[ezmaass]

The best way for this to get resolved is to get the magazines to start publishing the facts. It doesn't only have to be car magazines either. There are other journalists who are interested in such stories.

- Money and Finance magazines are often interested in stories on return on investment and long-term "investment" and "ownership" issues.

- Consumer Reports is another way to go -- they're fairly level-headed and unbiased from what I can tell.

- In the NY Metro area, "7 on Your Side" or whatever it's called is one of the local TV news stations that often takes issues on just like this one.

- Law Periodicals

- The National Association of Consumer Advocates (www.naca.net) has a network of lawyers that take on consumer advocacy cases. I spoke with a lawyer from their network in the past about an auto-related case and they were very helpful. This is EXACTLY the type of case they take on. If enough people contacted them about it, I think it would draw attention... or rather, you can search their website and settle on a single lawyer to contact for EVERYONE and each person can pile on to the case. I think it would only take a single letter from a lawyer to BMW NA saying, "I have 100 135i/335i/535i owners here with this issue..." to get their immediate attention.

Anyway... my take is that progress here will be through publicity, but it needs to come through authoritative channels. Protests will look silly and get chalked up to "those crazy consumers." Details, with measurable performance changes, coming through respected periodicals, and legal requests will create an impact.

[iScream]

Originally Posted by RBBMWE46M3

They said that they could not file a complaint because my state does not comply with the BBB...WTF?

Maybe it's because I sent the NJ BBB's site. Assuming you are in IL or IN, try this link:

http://evansville.bbb.org/

When I search for BMW North America in their search form, the first result is the NJ HQ. You can use the "File a Complaint" link on the front page of the site above.

[BmwFanFL]

Great ideas on the publicity on all fronts.

The 335 is often a first BMW. Any negative publicity - magazines, tv, etc., will get attention at BMW. Car sales are in the toilet these days and Audi, Volvo, Lexus, Mercedes, Porshe, and others would all love to get a second look by prospective BMW buyers and BMW knows it.

IMO, a well placed article, moderately publicized 'lag-fest' or lag-protest,' etc. would all get BMW's attention. Maybe a tee-shirt...

A class-action threat might work, but I'm not optimistic on that front (happy to be shown to be wrong though).

What the tv-viewer writ-large thinks of BMW owners is irrelevant, if this got real coverage, there would be clips on youtube, etc. This will affect 335i sales.

Unfortunately, as others have suggested, reduced performance for a second or two on 40-60K cars just doesn't strike most people as a rational problem. This makes it hard to get the coverage in any venue. The magazines are mostly advertising vehicles for the auto makers, and hence won't be aggressive in covering this topic.

Consumer reports, bbb, little-larrys-car-info-site, and others might be helpful.

Although I'm still pre-lag (not updated yet, but dying HPFP), I highly appreciate all the efforts to get this resolved. I know, eventually, I'll get a screwy light, left turn signal failure, or something else that requires introduction of lag.

This issue, and the anti-tune stance of BMW, has switched me from enthusiasm to a 2 year wait until my wife is ok with me buying another car (paid cash, but just can't take the hit too soon). The stereo also sucks -- even with all options. (I'd prefer mark levinson)

I'll break down and tune with JB3 or something one of these months and may get excited again. I just worry that 2 days after installing it, my car will die from an UNRELATED problem on the highway and create tons of hassle.......

[tyler9595]

Originally Posted by BmwFanny

"....IMO, a well placed article, moderately publicized 'lag-fest' or lag-protest,' etc. would all get BMW's attention. Maybe a tee-shirt...."

FINALLY!!! One of us is using their brain!!!

That's a great idea! "Lag-Fest '08". We can have live music, bbq and beers and give away t-shirts that say "I got OWNED by a Smart car!"

[Josephkao]

Will the new software detect SSTT??

[Quisp]

Stressdoc, I was not able to get that link to work.

It was interesting to read the one SA thoughts as to what is going on and that BMW is working on it and this is just a band aid.

I am more of the opinion that BMW is going to let this go and move forward. Kind of forget the mess and go to the 09s. Similar to a windows program,. They are working on the newest one yet they havent got the old one to work right.
Cost and risk analysis would probably favor that as well when you weigh in the negative publicity about the engine and then their handling of the situation. That would almost be worse than the engine problem when you think about how it would affect future sales and any new engine releases. People would just have to think about the last new engine BMW put ou and how well it worked
Maybe if we contact the magazines that did the original testing and said how great it was and suggest an pdate test. Give them the notion that they would be breaking a very big story in the auto industry. I know we have doine this already but add something about the magazines credibility slipping because they are not giving the current car buying public the latest news about the car. The people looking at these cars now need to know the truth and not base the purchase on a two or three year old report from them. They will buy it and then the magazine looks bad for recommendiong a bad car. Suggesting maybe they should do a follow up test to show they are true journalists that support their readers and auto enthusiasts and not corporate suckups.
Just a thought.

