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      10-19-2016, 04:26 PM   #45
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[quote=insanecoder;20730621]Of course they would say that..
there is no real way to replay history.
However the Luftwaffe was split .. the large majority of its force was in the Eastern Front tasked with establishing air superiority and ground support.
The wings on the Western Front were tasked with Defense of the Reich campaign ie.. air defense against bombers.
The US/UK faced the smaller forces mustered by the Luftwaffe.. it never faced its best units nor its full brunt.
The Nazis had their hands full in the Eastern Front.. prior to the war many German pilots were training with Russians in the schools in Lipetsk. The Russians were by no means bad airmen.. no not much is ever touted of the Russian role in WW2.. propaganda.

Sources, please. I don't want a flame war here, but I would like to research your source material.
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      10-19-2016, 04:27 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Yeah, tell me Justin Bieber's song is worth $500M.

Next time you download an MP3 song off the internet, tell me that MP3 is worth $5 each song.
Entertainment is certainly a part of it but the core theft is technology, R&D...the "how to"
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      10-19-2016, 04:27 PM   #47
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Yeah, pure communism is flawed in that there is no incentive for anyone to work hard. Now China's economy is more capitalistic than the USA.

It's very fucked up though - people will walk all over others, even screw their own families to make money. Money is now #1 priority for everyone. As Deng Xiaoping declared, "Getting rich is glorious!"

Vietnam is following the same road too now. It's a fucked up world.

It probably will stabilize in the future much as the US did 100 years ago.
Pure communism, part communism, socialism, all flawed. Too much power in the hands of the govt.
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      10-19-2016, 04:29 PM   #48
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Right.

Hey guys go and flip through history books written by others than your leaders and then let's talk.

Russia (soviet union) crushed Germany like they did Napoleon earlier. What you guys did was that you saved our arses from ourselves.

And I didn't bother to read after the first few comments but I feel like mentioning Canada. They may have a few lessons they could and should share with us all.
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      10-19-2016, 04:30 PM   #49
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Yes, it's better for them to steal some patent designs than allowing world war 3. That number is way inflated. That's like saying Microsoft Windows cost $200 per license - that's the retail price but Windows comes built into every PC at a much cheaper price. Also stuff like a Justin Beiber song is worth $500 million in sales but is instead pirated. WTF, i'd wouldn't pay for Bieber crap.

As for hacking computer systems... it's part of China testing it's powers. The US does the same thing but of course the US media doesn't cover it. Snowden blew the US cover though. It's retaliation.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoz.../#17620dd15d84
Your choice for president is a mob boss and the US media isn't covering that either. Huh. Go figure.
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      10-19-2016, 04:34 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Lups View Post
Right.

Hey guys go and flip through history books written by others than your leaders and then let's talk.

Russia (soviet union) crushed Germany like they did Napoleon earlier. What you guys did was that you saved our arses from ourselves.

And I didn't bother to read after the first few comments but I feel like mentioning Canada. They may have a few lessons they could and should share with us all.
Sources?

Though Napolean did suffer a defeat in Russia, the Russians really didn't beat him there. It was his lack of understanding of the logistics needed. He actually crushed the Czars army at Borodino. But he lacked supplies......especially when the Russians burned all their own supplies.
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      10-19-2016, 04:40 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by jgoens View Post
I have always had a fascination with WWII. There are two mistakes Hitler made leading to the Nazi downfall: Hitler was prescribed amphetamines to keep him awake at all times which caused bad judgment. Sending large portions of the Nazi army into Russia during the worst winter of the century led to the demise of these forces. England was on the ropes and had he not went after Russia then and finished England and waited for a better time he could have taken Russia leaving the US as the last to conquer.
While Japan at this time was losing the Pacific, Hitler could have concentrated his resources on that and development of the Atomic bomb.
So, while no one knows how we would have fared solely against a non-depleted Nazi force, I think they would have prevailed had it not been for the Russians.
Hitler wasn't as bad a strategist as portrayed. His orders after the onset of the early Russian winter pretty much saved the Germans from an immediate fate similar to Napoleon's continental Grand Armee.
Hitler's biggest mistake was to take on the Russians w/o winning over its people.. it was just a matter of time after he repeated the mistake of Napoleon.
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      10-19-2016, 04:40 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VRG_135 View Post
Sources?

Though Napolean did suffer a defeat in Russia, the Russians really didn't beat him there. It was his lack of understanding of the logistics needed. He actually crushed the Czars army at Borodino. But he lacked supplies......especially when the Russians burned all their own supplies.
I just spent a day calculating with my kids how much food that army per member had if the 20 k horses were the modern size and they ate even the eyeballs.

