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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > What exhaust set up to go with AA Headers??



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      03-12-2018, 05:18 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
How much of a difference, really, do you guys think there is between the aFe and SuperSprint offerings? I'm seeing that you guys say smaller is better right after the cats, whereas aFe obviously disagrees as they went out of their way to increase the sizing of that section of piping (even though their flanges are the OE sizes). According to aFe that is to "maximize efficiency and sound" or something to that effect, but here I am seeing other views on the matter. I haven't bolted mine up but hearing of potential low end TQ loss has me second guessing them.
I have the Supersprint #1 cat delete sections feeding a 3" thinwall 304SS exhaust system after a welded on merge that adapts the diameters. AFEs cat delete pipes are or were supposed to be larger but I didn't want to slow the exhaust before the merge.
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      03-12-2018, 05:19 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justpete View Post
Thanks. I always think of midpipes as the ones with the secondaries but that's a misinterpretation then.
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Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
I'm with you on this one...
Heh, considering that BMW shipped these cars with a solid one-peice exhaust system (after the headers), I'd say this is open to interpretation so we are all correct. BMW just had to put so much piping before the secondary cats, I guess due to the chassis of the car, so it's odd indeed because the secondary cats are almost mid-way through the exhaust stream. But the way I look at it: Typically aftermarket exhaust systems are called "cat-back" exhaust systems, and usually they will include a "mid-pipe" section and a muffler section. So to me that means the mid-pipe is always after the cats.

Last edited by atmosphericM; 03-13-2018 at 01:14 PM..
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      03-12-2018, 05:24 PM   #25
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Another picture of the Supersprint pipes

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      03-12-2018, 06:08 PM   #26
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That is beautiful but I'd hate to stand behind it when you start it up :P

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Originally Posted by justpete View Post
Another picture of the Supersprint pipes

Attachment 1784624
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      03-12-2018, 06:24 PM   #27
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That is beautiful but I'd hate to stand behind it when you start it up :P
I have and you are not wrong. At all.
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      03-12-2018, 08:25 PM   #28
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If you don’t want to attract any attention, keep the rest stock. As others mentioned, secondaries will help keep the fumes down. I suppose you could always pay up and replace the secondaries with aftermarket hfc’s that are 100 cell but not sure you’d gain much.

I personally run headers -> y merge -> hfc -> 3” piping all the way back with combo of Magnaflow and Flowmaster mufflers (MF acts as resonator), and it’s still pretty loud. But for a 3” setup, doubt you could get it any quieter without sacrificing flow.
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      03-12-2018, 09:53 PM   #29
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FWIW, I had a mini cat in place to control the smell, but I replaced it with a res to improve the noise
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      03-13-2018, 11:04 AM   #30
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So I am checking out SuperSprint exhaust parts now.. wondering if I should replace my aFe Race Pipes with SuperSprint Section 1 (cat delete). When looking at SuperSprint's website, the photo looks different than justpete's setup. And I want to say that other SS photo's I've seen on the forum here look like justpete's setup and not like the SS website, so I'm confused. Anyone know what the deal is? On the SS website the pipes are not welded together and I also don't see an O2 bung, two things I'd prefer.

Also, according to SS the pipes must be used in conjunction with their other exhaust parts. But it looks like Axiom, as well as surely others, has successfully mated it with the PE. According to one website I found, the SS section 1 needs to be cut shorter to work with the OE setup (PE). Any guidance would be appreciated!

Part No. : 789012

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      03-13-2018, 11:05 AM   #31
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Big, have you considered the SuperSprint as an option? Their stuff looks really nice, and you have the option of a beefy looking resonator as well as highflow cats (200 cell) in section 1. Time to ball out!
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      03-13-2018, 11:49 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biginboca View Post
Btw I once read a post by justpete where he said with no cats he never noticed much smell at all. Supposedly these engines burn pretty clean.

Is anyone else running no cats (primary and secondary deleted) and care to comment?
That's been my experience as well. No gas smell at all after removing cats.