[ToddPhilly]

Have any of you sent letters to Roundel? That could be a good way to get the eyes of more BMW enthusiasts and executives on the issue. These are the types of items Roundel loves to include in their publishing!

[ezmaass]

Todd,

I've had some conversations back and forth with the editor at Roundel. My first e-mail was met with great skepticism, but he agreed to look into the problem. He let me know that they have a 335i in the garage and the necessary skills on-site to look into it (I had offered my car up as a pre-29.2 example if they needed it).

After going to my dealer yesterday and getting some very interesting feedback from the Service Controller on the issue, I updated Roundel on that as well. I haven't heard back on that last e-mail now.

I'm honestly not sure if they'll run with this story or not. They seem skeptical right now, and rightfully so since there's a lot of cr@p on the Internet. However, in one of his e-mails back to me he mentioned the HPFP fiasco, so that's a sign to me that he recognizes that it's not a far cry from a possible reality.

Now if they find out it's TRUE, will they do a story on it? That's a whole other issue. Will any of our Service Advisors or personnel at BMW who are "in the know" comment openly? Without a bulletin, I somehow doubt it. If you were in their shoes, would you? Ethically you might want to, but in a hard economy (and getting worse), these comments could mean your job if published with your name next to them. So, if Roundel (or any other magazine) decided to go forward on this story, they'd have to do enough testing to build an air-tight case. That also means reaching out and touching enough owners. My dealer was SHOCKED to learn there was a 100-page thread on this site with dozens of impacted owners. They've only personally seen a few impacted cars, so although they were aware of it, it appeared like a much more remote issue to them.

For you guys that ARE impacted, I'd absolutely encourage you to reach out to Roundel and let them know. I'm one guy -- and my car isn't even impacted yet. It would mean a lot more to hear from the masses of you guys who have already been updated and are now suffering through this thing. I've been writing to Satch Carlson there (satch@satch.us).

BEFORE YOU WRITE -- I'll warn you, again. He's skeptical of an "Internet Frenzy." I wouldn't take offense to the skepticism since these guys probably hear ALL SORTS of stories from BMW owners who have a one-off issue with this or that. I'd politely write and include only the FACTS of your story. Try to keep the opinions and conspiracy stuff (like "BMW is trying to cover up...") OUT of it. If you start to sound like a conspiracy theorist, most journalists will tune out very quickly. If you present only the facts and make no assumptions on the underlying story, they'll usually embrace it much better.

If you have specific SA contacts at your local dealership, I'd send along the contact information for your dealership and SA in your e-mail. This would go a long way in "verifying" your story. If you have copies of invoices from BMW showing your ECU software was updated, I'd scan and attach those as well. Anything that lends credibility and factual evidence to your story will help. Anything that appears to be rumor, speculation, or finger-pointing at BMW will likely HURT the case.

The point is, we can talk about this forever on a board -- and everyone expects that the "next guy" is going to pick up the phone or write about it. I know a lot of you have, and you got no replies. Well this guy at Roundel appears to actually be listening, albeit skeptically, but he's listening. It's now up to all of us in this community to take some action and start feeding the data to them. Again, notice I said the DATA... facts. It'll only take one or two of you who start ranting and raving with conspiracy theories and "loose" facts to turn these guys off from a story. So keep it level-headed and factual. Remember, from THEIR side they have a reputation to keep. They can't risk running a story that potentially places huge blame on BMW if they suspect there's more emotion and frenzy than fact to the story. It's their reputation and livelihood on the line.

Let's make the best of this opportunity. If you guys would like to send me your stories/data/etc through private message, I'd also be happy to pass it along. However, I think it would make a stronger statement coming from each of you individually.

[ezatnova]

A shame it was such a quick blurb of this guy's writeup. Anyway, I PM'd him and asked him to come over to this thread and elaborate a bunch.

Anyway, here you go:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177069

[Cobu]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

A shame it was such a quick blurb of this guy's writeup. Anyway, I PM'd him and asked him to come over to this thread and elaborate a bunch.

