[mad1stgen]

Having seen and repaired quite a few e9x cars, this left frame horn kink is definitely a result of the even minor bump from the right side into the bumper reinforcement. You can clearly see the whole reinforcement swayed over to the driver side. Frame ends/horns do not offer much in terms of sway resistance. The left horn took all the energy, just in front of the very front subframe bolt.

There is a 2foot section of the rail available from BMW, but replacing it requires subframe removal, and to be honest any shop doing it without engine removal is hacking it, plain and simple.

This car is getting totalled by the insurance company. Don't forget that bank owns interest in it, and in their interest the car would have to be repaired up to industry standards to preserve value. Even then, the dirty carfax will diminish the value substantially. If you owned the car outright, the scenario would be entirely different.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by RNByrd3

I previously discussed with the insurance company that my credit union valued the car at $15,500 just a few month ago. The insurance company told me that they cannot take the CU appraisal into account. This makes absolutely no sense to me.
I also saw that the insurance company has my car listed as an automatic transmission so I told them I want it reappraised. They gave me the constraints of a 100 mile radius for comps, and I challenged them to find a 2011 328xi wagon with manual transmission that is within 100 miles of me.
As far as the frame, it was not measured. I specifically asked the body shop yesterday when I picked the car up. They told me that they didn't bother to measure after seeing the damage.
I've contacted my local BMW certified collision shop and am waiting to hear back.

In all fairness, after seeing the damage, I believe this accident certainly could have caused it.

You said the damage to the other car that hit you was only to the left rear tire. There is no way a boxed steel frame was bent by a transfer of crash energy down the bumper beam to bend that part of the frame and the other car had just a blown tire.

In the few pics you posted, the front wheel turning arc matches perfectly where the frame is dimpled inward. The Carfax reported structural damage to the left front of the vehicle. If the left front wheel was hit hard enough and the front of the wheel pushed to the frame, it looks like it could have damaged the frame in such a manner. For the body shop to not measure the frame to see if it was out of spec tells you they did a substandard job of evaluating the sope of repair. That tells you they do not even know BMW sells sections of the frame rail as replacement repair parts. IMO the repair estimate is completely bogus and the insurance company should start over with a BMW certified collision repair facility to get a correct evaluation.

[RNByrd3]

Originally Posted by mad1stgen

Having seen and repaired quite a few e9x cars, this left frame horn kink is definitely a result of the even minor bump from the right side into the bumper reinforcement. You can clearly see the whole reinforcement swayed over to the driver side. Frame ends/horns do not offer much in terms of sway resistance. The left horn took all the energy, just in front of the very front subframe bolt.

There is a 2foot section of the rail available from BMW, but replacing it requires subframe removal, and to be honest any shop doing it without engine removal is hacking it, plain and simple.

This car is getting totalled by the insurance company. Don't forget that bank owns interest in it, and in their interest the car would have to be repaired up to industry standards to preserve value. Even then, the dirty carfax will diminish the value substantially. If you owned the car outright, the scenario would be entirely different.

I agree that the accident likely caused the damage.
You don't feel that the insurance company would pay for repairs if I can get them to up the valuation and find a repair shop that will complete the repairs for less money?

[AveryD]

[IMG][/IMG]
When I crashed my 1st e90 it was just little front end damage only on the bumper no where else and they still wrote it off 😭 check out the pic

[krhodes1]

Originally Posted by ubersteuer

What company do you use to insure?

Right there in my post - AIG.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by RNByrd3

Okay, so I was finally able to get the car today and was able to snap a few photos prior to it getting too dark. Without further ado...

Originally Posted by RNByrd3

I was wrong about which side the defect was on. I thought it was on the side toward the engine, but it is not. After looking at the damage without the bumper cover, I can see that this accident likely caused the damage.

I can't understand WHY you believe the "Dent" in the LF Frame "tube" was caused by the "alley" collision. I MUST be missing something here (I have NOT read this thread until NOW after posting to it on 11/14). If I AM missing something, please correct me.

