[John 070]

Originally Posted by TXAutoLaw

It's not just the German companies. The Japanese companies and American companies do as well. Don't forget though, you're dealing with the US entities of any manufacturer when it comes to warranty issues. The foreign entities do not get involved with that.

There's a certain attitude at some makes, however. Like when I drove into the Jaguar dealership with my 335i. Jaguar does not make a 6 cyl. car for lowlifes like me. When I told the old man (looked like the mgr) that I was here to test drive the new XJ (Dec 2010) and get my free Odyssey White Ice putter, he said, "Nobody here can help you with that." LOL I told him here, you sign it, you can help (just to get a rise out of him). Mind you this was 10 am on a weekday, 3 sales people standing around doing nothing with no customers. One guy came over and asked me to have a seat, and came back 15 min. later. That's just plain arrogance--and they deserve the poor economy and their poor sales numbers. Kinda karma. And I got my free putter.

[halfmonkey]

Originally Posted by gatoman39

You think BMW's service is bad. You aint seen nothing yet.

If service is your main priority, then the rings are not the best route to go. IMO, Lexus is the best at service quality. Most of their cars leave room for improvement when it comes to the sporty nature of them but it seems that Lexus is working on that as evidenced by the newly introduced GS. Hopefully, the updated IS will carry the momentum and make many more improvements. I'm also hoping Lexus adds more sporty models such as a sporty SUV instead of the soft-roader RX, truck based GX and LX. They need something to compete with the X5, Cayenne, and even FX.

Good luck with the rings as it sounds like you've already made the switch.

[BimmerRob]

Scottsdale BMW got a pretty good rating at dealer rater...shall we change that?

GL OP.

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by 335ikiller

Looks like the story is up on Jalopnik now:

http://jalopnik.com/5873397/did-a-de...-dangerous-bmw

Congrats arguru. Now it begins.

And don't listen to people that say you blew up the chance for amicable resolution because you publicized it. That's just corporate bullying.

PS. I do wish there was a mention of the fact that you have active steering in that story. Oh well.

[BimmerRob]

+1 on Lexus service quality. Had an '06 IS 250 for 110k miles and all I did was change the oil and sparks before it got repo'd. Performance was a little beige though and the steering was numb, but still it ran fine.. not crisp, but it ran.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by halfmonkey

If service is your main priority, then the rings are not the best route to go. IMO, Lexus is the best at service quality. Most of their cars leave room for improvement when it comes to the sporty nature of them but it seems that Lexus is working on that as evidenced by the newly introduced GS. Hopefully, the updated IS will carry the momentum and make many more improvements. I'm also hoping Lexus adds more sporty models such as a sporty SUV instead of the soft-roader RX, truck based GX and LX. They need something to compete with the X5, Cayenne, and even FX.

Good luck with the rings as it sounds like you've already made the switch.

We all love BMWs, but not the co. We obviously love the product enough to put up with lousy customer service. Can you imagine what would happen if Lexus delivered in the performance dept.? The new GS costs 47k, I dunno, seems like you have room for 7k worth of options to equal a 335. yet I thought the GS is more comparable to a 535.

[MDyDinanM]

OP

Good luck in this case. This is yet another story of a Dealership acting badly.

Also, in regards to BMW NA (not saying it is wrong or right), but they are a franchise. They usually don't care what dealerships do since all they do is allow the license for them to sell and service their cars. I haven't really seen, or heard rather, where BMW NA stepped in to help a owner out. Just wanted to point that out to keep that in perspective.

This reminds me of the case were Autobahn Ft Worth in Texas wrecked a M5 owners car on a joy ride. Dealer and BMW NA didn't help. Dealer tried to cover it up, lied, then ignored the owner. The owner took the dealer to court and won. At least that one had a happy ending. It took almost a year to resolve though, but the owner stuck it out and proved to the Dealer that he had the will and resolve, and wasn't going to be treated like the "little guy".

You can read the lengthy story here:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...16-months.html

Basically, since posting it on the internet, like yours, it went viral. I'm sure Autobahn BMW has lost sales and customers. When you do a search for them on Google, the story is right there next to the dealership's link on google. The M5board forum community also chipped in in making this story publicized.

Needless to say, the M5 owner has a bad taste in his mouth and BMW has lost a customer.

Your story is like deja vu all over again.

A shame really. All this could have simply been rectified by the dealer fixing the issue on the spot. I'll never understand why Dealers chose to fight the simplest of things with their skewed version of "principle" when simply helping a customer would earn then dividends and loyalty in the long run.

I know you've stated all you want is an answer, but you're not going to get one unless you get a lawyer. As far as their concerned, they don't have to answer to anybody legally, unless they are forced too. They will keep ignoring you.