Anyway, here you go:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177069

I had a conversation w/my SM yesterday about V31 and the response was pretty much the same we've already seen here - we have it but it has issues and we do not install it. It has no DME update. When I get a new s/w version I'll let you know and you can have it installed. There is nothing we can do in the meantime and oh by the way - the lag is really not that bad?!?
I suppose he and the BMW NA fundamentally do not understand that the only opinion I care about as to how bad the lag is, is MINE. The FACT which they seem to be forgetting when talking to us is that the lag EXISTS and that it did NOT exist prior to virus 29.2.

Also, I hope that your guy w/4 posts and weird pictures of a 328 loaner is telling the truth about getting v31 and having the lag time reduced ... it just sounds little fishy to me

[Prof3ssor]

That guy is a muppet but he did make me laugh by posting pictures of his loaner car.

[RBBMWE46M3]

[homerunball]

This is what I wrote to the guy at Roundel:

I got your contact information from a forum member who is also aflicted with the same problems as a lot of us have.

I understand that a lot of misinformation surrounds this situation, however, I will only state the facts based on my personal experience.

I am a solo liscensed driver at my local race track and I've been tracking for over a decade with all of my cars. I'm also an aerospace engineer and routinely maintain and build cars as a hobby. I am very sensitive about the way my cars operate and I am very much in tune with all the mechanicals on with my vehicles.

My car is a Feb. 07 build picked up in Europe. The car came equipped with the factory oil cooler. The car had pre progman 29.2 when it was delivered and I loved it. After a routine service visit and an update to the DME, I immediately noticed the exhaust sound to be louder even before getting in the car. As the mechanic was pulling my car out, I could distinctly notice a difference in sound. This is not a slight difference, but a very noticable change. This is obviously louder because the wastegates are wide open.

On the road behavior was an even bigger shock. Before the DME update, the throttle response was very linear, smooth and immediate. The first thing I noticed post DME update was that the response was not immediate. Aside from all the internet misinformation, when I mash the throttle (in any gear) at low RPM's (like 1500 to 2500) I feel a slight surge, then a rush of boosted power. Before, it was just the rush of boosted power at the moment the throttle input was made, now there is a definate delay before the boost kicks in. It is difficult to explain but as an engineer and a driving enthusiast, I can explain it as such: The initial surge is from the naturally aspirated state and the delayed boosted surge is the time it takes for the opened wastegate to close and then produce boost. It is a repeatable pattern of throttle response. Before the update, the motor felt always under boost; now there is a second or two delay before the boost kicks in.

I've even driven the 335i on the track under the no-boost condition (limp mode) with the wastegates wide open. When the car is in limp mode, the throttle response is great, just like a naturally aspirated BMW. There is a huge handicap of power without the turbo's but the response is there and it feels even more responsive with respect to throttle inputs. I strongly suggest anyone to drive (if possible) the 335i under limp mode and see what real throttle response feels like. Again, I'm talking about throttle response, not power. Just like all the other BMW's I've owned, the throttle response is immediate and under that severly handicapped limp mode condition, it is actually easier to push around the track.

I know that turbo cars cannot replicate the response of an NA motor but the pre 29.2 progman did a very good job of masking that surge of boosted power into a nicely linear push from initial throttle application. Post 29.2, all the linear power and smoothness is still there, just that there is a delay before it starts. This is why a dyno cannot replicate this problem on paper. You cannot plot throttle response behavior. The same power, the same boost, and the same smoothness is there as before at the same RPM, just not immediate. It takes a little time when your foot hits the floor to when the car starts to boost. The only way I could imagine this being recorded would be on a very sensitive low capacity dyno. The dyno graph may show a slight wave at the very beginning of throttle application, then shoot up whereas pre DME update would show the graph shooting up without a little hickup wave on the graph.

On the real world, if two cars (one pre 29.2 and one post 29.2) were to mash the throttle at the same speed, same RPM, the pre 29.2 car would inch ahead during the time the post 29.2 car would take to close the wastegates and then both cars would accelerate the same way ending up with the pre 29.2 car slightly ahead. This is the ground gained from the time it took the post 29.2 car to close its wastegate and produce that smooth surge of power.

Some people say that it does not happen after 3k RPM's but it is there at all RPM's, just not as noticable because at 4.5k RPM's the transition between the NA portion and the boosted condition is slightly shorter due to many reasons I'm sure everyone already knows. The NA portion is making good amount of power at 4.5k and also at such high engine speeds the boost will build much quicker than at 1.5k so the delay is shorter but it is there. It is always there at all RPM's.