It's also been my experience that a minimal exhaust (no cats, lightweight racing muffler from Coast Fabrication and lightweight Vibrant 1142 resonator) will be loud. My car's in for an exhaust service this week to install ceramic thermal coated SuperSprint headers, and tweak the suppressors for more attenuation so that the car is less raucous.

The stock exhaust system weighs a ton. It's one of the few items I haven't weighed on a scale, but it isn't light.
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      03-13-2018, 12:01 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsuo111 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biginboca View Post
Btw I once read a post by justpete where he said with no cats he never noticed much smell at all. Supposedly these engines burn pretty clean.

Is anyone else running no cats (primary and secondary deleted) and care to comment?
That's been my experience as well. No gas smell at all after removing cats.

It's also been my experience that a minimal exhaust (no cats, lightweight racing muffler from Coast Fabrication and lightweight Vibrant 1142 resonator) will be loud. My car's in for an exhaust service this week to install ceramic thermal coated SuperSprint headers, and tweak the suppressors for more attenuation so that the car is less raucous.
(please!) link a video after you break it in! I toned my rasp down alot but at 2.5 - 3k it presents itself still.
I also wasn't smart nuff to get anything coated. Maybe it'll help me in my endeavors...
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      03-13-2018, 12:14 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
So I am checking out SuperSprint exhaust parts now.. wondering if I should replace my aFe Race Pipes with SuperSprint Section 1 (cat delete). When looking at SuperSprint's website, the photo looks different than justpete's setup. And I want to say that other SS photo's I've seen on the forum here look like justpete's setup and not like the SS website, so I'm confused. Anyone know what the deal is? On the SS website the pipes are not welded together and I also don't see an O2 bung, two things I'd prefer.

Also, according to SS the pipes must be used in conjunction with their other exhaust parts. But it looks like Axiom, as well as surely others, has successfully mated it with the PE. According to one website I found, the SS section 1 needs to be cut shorter to work with the OE setup (PE). Any guidance would be appreciated!

Part No. : 789012
I think the shop added the O2 sensor bung, can't really remember though. And they came up with the merge and adapters from Burns, etc. to weld it all together, none of it was from Supersprint.
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      03-13-2018, 12:31 PM   #35
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tetsuo111 Didn't you have a video of the exhaust before? I seem to remember it being a tolerable volume level.

I have the Super Sprint Mids into my BMW PE, they bolted up almost perfectly, but did require some trimming if I remember correctly. Also, I believe the SS mids are about the same diameter as stock, and the AFE pipes are larger.

The only dyno I've seen specifically for AFE mids was from jc5988
But a couple of notes here: N51's likely have a more restrictive secondary catalyst in comparison to the N52 (it's a different part number) and you can't really establish a trend on 1 data point - so I can't say definitively they always lose torque

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...&highlight=Ess
RED is ESS tune + PI
Blue is above + PE and AFE Mid Pipe


That being said, I've seen other dynos of the secondaries removed (smaller diameter piping?) with and no loss of torque, so take it how you will.

Made a thread about this a while back (when I had insomnia and had plenty of time to read): http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1149179
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      03-13-2018, 12:54 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
Big, have you considered the SuperSprint as an option? Their stuff looks really nice, and you have the option of a beefy looking resonator as well as highflow cats (200 cell) in section 1. Time to ball out!
As of this today I’m thinking of going with the full AA set up and keeping stock secondary cats. Stock secondary is 200cel so basically a high flow cat already. And the stock piping all seems to be ideal and cohesive with the recommendations in this thread.



The system I'm looking at above has a resonator in the 3” mid pipe and a anti drone chamber on the muffler. (That thing hanging off the muffler.) None of the others I have seen have the anti drone thing. And it's also 3" from the y pipe back. And from a bunch of reading I did you need 3" from the point the pipes merge if you are over 250hp. Interestingly the stock is also 3" from the y back but none of the aftermarket mids are except this one. BMW designed a pretty decent exhaust but they sacrificed power to be whisper quiet.

I feel like the full AA set up is quiet at idle and low revs based on Post 113 below* and the first video I posted in this thread which you can’t even hear it idling. In that video you wouldn’t even know the car is running until he gets in. I’m also okay with it being louder at high revs if it sounds refined and clean.