Here are the facts as I understand them:
1) In Post #22 you stated: "I turned left out of a small alley and into the path or a car heading in the same direction in which I was turning...My car clipped the rear wheel of his car. The only damage to his car was a large hole in the sidewall of his tire. [HIS Left-Rear tire I presume] I drove the car several times after the accident and it had no change to the drive characteristics whatsoever."
2) So that means that with YOUR car at very low speed, the Right-Front corner of your bumper cover contacted the sidewall of his Left-Rear Tire, BEHIND the hub, as that sidwall was moving UPWARD, thereby LIFTING your bumper cover (and Left Fender Liner) and leaving a large black mark on your white bumper cover as shown in photo in your Post #4.
3) That photo in Post #4 ALSO shows what appears to me to be an "arc-shaped cut" in your plastic bumper cover, inboard of the black mark left by the tire, which is consistent with the edge of his wheel rim contacting your bumper, and you applying brakes JUST BEFORE impact so that you did NOT continue forward into the rear sheet metal or Left-Rear of his bumper cover, with little or no damage to his vehicle other than his tire or wheel rim (slightly scuffed?).
4) There was NO damage to any sheet metal or trim on YOUR vehicle from the "collision" other than to the bumper cover, the Right Front Wheel Liner, and the Right Kidney Grill, at least as shown by any photos I examined.
5) Your photo #5 attached to Post #65 (the one showing the photographer's tan Right Wingtip ;-) copy of which is attached here, clearly shows a DENT in the OUTBOARD side of the LEFT Front Bumper Mount Tube.
6) In examining your photos provided yesterday, I CANNOT see any "BEND" in that "Bumper Mount Tube" or sheet metal "box frame", but rather it appears to ONLY have a dent in the outboard side which MAY slightly affect the SEAM or perhaps at most, a spot weld, where the two pieces of that "Box" are joined at the top of the "Box".
7) The point of the dent is forward of any front suspension mounting point, with the possible exception of the left sway bar bush, and even IF there is ANY Bend in the INBOARD side of the "tube" which causes misalignment of anything FORWARD of the outboard dent, I do NOT see anything that would be affected by such "misalignment" other than perhaps the bumper beam which is mounted on the forward end of the "tube."
8) The only thing I see that suggests any current or "Pre-Existing" damage sufficient to cause an alignment issue is the fact that the INSIDE edges of both front tires appear worn, RIGHT more than Left. That would be consistent with Excessive Positive Toe or "Toe Out."
9) Certainly that tire wear did NOT happen between the time of this LATEST collision and the time the photos were taken?
10) You indicated in Post #38 that the car was involved in a previous collision (Feb. 2019), prior to your purchase in June 2019.

SUMMARY:

I don't mean to appear insensitive to your situation, but it is my intention to simply analyze the evidence you have provided, and give you MY OPINION.

1) The recent "alley" collision causing damage to the RF of your bumper cover did NOT cause the dent in the "Left Front Bumper Mount Tube." Any damage, regardless of how critical or how trivial, to that "tube" pre-existed the "alley" collision. The "Dent" in the upper-outboard section of the "tube" appears more consistent with application of a PRY tool, rather than "impact" from a collision, OR the surface has been repainted to cover any scuff marks resulting from impact.

2) Your LAST photo in the group of 10 DOES show the top-outboard bolt that fastens the RIGHT bumper tube to the Right Bumper Beam is sheared off (both top bolts on LEFT are intact), and the Inboard top nut washer has left a scuff from lateral movement, perhaps from this "Alley" collision, as the scuffs appear "relatively recent" (NO rust), but how much rust might develop between February & November is anyone's guess.

3) I can't tell from your photos, and I have NOT compared other models for similarity, but it appears that the Right bumper beam mount is at more of an angle than the Left Beam mount, but that may be an illusion from angle of photo, OR the way it was designed.