Thanks for reading and hopefully something can come of this.

You can contact me anytime for further information if you wish.

[stressdoc]

Originally Posted by Quisp

Stressdoc, I was not able to get that link to work.

Link fixed.

[iScream]

You know, since BMW claims to not know what caused The Lag in the first place, perhaps they could have accidentally fixed it in v31.

BTW, a recent PM reminded me of an experience I had a couple months ago. I started my 335 and some weird message came up on the iDrive screen saying that my car desperately needed service or something. Then, all the iDrive functions stopped working properly and my date/time reset to 00:00. The car drove fine, and in fact, I could have SWORN that it eliminated The Lag until the next time I started the car. It makes me wonder if there is some sort of default state (like safe mode) that these things can revert back to, which does not have the 29.2 tune. It could also have been because I did not drive it very far -- a couple of miles -- before restarting it, but usually I get The Lag within about one or two minutes of startup.

Note: This was not limp mode. I've experienced limp mode before, when my HPFP went bad. It was a different error message.

[stressdoc]

Asking for the turbo lag Progman problem to be fixed is great.

Going out of one's way to derogate BMW, such as saying slanderous things about BMWs to potential buyers, seems counterproductive and dishonest to me.

[clivem2]

Originally Posted by iScream

You know, since BMW claims to not know what caused The Lag in the first place, perhaps they could have accidentally fixed it in v31.

BTW, a recent PM reminded me of an experience I had a couple months ago. I started my 335 and some weird message came up on the iDrive screen saying that my car desperately needed service or something. Then, all the iDrive functions stopped working properly and my date/time reset to 00:00. The car drove fine, and in fact, I could have SWORN that it eliminated The Lag until the next time I started the car. It makes me wonder if there is some sort of default state (like safe mode) that these things can revert back to, which does not have the 29.2 tune. It could also have been because I did not drive it very far -- a couple of miles -- before restarting it, but usually I get The Lag within about one or two minutes of startup.

Note: This was not limp mode. I've experienced limp mode before, when my HPFP went bad. It was a different error message.

Maybe the car was stuck in cold running mode? It's very possible that BMW simply added a piece of code that is conditionally called, ie:

IF US_CAR THEN RUN HOBBLE_IT

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Asking for the turbo lag Progman problem to be fixed is great.

Going out of one's way to derogate BMW, such as saying slanderous things about BMWs to potential buyers, seems counterproductive and dishonest to me.

Eh. They'll reap what they sowed. What's slanderous and dishonest to me is I paid $50,000 for a car that doesn't perform as promised and I'm being fisted and made to like it.
Until they make me whole again, I'll sting them any and all ways possible.

If I see someone pissing on my doormat, I'm not going to keep asking nicely that they clean it up after I ask them once and they say "nah, it's fine that I'm pissing on your doormat!". I'm going to kick them squa' in the nuts.

Also, slander implies a sense of non-truth. Me yelling that my car is a POS and costs me a lot time and money to keep driving to the dealer (not to mention lost productivity at work with all the dealer trips and calls to BMWNA) is nothing but pure truth.

[Cobu]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

Eh. They'll reap what they sowed. What's slanderous and dishonest to me is I paid $50,000 for a car that doesn't perform as promised and I'm being fisted and made to like it.
Until they make me whole again, I'll sting them any and all ways possible.

If I see someone pissing on my doormat, I'm not going to keep asking nicely that they clean it up after I ask them once and they say "nah, it's fine that I'm pissing on your doormat!". I'm going to kick them squa' in the nuts.

Also, slander implies a sense of non-truth. Me yelling that my car is a POS and costs me a lot time and money to keep driving to the dealer (not to mention lost productivity at work with all the dealer trips and calls to BMWNA) is nothing but pure truth.

[**335i**]

this going really nowhere, maybe its time to close this thread

[clivem2]

Originally Posted by **335i**

this going really nowhere, maybe its time to close this thread

The problem is that no one has any news. We've not even heard from Pavel about his lag returning and what seems like wrecked wastegates.

No news from BMW about your dyno graph?

100th page!

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by **335i**

this going really nowhere, maybe its time to close this thread

BAN

Seriously, STFU. All you do is whine each day that this thread is going nowhere. It's been SIX DAMN MONTHS and it's going to be MONTHS MORE before we can even hope for a fix. Do us all a favor and just stop looking at this thread, and then you won't have to be so friggin concerned that it's not going anywhere.