*
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1235816&page=6

This post is the only comment I have found on the whole AA set up (Headers/Mid/Muffler). Partially I will be putting my faith in AA that they know what they are doing when they designed this exhaust. I’ll be okay with it if it only gets loud at high revs because I can control that, I just don’t want drone or loud startups and idling.

I’m open to feedback on this I just got nervous about going fully catless after some reading I did about bad smells. Not on this forum it was on a M3 forum because there isn’t much info on catless n52 motors.
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      03-13-2018, 12:55 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsuo111 View Post
That's been my experience as well. No gas smell at all after removing cats.

It's also been my experience that a minimal exhaust (no cats, lightweight racing muffler from Coast Fabrication and lightweight Vibrant 1142 resonator) will be loud. My car's in for an exhaust service this week to install ceramic thermal coated SuperSprint headers, and tweak the suppressors for more attenuation so that the car is less raucous.

The stock exhaust system weighs a ton. It's one of the few items I haven't weighed on a scale, but it isn't light.
In my Z, I only smelled the fumes whenever I was sitting at a light. Once you’re moving you don’t notice it. I may also be more sensitive to it because I sit relatively further back compared to e9x owners.
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      03-13-2018, 01:01 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
If it were me, I would be using the SS mids (around 53-54mm) instead of the larger AFE 64mm mids which did show some low end torque loss.
When you say "did show," what are you referring to? Link?

I just read that my350z thread, interesting stuff! It got me thinking though. Do you guys think scavenging is already ruined by the primary cats, for us OE header guys? I'd imagine that the exhaust gases rapidly expanding into a catalytic converter chamber and then also funneling through those tiny cat pores would completely abolish any scavenging effects. Thoughts?

I am trying to decide if SuperSprint section 1 would be better than aFe section one (race pipes) for me (stock headers), because the aFe race pipes are about 10mm larger than the SuperSprint (as Axiom mentioned). That said, if the cats in the headers have already ruined any and all scavenging effects, maybe the larger aFe pipes could actually improve power over the SuperSprint due to less back pressure?? Sorry, Big, for kinda high-jacking your thread as I realize this is irrelevant for you since you have catless headers.

Personally, I feel that cats are one of the biggest "quieting" parts of the exhaust system. They also seem to reduce rasp more than mufflers do. Those two attributes, coupled with the fact that they do help protect Planet Earth (guess I'm getting a TINY bit green in my old age lol), are the reasons that I never plan on running with zero cats on this car. I just think it would be too loud without any cats, no matter how many mufflers or resonators are thrown at it. For a race car, sure. But for my DD, no thanks. To each his own! If and when I go to SS or AA headers (after warranty expires), I plan on immediately re-installing my OE secondary cats. That said, I still feel that the best (quietest) setup that didn't have any cats at all would be either the entire OE cat-back exhaust (obviously), or the OE mid-pipe (resonated, supposedly a good design?) paired with the PE muffler.
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      03-13-2018, 01:13 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
When you say "did show," what are you referring to? Link?

I just read that my350z thread, interesting stuff! It got me thinking though. Do you guys think scavenging is already ruined by the primary cats, for us OE header guys? I'd imagine that the exhaust gases rapidly expanding into a catalytic converter chamber and then also funneling through those tiny cat pores would completely abolish any scavenging effects. Thoughts?

I am trying to decide if SuperSprint section 1 would be better than aFe section one (race pipes) for me (stock headers), because the aFe race pipes are about 10mm larger than the SuperSprint (as Axiom mentioned). That said, if the cats in the headers have already ruined any and all scavenging effects, maybe the larger aFe pipes could actually improve power over the SuperSprint due to less back pressure?? Sorry, Big, for kinda high-jacking your thread as I realize this is irrelevant for you since you have catless headers.

