|
|
|
|
|
|
BMW Garage | BMW Meets | Register | Today's Posts | Search |
|
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum
>
Let's Have a Sway Bar Discussion!
|
|
09-07-2008, 12:07 AM | #23 |
Lieutenant Colonel
52
Rep 1,714
Posts |
First off, my TC Kline system is bouncy on the surface streets but BETTER THAN STOCK on the freeway.
This is with stock wheels and tires. On the track with my track tires/wheels, it is no comparison. My take is that with the E90/92, anti-swaybars are good for STREET use. It makes the car feel flatter, which some may think is better. But if you ever go on track, you will be cursing a thicker rear anti-swaybar from the first session to the end of the day. With it, I was experiencing very very very bad wheelspin in corners. We're talking hitting the rev limiter if I even thought about accelerating before I was straight. Additionally, it made the car snap oversteer on occasion. The thing I really like about the E90/92 is that it's very predictable. Slow, easy rotations. The thicker rear anti-sway would make me gripgripgrip...SNAP! FWIW - my laptimes were slower with the thicker rear anti-sway, I surmise because I couldn't accelerate worth crap out of corners. $500 to install the anti-swaybars. $500 to remove the anti-swaybars. $1000 wasted. If you're just going to street it, then it might work. Many like that "feeling" of less roll. |
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 12:45 AM | #24 |
Modder Raider
755
Rep 8,633
Posts
Drives: M3
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Surf City, HB
|
Thanks man,
You're definitely making me think more about it.
__________________
e36 M3 Coupe, e36 325i Sedan
e90 335i--SOLD Best 60-130-------------9.15 Seconds------------------WWW.MR5RACING.COM |
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 01:40 AM | #25 | |
Major General
375
Rep 7,076
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 09:03 AM | #26 | |
Modder Raider
755
Rep 8,633
Posts
Drives: M3
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Surf City, HB
|
Quote:
__________________
e36 M3 Coupe, e36 325i Sedan
e90 335i--SOLD Best 60-130-------------9.15 Seconds------------------WWW.MR5RACING.COM |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 12:16 PM | #27 | |
.
32
Rep 867
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 12:37 PM | #28 | |
Brigadier General
434
Rep 4,380
Posts
Drives: 2014 Audi A4 / 91 Track Miata
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: San Jose, CA
|
Quote:
__________________
Car is now gone .... :-( |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 12:55 PM | #29 |
Modder Raider
755
Rep 8,633
Posts
Drives: M3
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Surf City, HB
|
Now, if you guys are saying that I'm going to need an LSD when I put Hotchkis sway bars on then I'm not going to do it.
Dose the sway bars really affect traction that bad? This whole time before the thread I was thinking that it helped with traction.
__________________
e36 M3 Coupe, e36 325i Sedan
e90 335i--SOLD Best 60-130-------------9.15 Seconds------------------WWW.MR5RACING.COM |
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 12:59 PM | #30 |
Drives Smart
54
Rep 2,393
Posts |
Well on the track if you are 2 stiff, it will lift the inner tire causing
wheelspin and losing time. The LSD will help of course distributing the power so the inner wheel just does not spin out all of the power. On the street sways should be fine since I don't really see people driving around on the street like they are on the track.
__________________
08 BMW ///M5 Space Gray/Black 6 speed Engine: RPi GTS exhaust, RPi Scoops, Carbon Filter Delete Exterior: Glossy Black Kidneys, LUX V3, OEM LED License Plate light, Bruce License Plate Adapter |
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 01:09 PM | #31 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
52
Rep 1,714
Posts |
Quote:
Regardless, that solves the wheelspin problem. The anti-swaybar induced snap oversteer would still be there. I had the H&R. It doesn't matter. We're talking physics here. Change the differential anti-swaybar stiffness (biasing towards rear) and you will get massive wheelspin and snap oversteer. Trust me, it still pisses me off to this day that it cost me $1000 to learn that lesson. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 02:27 PM | #32 |
Moderator
618
Rep 10,855
Posts |
IMO the H&R sway bars are not a good idea. Some like the "feel," but the rear bar is waaaay stiffer than OEM and will produce some undesirable characteristics, such as the snap-oversteer and inside wheel lifting that leftcoast notes.