4) If the "dent" was NOT caused by this collision, then the insurer has NO liability for repair of a "pre-existing" condition or damage. It likewise has NO authority to tell you that your car is unsafe or that you MUST repair that pre-existing damage in any specific manner.

5) I fail to see any reason WHY you should NOT simply repair the bumper cover, kidney grill & RF fender liner damage, get a Front Alignment, replace the sheared bolt, and enjoy the car. You DID say that there was NO change in handling characteristics when you drove it AFTER the Collision, so I see NO indication of anything a routine front alignment would NOT correct (have rear checked at same time).

Please let us know what you find,
George

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

I can't understand WHY you believe the "Dent" in the LF Frame "tube" was caused by the "alley" collision. I MUST be missing something here (I have NOT read this thread until NOW after posting to it on 11/14). If I AM missing something, please correct me.

SUMMARY:

I don't mean to appear insensitive to your situation, but it is my intention to simply analyze the evidence you have provided, and give you MY OPINION.

1) The recent "alley" collision causing damage to the RF of your bumper cover did NOT cause the dent in the "Left Front Bumper Mount Tube." Any damage, regardless of how critical or how trivial, to that "tube" pre-existed the "alley" collision. The "Dent" in the upper-outboard section of the "tube" appears more consistent with application of a PRY tool, rather than "impact" from a collision, OR the surface has been repainted to cover any scuff marks resulting from impact.

2) Your LAST photo in the group of 10 DOES show the top-outboard bolt that fastens the RIGHT bumper tube to the Right Bumper Beam is sheared off (both top bolts on LEFT are intact), and the Inboard top nut washer has left a scuff from lateral movement, perhaps from this "Alley" collision, as the scuffs appear "relatively recent" (NO rust), but how much rust might develop between February & November is anyone's guess.

3) I can't tell from your photos, and I have NOT compared other models for similarity, but it appears that the Right bumper beam mount is at more of an angle than the Left Beam mount, but that may be an illusion from angle of photo, OR the way it was designed.

4) If the "dent" was NOT caused by this collision, then the insurer has NO liability for repair of a "pre-existing" condition or damage. It likewise has NO authority to tell you that your car is unsafe or that you MUST repair that pre-existing damage in any specific manner.

5) I fail to see any reason WHY you should NOT simply repair the bumper cover, kidney grill & RF fender liner damage, get a Front Alignment, replace the sheared bolt, and enjoy the car. You DID say that there was NO change in handling characteristics when you drove it AFTER the Collision, so I see NO indication of anything a routine front alignment would NOT correct (have rear checked at same time).

Please let us know what you find,
George

Until the frame is measured on a frame machine and compared to BMW specs, there can be no correct assessment of the repair cost. It is obvious the front bumper section is toast and deformed during the collision as it was designed to do (absorb the crash energy rather than transfer it to the passengers). If the crash energy of the "alley" accident caused deformation of the outer wall of the frame tube, it looks as the torque ended up right on the weakest section of the tube where the manufacturing points are stamped out of the steel. But I would expect BMW designed it that way and provides replacement sections of the frame rail forward of the engine mounts to repair, what otherwise is a good car.

It is obvious the bumper section has moved several inches left and may be stressing the unibody frame. The bumper framing needs to be removed and then measurements of the unibody taken to assess what the correct repair procedure is. Again, with the proper frame straightening equipment I can't see why the damage to the left frame rail can't be corrected to the original factory specifications. The panel gaps between the hood and fenders tells you the frame is not out of spec everywhere.

The unusual tire wear is a concern and it is either a bad alignment job, or the frame was damaged in the previous accident and the front end is effed, and it was only discovered when the "alley" accident uncovered it.

Here to hope that the OP gets justifiably compensated.

