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      07-20-2018, 11:39 AM   #485
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I'm not okay with wasting a 1/2 billion - that can come from your tax bill.

If the member nations donwhat they agreed to, we might be able to ratchet back our military spending and leave it to them. We also have less chance of getting dragged into a war by a nation that doesn't have skin in the game.
I'm not OK with wasting any money. The fact that you see NATO as a "waste" is somewhat telling, though.

The point isn't that NATO spending isn't a problem, or that the NATO members shouldn't be paying their fair share. I agree with both of those positions.

The point is that this is a case study in making a mountain out of a molehill. Much bigger fish to fry. Choose whatever cliché you prefer.

As to "ratcheting" down our spending - even if we spent $0 "on NATO", we'd still be spending $686 BILLION dollars on defense.

Again, if you think that spending changes because Luxembourg, Belgium and Spain increase their defense spending by ~1% of their GDP you are completely out of touch.
Or.... if NATO members spent what they should be spending on their own defense, we wouldn't need to spend what we spend in their absence - how do you not get that? For example, if a no-fly zone has to be enforced, who do you think is going to enforce that, if these countries haven't bought planes, etc?

And - Trump's point about Montenegro was very insightful. If Montenegro picks a fight with Russia (or any other NATO country), we get dragged into it, and will fund the entire effort with our dollars, and perhaps our blood. Do we really want to put our dollars and blood at their disposal?
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Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I'm not okay with wasting a 1/2 billion - that can come from your tax bill.

If the member nations donwhat they agreed to, we might be able to ratchet back our military spending and leave it to them. We also have less chance of getting dragged into a war by a nation that doesn't have skin in the game.
I'm not OK with wasting any money. The fact that you see NATO as a "waste" is somewhat telling, though.

The point isn't that NATO spending isn't a problem, or that the NATO members shouldn't be paying their fair share. I agree with both of those positions.

The point is that this is a case study in making a mountain out of a molehill. Much bigger fish to fry. Choose whatever cliché you prefer.

As to "ratcheting" down our spending - even if we spent $0 "on NATO", we'd still be spending $686 BILLION dollars on defense.

Again, if you think that spending changes because Luxembourg, Belgium and Spain increase their defense spending by ~1% of their GDP you are completely out of touch.

And - Trump's point about Montenegro was very insightful. If Montenegro picks a fight with Russia (or any other NATO country), we get dragged into it, and will fund the entire effort with our dollars, and perhaps our blood. Do we really want to put our dollars and blood at their disposal?
Do you really believe that's insightful??
Really?
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      07-20-2018, 11:44 AM   #486
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I have been meaning to ask Lups what the general impression of the folks living in Finland was of the actual show in Helsinki?
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      07-20-2018, 11:52 AM   #487
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There are new details of the meeting - how do you like this turn?

Putin proposed referendum in Donbass.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...aine-at-summit
Wait, now we are hearing from/trusting Russian unnamed sources?????

(Not that I think Russians are any better/worse than any other nationality, per se)
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      07-20-2018, 11:53 AM   #488
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I have been meaning to ask Lups what the general impression of the folks living in Finland was of the actual show in Helsinki?
We all hate the city but we still agree not to let Trump in again. We are not fans of people who let Putin fuck with tiny folks.
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      07-20-2018, 12:28 PM   #489
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I heard a very insightful comment about how some EU countries in NATO are thinking about dropping out because they are afraid that Surinam might pick a fight with the US. We all know how aggressive they are over there and that it's not ludicrous at all to even contemplate that it would ever happen.
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      07-20-2018, 12:46 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Or.... if NATO members spent what they should be spending on their own defense, we wouldn't need to spend what we spend in their absence - how do you not get that? For example, if a no-fly zone has to be enforced, who do you think is going to enforce that, if these countries haven't bought planes, etc?
How much have we spent in the last 3 administrations doing any of the above?



Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
And - Trump's point about Montenegro was very insightful. If Montenegro picks a fight with Russia (or any other NATO country), we get dragged into it, and will fund the entire effort with our dollars, and perhaps our blood. Do we really want to put our dollars and blood at their disposal?

"If Montenegro picks a fight with Russia...." Holy fuck, you're serious with that aren't you? A country smaller than the city I live in is going to pick a fight with Russia. GTFOH
In 2011 NATO established a no-fly zone over Libya. The US flew 20% of the sorties, at a cost of $900M. The US also covered the Bosnia NATO project for about $3B, and sent 27,000 troops.

The point about Montenegro parted your hair, as it flew over your head.
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      07-20-2018, 12:52 PM   #491
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Mueller is the leading Witch Hunter...

And My point is that Obama and the Dems did nothing when fraud was right in front of their faces. It's only when Trump won that they have launched a #resist campaign, and this is just one facet of it. We even have dem congressmen advocating for impeachment, without any charges whatsoever.

