[beemerbird]

Hi Carlos - I knew that and believe me it was very funny & you are obviously game for a laugh

[mjh93sa]

Originally Posted by beemerbird

...

I bet some sad tosser has a video of checking tyre pressures (Not you Carlos)

We could always arrange that at the next meet

[Cafe.Racer]

What wheels did the SE have on? Yours are the 18's aren't they?

[mjh93sa]

The SE was running the standard 17" jobbies.

[Evil Diesel]

Originally Posted by beemerbird

Were you awake when you typed the above - check the spelling

I bet some sad tosser has a video of checking tyre pressures (Not you Carlos)

Always check when cold, and overfill should be avoided at all times otherwise you get that rock hard, fit to burst sensation. The apparel is optional.

Sorry teacher - I must try harder. Clearly in need of more coffee.

[keithIOW]

Originally Posted by mjh93sa

The SE was running the standard 17" jobbies.

is this the reason why you claim that the 'The SE by contrast rolls more and does not feel as stable at speed or in a cross wind'

The wheel/tyre combination can affect the handling/ride quality equally as much as the difference between sport/non-sport suspension.

Having driven a 325 se with the standard 17" wheels and mine having 19s (but the suspension being the same), the difference if ride qualty was very noticable, i.e. the ride on my car was a lot firmer.

At the end of the day, the only meaningful differences between the sport and SE models are the suspension (ignoring wheel/typre choice) and the seats. The other differences are pure asthetics.

[Evil Diesel]

The other main difference is the forecast depreciation rate. Made a massive difference to me in lease costs.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

Carl,I don't think anyone is suggesting that the SE is a lesser model then the M Sport,that is simply not the case.

I think it obviously is the case that the SE is a lessor model than the M-sport. Just as the ES is a lessor model than the SE

The M-sport model is an upgrade. It's more expensive because it has some fancier bits.

In the case of the m-sport though, the value of the 'upgrade' is debatable and I quite understand why a lot of people don't think it's worth it.

Obviously, if you don't want the msport kit you won't pay to upgrade.

[dxb335d]

NFS, people will spec a M-sport and not alot else.. Which will make it far less of a desirable car than an SE with all the toys AND engine.

[mjh93sa]

Originally Posted by keithIOW

is this the reason why you claim that the 'The SE by contrast rolls more and does not feel as stable at speed or in a cross wind'

The wheel/tyre combination can affect the handling/ride quality equally as much as the difference between sport/non-sport suspension.

Having driven a 325 se with the standard 17" wheels and mine having 19s (but the suspension being the same), the difference if ride qualty was very noticable, i.e. the ride on my car was a lot firmer.

At the end of the day, the only meaningful differences between the sport and SE models are the suspension (ignoring wheel/typre choice) and the seats. The other differences are pure asthetics.

Impossible for me to say I'm afriad. Without trying an SE with 18" wheels I have no proper direct comparison. However, as each car was riding on the standard wheels I feel that it is a valid comparison.

Originally Posted by needforspeed

...
In the case of the m-sport though, the value of the 'upgrade' is debatable and I quite understand why a lot of people don't think it's worth it.

Obviously, if you don't want the msport kit you won't pay to upgrade.

I was in exactly that quandry when choosing the MSport, it did seem a tad expensive when first looked at. However, as I decided that I wanted the sports seats, steering wheel, shortened gear stick and sports suspension it suddenly wasn't that much of a jump and so I went for it.

[mjh93sa]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

NFS, people will spec a M-sport and not alot else.. Which will make it far less of a desirable car than an SE with all the toys AND engine.

So what about an MSport with toys?

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by mjh93sa

So what about an MSport with toys?

Yes it would = a very nice car.. But there are too many of them on the road. can never tell whats what untill you see the rear!!
See an SE with 230's you can garuntee without seeing the rear its a 335

[mjh93sa]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Yes it would = a very nice car.. But there are too many of them on the road. can never tell whats what untill you see the rear!!
See an SE with 230's you can garuntee without seeing the rear its a 335

Can't you put the 230's on a four cylinder then?

To be honest my choice was a 335d SE without toys or a 330d MSport with toys. I can't use the power of the 330d all the time, let alone a 335d, but I use the seats and steering wheel, HiFi, Xenons and so on everyday.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

NFS, people will spec a M-sport and not alot else.. Which will make it far less of a desirable car than an SE with all the toys AND engine.

I suppose you could look at it differently if BMW sold M-sport as an upgrade pack rather than a separate model (like Audi do with 's-line'), in which case you might value other options more than the m-sport.

As it is ... given their decision to sell them as seperate models, you can't really say that the SE isn't a 'lessor' one.

That said, the upgraded kit you get with the msport isn't that special and if you don't like it, for the money staying with an SE makes a lot of sense.

[Hotcoupe]

needforspeed Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotcoupe
Carl,I don't think anyone is suggesting that the SE is a lesser model then the M Sport,that is simply not the case.

I think it obviously is the case that the SE is a lessor model than the M-sport.
The M-sport model is an upgrade. It's more expensive because it has some fancier bits. Exactly
In the case of the m-sport though, the value of the 'upgrade' is debatable and I quite understand why a lot of people don't think it's worth it.