[RNByrd3]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Until the frame is measured on a frame machine and compared to BMW specs, there can be no correct assessment of the repair cost. It is obvious the front bumper section is toast and deformed during the collision as it was designed to do (absorb the crash energy rather than transfer it to the passengers). If the crash energy of the "alley" accident caused deformation of the outer wall of the frame tube, it looks as the torque ended up right on the weakest section of the tube where the manufacturing points are stamped out of the steel. But I would expect BMW designed it that way and provides replacement sections of the frame rail forward of the engine mounts to repair, what otherwise is a good car.

It is obvious the bumper section has moved several inches left and may be stressing the unibody frame. The bumper framing needs to be removed and then measurements of the unibody taken to assess what the correct repair procedure is. Again, with the proper frame straightening equipment I can't see why the damage to the left frame rail can't be corrected to the original factory specifications. The panel gaps between the hood and fenders tells you the frame is not out of spec everywhere.

The unusual tire wear is a concern and it is either a bad alignment job, or the frame was damaged in the previous accident and the front end is effed, and it was only discovered when the "alley" accident uncovered it.

Here to hope that the OP gets justifiably compensated.

Thank you guys for all of the thorough examinations and explanations of my situation. I truly appreciate everyone's help in this regard.

I spoke with the BMW certified collision shop, Faulkner Collision Center, this morning and they told me that they would not measure the frame until the repairs have been authorized. They said they'd initially do a "visual inspection" to come up with their estimate and that they have to go off of the original estimate (I'm not exactly sure what that means). I'm waiting for my insurance company to send in an assignment to Faulkner before they can make an appointment for an estimate.

[rjaudi]

Your number 1 goal needs to be getting their value up. I at least see several automatics in your area for 14 to 16k. If they are going to value the car at 11-12k, I don't see how this doesn't get totaled and that is what they will fight for your payout to be.

[RNByrd3]

Originally Posted by rjaudi

Your number 1 goal needs to be getting their value up. I at least see several automatics in your area for 14 to 16k. If they are going to value the car at 11-12k, I don't see how this doesn't get totaled and that is what they will fight for your payout to be.

Thanks so much!
I'm definitely trying to get them to value it higher. As I stated before, they're telling me that the comps that I can show them must be:
1. Same make, model, and year
2. In a 100 mile radius of my zip code
3. Within 50,000 miles of my total mileage

The problem with that is that all of the comps they're showing me are automatic transmissions. When I pointed this out, she said she'd change the criteria and then reappraise it. About a half hour later, she sends me a "reappraisal" with the SAME EXACT comp cars that she sent me before. I ran all 4 VINs and they were all automatics. I responded and told her that I need her to find me manual wagons, not automatics for the comps.
I'm still waiting to hear back...

[Thorin]

Originally Posted by RNByrd3

Thanks so much!
I'm definitely trying to get them to value it higher. As I stated before, they're telling me that the comps that I can show them must be:
1. Same make, model, and year
2. In a 100 mile radius of my zip code
3. Within 50,000 miles of my total mileage

The problem with that is that all of the comps they're showing me are automatic transmissions. When I pointed this out, she said she'd change the criteria and then reappraise it. About a half hour later, she sends me a "reappraisal" with the SAME EXACT comp cars that she sent me before. I ran all 4 VINs and they were all automatics. I responded and told her that I need her to find me manual wagons, not automatics for the comps.
I'm still waiting to hear back...

I had to go through the exact same situation with my Sonic when it was written off (6MT Turbo HB). Each time they came back with the comps, it was non-turbo sedans with auto transmissions- essentially rental car throwaways. Your recourse is to counter with your own list of similar cars (and screw their 100 mile range criteria- 6MTs were not that common), or try an independent appraiser, although they may balk as it is already in an accident. Decide at what point it is your break-even point- the adjuster's goal is to try and save as much money for the insurance company. They will eventually keep sending you the same list (it is auto-generated from a computer valuation program, so they have little control on the results).