[TXAutoLaw]

Originally Posted by mdyaman

OP

Good luck in this case. This is yet another story of a Dealership acting badly.

Also, in regards to BMW NA (not saying it is wrong or right), but they are a franchise. They usually don't care what dealerships do since all they do is allow the license for them to sell and service their cars. I haven't really seen, or heard rather, where BMW NA stepped in to help a owner out. Just wanted to point that out to keep that in perspective.

BMWNA is not a franchise. BMWNA is an LLC, which is the US entity of the parent corp., BMW AG.

[MDyDinanM]

Originally Posted by TXAutoLaw

BMWNA is not a franchise. BMWNA is an LLC, which is the US entity of the parent corp., BMW AG.

thanks for the correction. I know BMW NA is an entity of BMW AG.

But what about the dealership themselves? BMW NA doesn't own them. Other automotive groups do. Curious how the business relationship is since BMW NA doesn't take responsibility for the actions of local dealerships

[NewNole2001]

Reading that M5 case and looking at how this case is progressing make me feel lucky for how well the Ford dealership I bought my current car from has treated me. Sales and service, I haven't had a single bad experience with them.

Now FoMoCo and their warranty company, that's a different story. But even in that case, the dealership stepped up when FoMoCo wouldn't. Hopefully, I won't have to find out how the BMW dealership here in Tallahassee deals with this type of situation.

For those wondering, the Ford dealership in question is not in Tallahassee. The Ford dealership in Tallahassee has a sales department that took one look at me (24 at the time) and decided I couldn't afford the car I wanted to buy (2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid). But hey, they lost me as a customer for all but one oil change and a hybrid brake issue that my dealer didn't have the proper equipment to diagnose. So, their loss.

/end threadjack

[undecided]

Also, if the active steering has issues, it would be more prevalent since its widely used in the 5 series. Also, BMW's can throw spurious errors when there are underlying electrical issues. It's very possible that the car may have thrown different codes the first time around. Of course, the dealership or bmwna should provide the output of the 1st scan to quiet this. If they don't, then they look guilty. Btw, for the record,I've owned many BMW's and have always been treated fairly by the dealers and bmwna so I may be a bit biased.

[TXAutoLaw]

Originally Posted by mdyaman

thanks for the correction. I know BMW NA is an entity of BMW AG.

But what about the dealership themselves? BMW NA doesn't own them. Other automotive groups do. Curious how the business relationship is since BMW NA doesn't take responsibility for the actions of local dealerships

Either auto groups or individuals. BMWNA doesn't own the dealerships, but they can surely request the dealerships make repairs if they are going to foot the bill for them.

[networkn]

Originally Posted by Propagator

Post #1: Asking the OP for the exact terms of resolution.

Post #2: Denying any affiliation with BMW or Penske, by saying, and I quote, "that's what happens when you set out to publicise a problem by posting it on various sites on the Internet".

Hi,

I think this thread is getting a little hysterical, not OP, but many people since.

Calmer heads need to prevail here, rampaging isn't going to help too much or provide a constructive path forward. People need to read what they are reacting to, multiple times, and give themselves a 5 minute break before hitting the post button on what they write in my opinion.

I myself, have been following this thread and have often wondered what it was that the OP wanted, asking for a clear and concise goal for the OP isn't suspicious, it's been missing and now it's not.

Second point above is a language misunderstanding. Initially when I read it I did get the same impression, but I re-read it, and I believe the correct interpretation is that he is suggesting that making a public posting of the issue is done to draw attention, and his attention is a direct result of the public posting. I don't think there is anything sinister about it.

I think it's time for everyone involved to take a deep breath. Perhaps if the OP modified his OP to include what he wants in a bullet pointed list, by way of resolution, then it will save him and everyone else repeating themselves over and over.

This thread is losing it's credibility because people aren't keeping cool focus on what the end result should be.

Even if someone here is from Penske, BMWNA or any other involved organization, they have as much right to be here as anyone else, and all dialog is still dialog, and without it, the issue will not be resolved.

[TXAutoLaw]

Based on my analysis, arguru was merely being informative of his experience to the forum. I thought that was the point of these forums. As for the all the conjecture, that's always going to take place when people are free to type as they please. It's probably best that the intelligent people ignore those with less than brilliant posts.

[335BBS]

Originally Posted by networkn

Hi,

I think this thread is getting a little hysterical, not OP, but many people since.

Calmer heads need to prevail here, rampaging isn't going to help too much or provide a constructive path forward. People need to read what they are reacting to, multiple times, and give themselves a 5 minute break before hitting the post button on what they write in my opinion.

I myself, have been following this thread and have often wondered what it was that the OP wanted, asking for a clear and concise goal for the OP isn't suspicious, it's been missing and now it's not.