Nothing burger.
Patently false.




...He said his bosses at the NSC — he did not specifically mention Rice in his testimony — had concerns about "how many people were working on the options" so the "decision" from his superiors at the Obama White House was to "neck down the number of people that were involved in developing our ongoing response options."

Daniel added that "it's not accurate to say that all activity ceased at that point." He and his staff "shifted our focus" to assisting state governments to protect against Russian cyberattacks against state and local election systems.

But as for his work on developing cyber deterrence measures, "those actions were put on a back burner and that was not the focus of our activity during that time period."
...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/obama-cyb...204935758.html
Did you read what you posted? The Dems did nothing, when they knew about it:

"Instead, Obama officials chose another course of action after becoming frustrated that Republican leaders on Capitol Hill would not endorse a bipartisan statement condemning Russian interference and fearful that any unilateral action by them would feed then candidate Donald Trump's claims that the election was rigged. They chose a private "stern" warning by Obama to Russian President Vladimir Putin at a summit in China in early September 2016 to stop his country's campaign to disrupt the U.S. election."

It's a testament to dumb-assery.

And clearly they did nothing, as evidenced by Hillary, Obama, and the DNC continuing to operate unsecured servers with classified material.

Astonishing.
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      07-21-2018, 04:21 AM   #492
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https://hillreporter.com/putin-says-...ummit-4097/amp
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      07-21-2018, 01:49 PM   #493
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Ugh The good news is the Senate has to provide consent to any treaties that trump instigates. Whether they will or not remains to be seen.
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      07-21-2018, 03:42 PM   #494
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If True, I can't imagine him wanting or winning reelection
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      07-21-2018, 04:00 PM   #495
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If True, I can't imagine him wanting or winning reelection
That's the thing, without note takers he can pretty much claim anything! What is why going to do, issue a statement?

"No, president Putin did not have sex with a horse in the middle of the nice meeting!"

The damage is done.
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Last edited by Lups; 07-21-2018 at 05:13 PM.
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      07-21-2018, 04:02 PM   #496
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If True, I can't imagine him wanting or winning reelection
That's the thing, without note takers he can pretty much claim anything! What is why going to do, issue a statement?

"No, president Putin did not have sex with a horse in the middle of the night meeting!"

The damage is done.
Do he offer to share the horse? Or does this really belong in the chicken sex thread?
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      07-21-2018, 04:39 PM   #497
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Do he offer to share the horse? Or does this really belong in the chicken sex thread?
Hahaha!

The point is that the wh can't run around making statements, so Putin is winning big this round too. That's how he rolls.
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      07-21-2018, 04:58 PM   #498
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Hahaha!

The point is that the wh can't run around making statements, so Putin is winning big this round too. That's how he rolls.
Is Putin tired of winning?
(Does that sound familiar?)
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      07-21-2018, 05:00 PM   #499
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We signed the treaty in 1994 (Budapest Memorandum) encouraging Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons. In the event that they did, which they did, we would protect them. UK also signed it. Trump just giving away Crimea and part of eastern ukraine is a big big deal and makes him a giant pussy.
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      07-21-2018, 05:09 PM   #500
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We signed the treaty in 1994 (Budapest Memorandum) encouraging Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons. In the event that they did, which they did, we would protect them. UK also signed it. Trump just giving away Crimea and part of eastern ukraine is a big big deal and makes him a giant pussy.
Don't worry. All the people in the neighboring countries for Russia are feeling safe still, except for the panicking Baltic countries, Finland, Poland and some few others, but definitely not many!
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      07-21-2018, 05:11 PM   #501
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      07-21-2018, 05:14 PM   #502
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I rated that 4/5. I didnt feel the love story.
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      07-21-2018, 05:44 PM   #503
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Wow...you gotta admit I really called that one!

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...6&postcount=12
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      07-21-2018, 05:47 PM   #504
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I know the Trump supporters are actually seething at Trump over how he sold their country out. They are in a really awkward spot. Admit their supreme leader screwed them and go against their months of blowing him, or admit the truth that the man who they threw their support behind is at worse compromised by Putin and the Russians or at best totally weak.
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      07-21-2018, 05:54 PM   #505
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That is indeed the crux of the matter; the fail at Helsinki was because: 1. he either is totally compromised by the Russians helping him get elected or 2. he caved because he is weak.
What else could it be?
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      07-21-2018, 06:03 PM   #506
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That is indeed the crux of the matter; the fail at Helsinki was because: 1. he either is totally compromised by the Russians helping him get elected or 2. he caved because he is weak.
What else could it be?
He is afraid of those violent, aggressive montenegrians? They keep causing so much trouble, everybody says so!
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