In the end if they won't accept your list of comps, you may have to bite the bullet and take what they give you. I asked my agent on what I could do to avoid the same scenario with a rare configuration, and what he told me was akin to what i told you. What he didn't say was "get specialty car insurance with an agreed value", as that would undercut his source of income.

[RNByrd3]

Originally Posted by Thorin

I had to go through the exact same situation with my Sonic when it was written off (6MT Turbo HB). Each time they came back with the comps, it was non-turbo sedans with auto transmissions- essentially rental car throwaways. Your recourse is to counter with your own list of similar cars (and screw their 100 mile range criteria- 6MTs were not that common), or try an independent appraiser, although they may balk as it is already in an accident. Decide at what point it is your break-even point- the adjuster's goal is to try and save as much money for the insurance company. They will eventually keep sending you the same list (it is auto-generated from a computer valuation program, so they have little control on the results).

In the end if they won't accept your list of comps, you may have to bite the bullet and take what they give you. I asked my agent on what I could do to avoid the same scenario with a rare configuration, and what he told me was akin to what i told you. What he didn't say was "get specialty car insurance with an agreed value", as that would undercut his source of income.

Thank you for the very helpful info. It's nice to hear from someone who has had to deal with this same kind of situation.
My end goal is to get the car repaired. I don't care about trying to get the most money out of them for a totaled car, I want the car fixed.
If they value it as it should be valued, then it would no longer be considered a total loss because the cost of repair is way lower than the ACV of the car.

[E91WAG3N]

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2011-bmw-328-30/

Max value for a low mileage example. Best of luck.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by RNByrd3

Thank you for the very helpful info. It's nice to hear from someone who has had to deal with this same kind of situation.
My end goal is to get the car repaired. I don't care about trying to get the most money out of them for a totaled car, I want the car fixed.
If they value it as it should be valued, then it would no longer be considered a total loss because the cost of repair is way lower than the ACV of the car.

Any update there Brother? On Sunday, I just took a good pic of the frame rail in the exact same area; I was replacing my air filter. I'll post it tonight. I still think once the bumper subframe is removed and the unibody is measured, the frame can be straightened to spec without throwing $10,000 at it.

BTY, the rubber isolator for the bottom of your car's airbox is wedged between the frame and AC hydraulic lines; it's that round piece with the center hole and 8 holes in it. It mounts to the serrated stud on top of the the frame right where yours is kinked. The isolators get stuck to the bottom the airbox and the drop off when you pull the box out.

[RNByrd3]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Any update there Brother? On Sunday, I just took a good pic of the frame rail in the exact same area; I was replacing my air filter. I'll post it tonight. I still think once the bumper subframe is removed and the unibody is measured, the frame can be straightened to spec without throwing $10,000 at it.

BTY, the rubber isolator for the bottom of your car's airbox is wedged between the frame and AC hydraulic lines; it's that round piece with the center hole and 8 holes in it. It mounts to the serrated stud on top of the the frame right where yours is kinked. The isolators get stuck to the bottom the airbox and the drop off when you pull the box out.

I'm having my insurance agent help me fight this battle, and he seems to be on board with me.
I'm awaiting a call from the BMW certified body shop to schedule an appointment for an estimate once they receive an assignment from my insurance company.
Thanks for the heads up on the rubber isolator, I picked that up and put it with the rest of the parts after taking those photos.
I'll definitely keep making updates to this thread as I find out more.
Thanks again!

[Maestro]

Op, I'm in PA as well, I believe in PA you have a right to use an independent issuance adjuster if you disagree with insurance company's appraisal. Since it sounds like you have an insurance agent, it sounds like your working with real insurance company verse these low cost internet insurance companies. Your agent should be able to help you. I know my state farm agent has always helped me get the best deal even fought to make sure the repair shop use OEM parts when the repair shop was allow to use non OEM and junk yard parts.