Personally, I feel that cats are one of the biggest "quieting" parts of the exhaust system. They also seem to reduce rasp more than mufflers do. Those two attributes, coupled with the fact that they do help protect Planet Earth (guess I'm getting a TINY bit green in my old age lol), are the reasons that I never plan on running with zero cats on this car. I just think it would be too loud without any cats, no matter how many mufflers or resonators are thrown at it. For a race car, sure. But for my DD, no thanks. To each his own! If and when I go to SS or AA headers (after warranty expires), I plan on immediately re-installing my OE secondary cats. That said, I still feel that the best (quietest) setup that didn't have any cats at all would be either the entire OE cat-back exhaust (obviously), or the OE mid-pipe (resonated, supposedly a good design?) paired with the PE muffler.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=35
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      03-13-2018, 01:27 PM   #40
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Thanks. Took me a minute to compose my previous post (at work) so I think you answered some of my questions before I hit "post" heh.

See, that graph you posted is scaring me away from my aFe install. When I deleted cats on my Z I definitely noticed a loss in low-end TQ. Everyone always says I'm crazy and that it's impossible.. but here we have a graph showing exactly that. Hmmm. That graph shows a near 10 tq loss in the lower RPMS, yikes.
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      03-13-2018, 01:33 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
Thanks. Took me a minute to compose my previous post (at work) so I think you answered some of my questions before I hit "post" heh.

See, that graph you posted is scaring me away from my aFe install. When I deleted cats on my Z I definitely noticed a loss in low-end TQ. Everyone always says I'm crazy and that it's impossible.. but here we have a graph showing exactly that. Hmmm. That graph shows a near 10 tq loss in the lower RPMS, yikes.
Unlike the Z, the MSV70/80 has realtime adaptions to targets, so you don't have to retune for most mods, though things like headers and a new intake manifold definitely.

On the VQ, you should have absolutely re-tuned for testpies - there should have been no losses at all.

As far as the AFE pipes go - either they change the flow characteristics too much, requiring a tune based around a freer flowing exhaust (like headers) or they are just too big - Can't know unless you try em.
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      03-13-2018, 01:45 PM   #42
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Thanks for your thoughts. I'll go through your huge, 13 page thread when I get a chance... heh.

And FWIW, I had those ART Pipes on my HR Z. Those are what I'm referring to. Well actually I had regular test pipes, then went to the ART Pipes to try to regain that lost low-end TQ. Didn't work. I needed a tune. Was in college and broke back then so tune was not in the cards at the time, unfortunately.

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      03-13-2018, 01:47 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
Thanks for your thoughts. I'll go through your huge, 13 post thread when I get a chance... heh.

And FWIW, I had those ART Pipes on my HR Z. Those are what I'm referring to. Well actually I had regular test pipes, then went to the ART Pipes to try to regain that lost low-end TQ. Didn't work. I needed a tune. Was in college and broke back then so tune was not in the cards at the time, unfortunately.
Was it a Rev up, DE or a HR? Man, I wanted a VQ powered anything for a while (specifically a G) but the N52 has scratched that itch for now.
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      03-13-2018, 01:53 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biginboca View Post
As of this today I’m thinking of going with the full AA set up and keeping stock secondary cats. Stock secondary is 200cel so basically a high flow cat already. And the stock piping all seems to be ideal and cohesive with the recommendations in this thread.

I’ll be okay with it if it only gets loud at high revs because I can control that, I just don’t want drone or loud startups and idling.
I agree with all of this. Just keep the *high-flow-ish* OE secondaries so you won't have to worry about smell, plus they will really help keep it quiet. That said, I honestly just don't see you getting more than 5 whp by changing the cat-back exhaust. So, is it worth it? For me, the sound definitely would be. But if you are trying to stay as stealthy as possible, then I dunno...

Also, what is the benefit of the AA mid-pipe vs. the stock mid-pipe?

Hmm, perhaps there is a way to "defeat" or disable the cold-start scenario? hassmaschine ?? New Mustangs come with a button to do just that. Don't wake the neighbors! Personally, cold-starts are my favorite.

"Dat's only in da monin'! You pose'd t-be up cookin' breakfiss in tha monin!"

Last edited by atmosphericM; 03-13-2018 at 02:08 PM..
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