Second point above is a language misunderstanding. Initially when I read it I did get the same impression, but I re-read it, and I believe the correct interpretation is that he is suggesting that making a public posting of the issue is done to draw attention, and his attention is a direct result of the public posting. I don't think there is anything sinister about it.

I think it's time for everyone involved to take a deep breath. Perhaps if the OP modified his OP to include what he wants in a bullet pointed list, by way of resolution, then it will save him and everyone else repeating themselves over and over.

This thread is losing it's credibility because people aren't keeping cool focus on what the end result should be.

Even if someone here is from Penske, BMWNA or any other involved organization, they have as much right to be here as anyone else, and all dialog is still dialog, and without it, the issue will not be resolved.

I agree 100%. Arguru needs to give us a brief recap. There are 3 sides to every story and everyone here knows about 1/2 of one.

[PostModernHero]

Originally Posted by Leaker

Arguru needs to give us a brief recap.

No he doesn't. If you need a summary, the Jalopnik article is as good as any. If anyone is that interested, they can go back and read the thread in it's entirety. /

[networkn]

Originally Posted by Leaker

I agree 100%. Arguru needs to give us a brief recap. There are 3 sides to every story and everyone here knows about 1/2 of one.

It's been done, and done, and done. Nothing further needs to be added in my opinion until developments occur.

[nbkkvv5]

Originally Posted by PostModernHero

No he doesn't. If you need a summary, the Jalopnik article is as good as any. If anyone is that interested, they can go back and read the thread in it's entirety. /

+1
If anything its time for arguru to get legal representation and let his lawyer subpoena Penske Automotive for all written and electronic records relating to this issue. They are a big corporation and there’s no way they will ever release information to arguru directly.

[Sam335ix]

How about a thread on tape version of the even op for people that can't read lol

[stefan]

Originally Posted by nbkkvv5

+1
If anything its time for arguru to get legal representation and let his lawyer subpoena Penske Automotive for all written and electronic records relating to this issue. They are a big corporation and there’s no way they will ever release information to arguru directly.

Yup.. there's really no point questioning it. If the guys at Loomis can confirm the date which the codes were thrown in the OBDC, and it's before when the car was taken to the dealership, then there's nothing to debate. That car never should have left the shop without repair. Period.

[cjg]

Originally Posted by Jalopnik

I call BS. I work on these for a living. Have for 15 years. Lets get this out of the way, I may work for BMW, but I am no way in their corner for several reasons. Yes, a 335 has many demons, and is infact a pile, but not suspension wise.

This is impossible. First off, the steering is not electric/mechanical like an infinity, it is regular old steering shaft/hydraulic assist.

Warnings come on for any number of reasons. His story doesn't state what specifically it was for, but there is no warning for your steering coming apart causing you to crash. even if the engine dies, you will still have steering. Complete electrical system failure, still have steering. Car full of strippers, still have steering. Even if there was a fault in the DSC stability control BEFORE the accident, it would never cause an accident, it has a fail safe, and, has no control over the actual steering. of the car, let alone physics.

This is a BMW, and as a BMW, it has severely over built suspension pieces, it is the last thing that they haven't screwed up. These parts, do not fail. The lower lateral arm will bend completely into a "U" shape and still not break. The tie rods only snap when the car impacts a curb, pole, tree, etc at high speed, but up until that point, they are designed to bend to absorb an impact, and keep the steering intact some what.

IMO this guy crashed his car, and is trying to pin it on BMW and the dealer as an easy out. I would LOVE to inspect this car, as would any other tech, for any other line that can see right through this. BMW takes customer complaints like this very seriously. BMW actually has someone who goes to dealers and inspects cars in these cases. BMW and Penske's lawyers will make short work of it, but in all reality, they will settle, and he will get money just because its easier to make it go away, which is sad.

I tend to agree with this. Has anyone every tired to drive without using the steering? Much less on the highway? If the connection to the wheels failed arguru would have crashed and burned. Lets all come back to reality for a minute.

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by networkn

Even if someone here is from Penske, BMWNA or any other involved organization, they have as much right to be here as anyone else, and all dialog is still dialog, and without it, the issue will not be resolved.

You misunderstand the situation. If someone comes in OPENLY as a representative of BMWNA or Penske, I'm sure none of us will have a problem with having a reasonable discussion with them. I for one would welcome such an involvement.

The reason that I pushed Dick Jones for his motive and identity is because I felt that he was operating under an agenda that he was not upfront about. Afterwards, as you may or may not have seen, others have googled out information that strongly suggests he is a young lawyer that is likely in some ways connected to the dealership. Since then, he has disappeared from this thread.

You can choose not to believe any of this, and that is fine. I myself am not 100% convinced that arguru's story is true either. However, I do not agree that I was being hysterical or irrational for suspecting our friend Dick to be having a hidden agenda.