[bsmoov]

Originally Posted by RNByrd3

Finally got the valuation of the car. Definitely undervaluing it. They claim that they used similarly spec'ed cars in PA, but I really doubt they found any manuals in that equation.

Hey there, I'm in the same boat and they're lowballing me far worst than you I believe. Same valuation company and it you look on the report, it shows the comparables and what they're equipped with.

None of the four comparables they provided had a manual transmission. All were automatics.

What are you doing now? I've even provided them my comparables with manual transmissions that meet their criteria, but they're ignoring it.

[RNByrd3]

Originally Posted by bsmoov

Hey there, I'm in the same boat and they're lowballing me far worst than you I believe. Same valuation company and it you look on the report, it shows the comparables and what they're equipped with.

None of the four comparables they provided had a manual transmission. All were automatics.

What are you doing now? I've even provided them my comparables with manual transmissions that meet their criteria, but they're ignoring it.

I'm still waiting for the insurance company to send an assignment to my local BMW Certified Collision Center so I can get a second opinion on the damage to see if it can be fixed on a frame table, as others have suggested it can be, without the added expense of removing the engine. I also have my local insurance agent helping me out, so I'm hoping he can talk to his connections at the insurance company to get the car valued as it should be.
Good luck to you. I'll definitely update this thread as I find out more, and I'll let you know how I did it if I'm able to actually save the car from salvage.

[Igor_M5]

Why not let them total it, according to their figures, you should be able to buy this car back from them for under $2k... get it repaired, pass salvage inspection, and be back in the road again, with no debt to a CU...

My only heartbreak for this whole situation is one less Clean Title E91 on the road, but according to your CarFax, this E91's faith was sealed before you even took possession of it. Your E91 with the previous accident on record of structural damage places you right in the ballpark of what the insurance is actually willing to pay you out, not the BAT evaluations you keep looking at (all those examples have squeaky clean reports).

As long as you're able to buy the car back, having a higher damage estimate only plays in your favor, not the the insurance provider.

[RNByrd3]

Originally Posted by Igor_M5

Why not let them total it, according to their figures, you should be able to buy this car back from them for under $2k... get it repaired, pass salvage inspection, and be back in the road again, with no debt to a CU...

My only heartbreak for this whole situation is one less Clean Title E91 on the road, but according to your CarFax, this E91's faith was sealed before you even took possession of it. Your E91 with the previous accident on record of structural damage places you right in the ballpark of what the insurance is actually willing to pay you out, not the BAT evaluations you keep looking at (all those examples have squeaky clean reports).

As long as you're able to buy the car back, having a higher damage estimate only plays in your favor, not the the insurance provider.

How would I have no debt to the CU? I still owe them for the car, so as far as I know, any payment from the insurance company would go directly to the CU to satisfy the loan. I owe more than what the insurance company is offering, so GAP insurance would cover that portion.
I'd happily buy the car back and have it repaired, but I don't see how it's possible with the amount I still owe on it.

[Igor_M5]

Originally Posted by RNByrd3

How would I have no debt to the CU? I still owe them for the car, so as far as I know, any payment from the insurance company would go directly to the CU to satisfy the loan. I owe more than what the insurance company is offering, so GAP insurance would cover that portion.
I'd happily buy the car back and have it repaired, but I don't see how it's possible with the amount I still owe on it.

Insurance pays you, not the bank... you pay the bank, buy the car back from insurance....

[RNByrd3]

Originally Posted by Igor_M5

Insurance pays you, not the bank... you pay the bank, buy the car back from insurance....

According to my insurance company, any money paid on a total loss first goes to the lien holder listed on the title, then any money left over goes to me. The CU is on the title as the lien holder until the loan is paid in full. Since I owe more on the car than the insurance company would pay, if the car is a total loss, then the loan would be paid off by GAP insurance, but I would definitely not be getting any money back. The car would be off to salvage before I'd have the opportunity to buy it back.