Obviously, if you don't want the msport kit you won't pay to upgrade.

Based on pound notes,yes the SE is a lesser model,but intrinsically they are the same car,same engine,same suspension (apparently),same gearbox?,same size wheels (apart from upgrade) Etc.

Cosmetically they are different yes,and that's where the pound notes come into play.

[Z4 Beemer]

Originally Posted by mjh93sa

Can't you put the 230's on a four cylinder then?

Yes, I actually just did at lunchtime - a 320d SE with same wheels as the Carlosmachine. It had the standard seats (leather) but no idrive. The 19" wheels as an upgrade on my 325i SE were something like £1200 I think.

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

Based on pound notes,yes the SE is a lesser model,but intrinsically they are the same car,same engine,same suspension (apparently),same gearbox?,same size wheels (apart from upgrade) Etc.

Cosmetically they are different yes,and that's where the pound notes come into play.

Quite correct - for the 335 models, the MSport is a cosmetic enhancement, both externally and internally. Mechanically, the SE and MSport models are the same, in that both use the same gearbox, suspension, rollbars, bushing etc.

[Nohedes]

Interesting thread and a good write up, thanks mjh93sa

My 2p worth - I don't think the sports seat side bolsters are inflatable (as they are on an M5) they can just be adjusted in/out. Also, I'm on my second E60 now and haven't ever experienced a ride that could be called plush!! Having said that, my fisrt E60 was an SE with optional sports suspension (note it is called sports suspension on the price list for E60) and my current car is an E60 M-Sport. The M-Sport handles MUCH better than the SE I had and even manages to ride better and tramline less despite being on 18"s rather than 17"s and both on the same tyre brand.

I appreciate that this doesn't mean the same for E90/1/2/3 but thought it worth mentioning.

I considered a 335d SE instead of the 330d M-Sport I ordered (and get on Tuesday!) but mine is a company car, hence I am not allowed too many options and the M-Sport comes with the things I wanted already included (alcantara seats, big wheels, body kit etc.).

Cheers

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

Based on pound notes,yes the SE is a lesser model,but intrinsically they are the same car,same engine,same suspension (apparently),same gearbox?,same size wheels (apart from upgrade) Etc.

Cosmetically they are different yes,and that's where the pound notes come into play.

Yep .. aside from the sports suspension (which certain SE's have anyway) it's all entirely cosmetic.

So technically, the SE is a lessor model - just not much less.

Personally I would have wanted the following options anyway:

1. Sports suspension
2. Anthracite headliner
3. M-sport wheel
4. M-sport gearstick
5. Sports seats with alcantara

If you want those things M-sport is pretty good value. If you don't then obviously it isn't.

[Hotcoupe]

needforspeed Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotcoupe
Based on pound notes,yes the SE is a lesser model,but intrinsically they are the same car,same engine,same suspension (apparently),same gearbox?,same size wheels (apart from upgrade) Etc.

Cosmetically they are different yes,and that's where the pound notes come into play.

Yep .. aside from the sports suspension (which certain SE's have anyway) it's all entirely cosmetic.

So technically, the SE is a lessor model - just not much less.

Personally I would have wanted the following options anyway:

1. Sports suspension
2. Anthracite headliner
3. M-sport wheel
4. M-sport gearstick
5. Sports seats with alcantara

If you want those things M-sport is pretty good value. If you don't then obviously it isn't.

So how 'technically' is the SE a lesser model then?
I'm referring strictly to a SE 335D against a M Sport 335D.

We have agreed that the engine is the same,as is the gearbox,as is the suspension,as are the standard wheels etc.

Perhaps you could technically spell out the reasons why the SE is a lesser model,apart from paying extra for cosmetic enhancements.

I'm assuming your 'technically' refers to pound notes,and your lesser model theory is based purely on cosmetics, and someone paying more for intrinsically the same car.

I drive an M Sport and still don't get your theory!

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

So how 'technically' is the SE a lesser model then?
I'm referring strictly to a SE 335D against a M Sport 335D.

We have agreed that the engine is the same,as is the gearbox,as is the suspension,as are the standard wheels etc.

Perhaps you could technically spell out the reasons why the SE is a lesser model,apart from paying extra for cosmetic enhancements.

I'm assuming your 'technically' refers to pound notes,and your lesser model theory is based purely on cosmetics, and someone paying more for intrinsically the same car.

I drive an M Sport and still don't get your theory!

I think you are attributing the wrong meaning to my use of the word 'technically'. What I meant was that the SE's status as a lessor model was a 'technicality' arising from BMW's model structure.

BMW have set out the model range, in order of increasing price and (alledged) 'quality' of standard equipment as ES, SE then Msport.

So it's an absolute fact that, in the eyes of BMW at least the SE is a 'lessor' model.

However, since all the cars are the same in terms of the mechanical bits - with the exception of the sport suspension. It is only lessor in the sense that the equipment levels are arguably less good than the msport.

A lot of people don't agree with that, because they don't like the msport kit, but in the end it's the way BMW have structured things.

One thing I would say is that it's not purely cosmetic. The alterations to the 'touchpoints' - sports seats, steering wheel and gearstick also improve the experience in a tactile way.

[dxb335d]

How much did everyone pay for the 335d then, SE or M sport.