If you are going to track your car and you know how to tune a suspension then the UUC or Hotchkis options, combined with coilovers, are a great way to go, especially if you have a LSD. If you will be tuning your car primarily for the street, then the BMW M-sport rear sway (14mm) is a good swap for the ZSP (13mm). I would do this in combo with either the BMW performance suspension package or coilovers. I would strongly advise against the H&R sways, and the fad to lower your car with H&R or other springs. Believe me, you are f#%ing up your suspension. Thicker, bigger, lower does not always mean better, especially for street conditions where you need compliance. Look at what the Euro tuners -- Alpina, ACS, et al -- are doing: no more than 1cm lowering, slight increase in rear sway, even slighter to front, better dampers, but not stiffer springs.
__________________
My recent ED photos: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1026808
my not-so-recent ED: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31829 Please join BMWCCA http://bmwcca.org/index.php?pageid=c...&ref_by=300279 |
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 02:30 PM | #33 |
Drives Smart
54
Rep 2,393
Posts |
So KW V2 w/ BMW M-sport rear sway would be good? The front does not
really need to be touched does it?
__________________
08 BMW ///M5 Space Gray/Black 6 speed Engine: RPi GTS exhaust, RPi Scoops, Carbon Filter Delete Exterior: Glossy Black Kidneys, LUX V3, OEM LED License Plate light, Bruce License Plate Adapter |
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 03:13 PM | #34 |
Lieutenant Colonel
52
Rep 1,714
Posts |
Get a LSD if you're thinking about doing ANYTHING to the rear anti-sways. This is regardless of what you do to the front.
anti-sways should be the last resort to solve suspension issues. With TcKline (and bilstein pss9 like s4to335), we are perfectly neutral with the stock rear sway. Not sure of the fascination with anti-swaybars. They don't help on this car, but I guess they are "bling" ? |
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 03:22 PM | #35 | |
Major General
375
Rep 7,076
Posts |
Quote:
that is what keep me doing the sway bar! |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 03:33 PM | #36 |
Modder Raider
755
Rep 8,633
Posts
Drives: M3
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Surf City, HB
|
OK, now what about this?
http://www.ecstuning.com/stage/edpd/...oductID=248877 This is the OEM rear sway bar on the e92 M3. First off, I'm wondering if the e92 will fit the e90 application. Second, if BMW uses the 20mm bar with the same body style, then how about on the 335? You can find it on this page as well. http://www.ecstuning.com/stage/edpd/...ory=Suspension Sorry for the suspension newbie questions.
__________________
e36 M3 Coupe, e36 325i Sedan
e90 335i--SOLD Best 60-130-------------9.15 Seconds------------------WWW.MR5RACING.COM |
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 03:42 PM | #37 | |
Drives Smart
54
Rep 2,393
Posts |
Quote:
So KW V2 would just be neutral and good without needing the sways. I'll probably just go that route. I don't want to be overkill. Im not sure if a LSD works with my car, unless the quaife unit works
__________________
08 BMW ///M5 Space Gray/Black 6 speed Engine: RPi GTS exhaust, RPi Scoops, Carbon Filter Delete Exterior: Glossy Black Kidneys, LUX V3, OEM LED License Plate light, Bruce License Plate Adapter |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 03:57 PM | #38 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
52
Rep 1,714
Posts |
Quote:
Two differences: 1) M3 has a LSD 2) Spring rates on M3 are matched to this anti-swaybar. Go for it, though. Just find an installer that will remove it for cheap. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 04:17 PM | #39 | |
Modder Raider
755
Rep 8,633
Posts
Drives: M3
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Surf City, HB
|
Quote:
I'm just making very sure that I'm going to be making the correct decision with whatever I do. Here's the thing, I lowered my last car, which was a MKV GLI. It sat like a 4x4 even with the GLI suspension. I was told that if you only lower it by an inch then you don't need to purchase dampers. Well, I was like you man, because I was so pissed about how the car felt. I had to pay for the installation twice. Now, I have completely made up my mind that I'm going with the BMW performance suspension since they are meant to be used with my sport springs. In addition, I'd like to tighten the feel of the car, but I do have a bunch of torque. My last dyno showed that I am making 391 ft pounds of torque and about 380 whp. I'm also tracking my car on the 21st of this month at California Speedway, and I was told that I should be able to hit 145 on the straight away. I have the power, I have the brakes, and now I'm looking for a good feel in suspension. I completely understand the under steer with this car because I was at an auto X event with my wheel turned wondering why the F I wasn't turning. I know that some has to do with my fault, but I was really hoping to help with that. Hopefully you guys can better understand where I'm coming from now. Thanks.