Germany did the same. Hell, their weakness was the only reason my country remained independent.

But I'd like you to see middle east as your winter war in Russia. You can, and you apparently do spend a lot there but some say cheaper means could be used.
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      10-19-2016, 04:40 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VRG_135 View Post
Difference being scales of economy. We may do some espionage trying to find out about their military or foreign policy. They are stealing commercial ideas and intellectual property
I'm not going to argue the aims. Like my above point, they are after money.
Those are private individuals looking to make money by stealing US stuff. US private companies have no incentive to hack Chinese companies.

The Chinese govt they would want to get intel on US troop deployments, top military technology to steal or to find counters for and positions on topics of interest.
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      10-19-2016, 04:43 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Lups View Post
I just spent a day calculating with my kids how much food that army per member had if the 20 k horses were the modern size and they ate even the eyeballs.

Germany did the same. Hell, their weakness was the only reason my country remained independent.

But I'd like you to see middle east as your winter war in Russia. You can, and you apparently do spend a lot there but some say cheaper means could be used.
Lups

Y'all lost the winter war and the only reason you're not speaking german or russian is because of what the US did in the 40's and did throughout the 1950's-1990's
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      10-19-2016, 04:43 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VRG_135 View Post
Sources?

Though Napolean did suffer a defeat in Russia, the Russians really didn't beat him there. It was his lack of understanding of the logistics needed. He actually crushed the Czars army at Borodino. But he lacked supplies......especially when the Russians burned all their own supplies.
You mean in Borodino and in Moscow.. sure he went there but there was nothing.. so what did he actually win?
Well and how exactly is Napoleon supposed to win when his troops arent even supplied? Cant win any more battles if youve no supplies.. starving, cold, low on ammo.. facing the Russian Kossacks all the way home .. pure disaster

jeez sidetracked arent we
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      10-19-2016, 04:47 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VRG_135 View Post
Pure communism, part communism, socialism, all flawed. Too much power in the hands of the govt.
The people aren't dumb. They know the govt has control of just about anything and they have no control over the direction of the country. They're just too busy trying to get rich to care.

Once they have money and can satisfy their basic needs, they'll start caring. It's just a matter of time. That's why all the rich people are leaving or looking to leave China. They know the govt can take it all way if they wanted - they'd rather be somewhere they can be free.
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      10-19-2016, 04:51 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
The people aren't dumb. They know the govt has control of just about anything and they have no control over the direction of the country. They're just too busy trying to get rich to care.

Once they have money and can satisfy their basic needs, they'll start caring. It's just a matter of time. That's why all the rich people are leaving or looking to leave China. They know the govt can take it all way if they wanted - they'd rather be somewhere they can be free.
I agree. Its going to get nasty in China...........perhaps sooner than later. The Great firewall can't keep western ideas of freedom and democracy out forever.
I suspect it'll get bad in HK 1st.
Now, back to you originally scheduled thread. .....
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      10-19-2016, 04:54 PM   #58
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If you look at things from a Chinese point of view - they are the underdog that has been cheated on and beat up by Westerners for a long time. The English, Americans, the Japanese, the Russians, even the Dutch and French have carved out their land, taken advantage of their people and used them for their resources. Now that they have power, they're out to show everyone who's boss and stand up to the bullies. After centuries of being a punching bag, they have no love for outsiders.

Of course, its in the US's interest to keep things from escalating. That means letting a few little thing slide. An actual war is something neither side wants.
I can look at it from a Chinese point of view. My cultural background is Chinese but I'm a US born citizen. My parents immigrated from China and have plenty of stories to share with me about the "Great Cultural Revolution". From history and first hand account told to me by my parents, the Chinese have been doing it to themselves for a long time without even factoring in foreign oppression.

The showing whose boss is inherent in the culture as there's a lot of nationalism and feeling the Chinese people as a whole are better than everyone else.
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      10-19-2016, 05:00 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
Are you of Chinese decent by chance?
No, there's a lot of news and articles about it.

China has always felt as a victim of the Western powers. That's why it does so much to assert itself and challenge others who they perceive to threaten their power. It's a dangerous situation. Just like a caged tiger, it'll lash out at their captors at every chance - they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic...a-sees-america

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-dang...ity-1465880577
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      10-19-2016, 05:06 PM   #60
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Lups

Y'all lost the winter war and the only reason you're not speaking german or russian is because of what the US did in the 40's and did throughout the 1950's-1990's
Cool. We got so much help with that one.

The second one is on us, for sure. Even our leader saw it as it was, populism.

