track. You have to leave some rubber somewhere, and that was the best trade-off I could find.

But like I said, those were trade-offs. These cars got tracked at Willow Springs/Buttonwillow one weekend, and drove to San Francisco or Las Vegas the next. If you're really track oriented, toe-out can be a blast. Just not my cup of tea when I want to hit the cruise control and enjoy the ride.

[ajsalida]

Originally Posted by tc535i

I've gone thru 3 e36's in street/track form. Ran coilovers and a few urethane bushings, but I found that leaving the stock M3 control arm bushings made the car so much nicer on the street and much less nervous on the track. You have to leave some rubber somewhere, and that was the best trade-off I could find.

But like I said, those were trade-offs. These cars got tracked at Willow Springs/Buttonwillow one weekend, and drove to San Francisco or Las Vegas the next. If you're really track oriented, toe-out can be a blast. Just not my cup of tea when I want to hit the cruise control and enjoy the ride.

I would probably agree for most folks. I currently also still have a E36M3 (original owner), set it up at zero toe in front, all stock bushings, koni/eibach pro kit and sway bars. Flipped 96+ strut hats for camber. Fine for me as a mountain & canyon carver and general street car but I am used to it.

[tc535i]

Originally Posted by ajsalida

I would probably agree for most folks. I currently also still have a E36M3 (original owner), set it up at zero toe in front, all stock bushings, koni/eibach pro kit and sway bars. Flipped 96+ strut hats for camber. Fine for me as a mountain & canyon carver and general street car but I am used to it.

sounds like my '95, I love running the flipped hats instead of camber plate. Avoids all the clunks and damage to the wallet!



I was trying to run street tires, but the front set kept losing air (bad bead). Luckily my buddy had some spare wheels around, so he lent me a pair of r-comps to get back out. Basically the automotive mullet; business up front, party in the back. Spent the second half of the day with tons of front bite and none in the rear, so I just ended up drifting Streets of Willow. Definitely worth the price of admission!! lol

[ajsalida]

Cool! Sounds like fun. I wish I lived near a track again...

edit: on the flipped hats, some purists worry about too much caster but I have never had a problem there either. Running about -2.5 deg front camber (on the M3). And on both the cars presently set up with zero toe, no weird tire wear & maybe a tiny bit better gas mileage. e92 is an XI though.

[Jdub679]

Originally Posted by tc535i

That's fine if you have urethane control arm bushings

But with the stock rubber, you get rearward deflection under load when you're rolling. This brings the actual toe very close to zero with the settings I described.

If you set dead zero on the rack, you will realize toe out under rolling load, which will make your car wander left and right. Fine if you're manhandling around a track, but a huge pain on road trips/freeway drives.

Do you recommend 0 or 1/16 front toe with M3 front control arms? Aren't the bushings a little more solid with those?

[tc535i]

Originally Posted by ajsalida

Cool! Sounds like fun. I wish I lived near a track again...

edit: on the flipped hats, some purists worry about too much caster but I have never had a problem there either. Running about -2.5 deg front camber (on the M3). And on both the cars presently set up with zero toe, no weird tire wear & maybe a tiny bit better gas mileage. e92 is an XI though.

you can have caster issues with some 96+ arms, because they run further forward in the wheel well, and if you run oversized tires you can rub the liner

never had that problem on my 95 with 245/40-17s

[tc535i]

Originally Posted by Jdub679

Do you recommend 0 front toe with M3 front control arms? Aren't the bushings a little more solid with those?

anything rubber will compress, so no.

[Jdub679]

Originally Posted by tc535i

anything rubber will compress, so no.

Sorry I must have edited my post just as you were posting your reply. I'm guessing then that you recommend 1/16 deg front toe.

[tc535i]

Originally Posted by Jdub679

Sorry I must have edited my post just as you were posting your reply. I'm guessing then that you recommend 1/16 deg front toe.

yup

like I said, your first post was close, just backwards

[ajsalida]

Originally Posted by tc535i

you can have caster issues with some 96+ arms, because they run further forward in the wheel well, and if you run oversized tires you can rub the liner

never had that problem on my 95 with 245/40-17s

What I meant was 96+ flipped hats on 95, as I am sure you are aware 95 geometry is significantly different. WHen you run the 96+ hats, they sit waaay back inside the strut tower, obviously lot of extra caster. 95 has the offset CA bushings too, so I never wanted to mess with any more of it than the strut hats, and mainly just for camber.

Like you I wanted cheap camber but also street compliance. So many people want to be hardcore and take all the compliance out of their car's suspension, end up with something unpleasant and inappropriate for the street. Done it myself quite a few times, and vowed I'd stop on the e92 & M3 before I got too crazy.

So far so good but then no tracks near by.

[tc535i]

Originally Posted by ajsalida

What I meant was 96+ flipped hats on 95, as I am sure you are aware 95 geometry is significantly different. WHen you run the 96+ hats, they sit waaay back inside the strut tower, obviously lot of extra caster. 95 has the offset CA bushings too, so I never wanted to mess with any more of it than the strut hats, and mainly just for camber.

Like you I wanted cheap camber but also street compliance. So many people want to be hardcore and take all the compliance out of their car's suspension, end up with something unpleasant and inappropriate for the street. Done it myself quite a few times, and vowed I'd stop on the e92 & M3 before I got too crazy.

So far so good but then no tracks near by.

yup

I'm saying flipping 96+ hats on a car with 96+ arms/bushes can rub the fender, and especially if you run 96 arms and 95 bushings

335 is a beautiful daily, plenty of power and silence with the windows up. I did JBS and intakes, spacers to correct the hideous wheel fitment, and that's as far as I'm going. If I wanna beat myself up, I'll drive the M3 around the hellish potholes of Los Angeles!