__________________
e36 M3 Coupe, e36 325i Sedan
e90 335i--SOLD Best 60-130-------------9.15 Seconds------------------WWW.MR5RACING.COM |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 04:34 PM | #40 |
Lieutenant Colonel
52
Rep 1,714
Posts |
No worries man, you provided tons of help to me in the past.
If were you, I would just stick a set of non-staggered tires on the Koseis. I would get good, cheap street tires. The Falken RT-615 are a big hit among track users who don't want to run R-comps. 255-40-17 all around and you should be set. Also, understeer at parking lot speeds might not equal understeer at track speeds (save for the slower hairpins). When you increase speeds, the car has a higher tendency to oversteer. I saw an Auto-x dialed car try to run in our instructor group on track. It looked like he was practicing for a drift event. Mark my word, if you don't have the LSD and put on a thicker rear anti-sway, it's going to be embarrassing on track. With that much torque, get ready to wave goodbye to everyone else on corner exit.....when they launch out of the corners and you wonder why any slight application of throttle just smokes your inside rear tire. Been there...done that. If you do put a LSD on with the anti-sway, get ready to clean out your interior as going off track sideways really does scoop a bunch of dust and weeds into your car. |
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 05:11 PM | #41 | |
ocasionally in crisis
52
Rep 2,358
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
If your car isn't scary - it's just not fast enough !
RPI IC / UR catless DPs / JB3 2.0 beta / UR CAI / Quaife LSD / Snow Methanol Injection / VK oil cooler upgrade / Forge DVs / M3 rear sway / Riss catch can / Paddle shifting 6AT / M Sport steering wheel / Logic 7 / Dunlop Direzza Z1 255/235 / |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 05:40 PM | #42 |
Brigadier General
118
Rep 3,432
Posts |
Did leftcoastman ever mentioned that he only got the H&R rear sways? IMO getting the front sways would help quite abit with the problems he experienced before. Even though the H&R front is only 0.5mm thicker than OEM, the stiffness multiplies. Since he has LSD now I think the H&R would match well, this is the set up Orb is running with KW V3.
$300 front and rear |
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 06:42 PM | #43 |
Modder Raider
755
Rep 8,633
Posts
Drives: M3
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Surf City, HB
|
This is why I was thinking that Hotckis was a good design due to the fact that the front is 95% stiffer and the rear is 105% stiffer than stock.
Notice that the H&R is something like 35% stiffer and 335% stiffer in the rear. Talk about overkill! I've completely ruled out H&R, but now I'm still determining wheter I should go Hotckis or the OEM 14mm rear only. BTW, installation will be done by myself, so I'm not worried about losing labor costs.
__________________
e36 M3 Coupe, e36 325i Sedan
e90 335i--SOLD Best 60-130-------------9.15 Seconds------------------WWW.MR5RACING.COM |
Appreciate
0
|
09-07-2008, 06:43 PM | #44 | |
Major General
375
Rep 7,076
Posts |
Quote:
i am either getting the UUC, hotchiks or the OEM M3 but i need more info before i do some stupid things! anyways....will i able to get the same installion cost ? |
|
Appreciate
0
|
Bookmarks |
|
|