Actually, I think finland survived the next 50 years because we learned from our mistakes. Before WW2 we had a civil war. Sure, we had a stagnant period of a few decades but what we did was that we studied Russia. In my high school history class my teacher said in one sentence what would happen in our future.

" Russia tried 30 years in Afghanistan. They tend to get their way but what will it take to someone to do it for them?"

The same man said our mooses killing people is a bad, but a good thing.

"you're driving and you can't tell the time? Have fun. That's a corpse. Learn how to think beyond of the immediate and then think again."

I saw the dude a few years back in our hs reunion and I asked if he meant what happened after his words from 1998.

"I'm not that smart but what would you do?"

And it's not usa only. We all do this and a big player is that the whole Europe is stuck with Russian energy sources.
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      10-19-2016, 05:11 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
I can look at it from a Chinese point of view. My cultural background is Chinese but I'm a US born citizen. My parents immigrated from China and have plenty of stories to share with me about the "Great Cultural Revolution". From history and first hand account told to me by my parents, the Chinese have been doing it to themselves for a long time without even factoring in foreign oppression.

The showing whose boss is inherent in the culture as there's a lot of nationalism and feeling the Chinese people as a whole are better than everyone else.
Yeah, the Chinese pride was hurt a lot... Prior to the Westerners showing up, they were the center of the world and prospering. The barbarian Europeans and Americans came in with superior military power and humiliated them. Given a nationalistic ideal and a culture that values pride and "face" at all costs, they aren't happy.

Interestingly, the same thing happened to the Japanese. But instead of becoming hermits like the Chinese, the Japanese embraced Western technology and built a huge military power.
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      10-20-2016, 03:57 PM   #62
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Here's another abject failure on the part of Clinton/Kerry/Obama foreign policy

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-seek-ex...180514197.html

The three stooges strike again
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      10-20-2016, 04:43 PM   #63
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[quote=VRG_135;20730664]
Quote:
Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
Of course they would say that..
there is no real way to replay history.
However the Luftwaffe was split .. the large majority of its force was in the Eastern Front tasked with establishing air superiority and ground support.
The wings on the Western Front were tasked with Defense of the Reich campaign ie.. air defense against bombers.
The US/UK faced the smaller forces mustered by the Luftwaffe.. it never faced its best units nor its full brunt.
The Nazis had their hands full in the Eastern Front.. prior to the war many German pilots were training with Russians in the schools in Lipetsk. The Russians were by no means bad airmen.. no not much is ever touted of the Russian role in WW2.. propaganda.

Sources, please. I don't want a flame war here, but I would like to research your source material.
I agree with you here. The best, brightest, and more effective units were sent to the Eastern Front, both ground troops and air units. Though many may disagree, this was the single reason Germany lost the war. Millions of troops were chewed up by the Russian winter and the huge advantage they held mechanically was neutralized by the cold. We could go on for quite a while about logistics as well but we have already gone
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      10-20-2016, 10:29 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by jpnh View Post
Here's another abject failure on the part of Clinton/Kerry/Obama foreign policy

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-seek-ex...180514197.html

The three stooges strike again
I thought these were the 3 stooges. ?!?
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      10-20-2016, 10:31 PM   #65
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I thought these were the 3 stooges. ?!?
Oh. they are.....make no mistake about it.....

That reminds me.....you know the "Sofa King" joke right

Write the following on a piece of paper

I
M
Sofa
King
Wee
Todd
Did

then give it to someone and ask them to read out loud three times quickly

Anyone that actually reads it out loud.....well......"you know....."
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      10-21-2016, 11:33 AM   #66
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[quote=MKSixer;20736223]
Quote:
Originally Posted by VRG_135 View Post

I agree with you here. The best, brightest, and more effective units were sent to the Eastern Front, both ground troops and air units. Though many may disagree, this was the single reason Germany lost the war. Millions of troops were chewed up by the Russian winter and the huge advantage they held mechanically was neutralized by the cold. We could go on for quite a while about logistics as well but we have already gone
In addition, the campaign by the nature of the Russia countermeasures/strategies went way too long for the Germans.. the supply lines were way overstretched and the panzers overran many pockets (esp urban areas) which needed to be slowly consolidated.
Eventually as the campaign dragged on, the Russians seen so much of the Blitzkreig and pincer attacks that guys like Zhukov came up with effective countermeasures against them.. that and the Urals factories cranking out full steam under lend-lease from Britain and those insidious international bankers.. it was just a matter of time before production and manpower ground-down the Wehrmacht.

The Russians paid for WW2 with 20 million lives.

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