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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Road to 600+ WHP



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      05-10-2018, 06:58 PM   #1
WhatDoIPutHere
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Road to 600+ WHP

Hello, summer is coming up and I plan on going north of 600whp with an ethanol mix. Car currently has VRSF CP, 5' FMIC, Dual Kompact, aFe dps, PE exhaust mod, dci, mhd stage 2+, xHP stage 3, and stage 2 lpfp. I'm hoping to upgrade turbos. My concern is what is more efficient money wise, single or twin turbos? I'm leaning towards twin since im in LA and there's almost always traffic and the power from single turbo doesn't come till later. Would anything else besides turbos be required to get 600whp, and would any internals need to be replaced? I saw a thread the engine is good until 800whp, but I don't know what threads to believe anymore Also, anyone recommend any brands, pure, mmp, etc
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      05-10-2018, 06:59 PM   #2
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I forgot to mention I also have VTT inlets and it is AT
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      05-10-2018, 07:23 PM   #3
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There's another forum that is better for those high HP build goals than this website but it's censored on here so I can't link it(hint: nickname for BMWs that's pronounced "beamer" + boost .com) if you want more in depth guidance and build feedback, but the people there aren't all quite as friendly as on here and theres a fair share more drama allowed.


That said for 600whp I think you could go either way as long as its a stage 2+ turbo/s setup and you're sticking with e85 blends. I definitely wouldn't expect longevity or anything close to OEM-like reliability (meaning like 30k+ miles) at that power level from the current aftermarket twin turbos though, IDK how the current single sets fair either. It seems to me like most cars running that power level are either track cars or dragy/vbox cars and normally have kinks being worked out pretty consistently from what I've read. The stock engine internals will be fine and I believe the AT transmission can handle it too but lots of their posts talk about sorting out one issue or another, maybe that's cause they all want even higher numbers though.

As for recommending brands I don't have any personal experience but Rob from RB has a running post on there explaining amount of turbos, time in production, and complaints/failures that seems to say their newer turbos have almost no complaints. There seems to be a pretty even mix of people running RB and VTT that both claim theirs is best and the other company is garbage because of x and y so do some looking into things and decide for yourself if you're gonna be dropping that kinda money and time. I haven't personally heard much about Pure lately but I've also noticed a lot less shit talking to or from them too so it could be a case of the silent minority vs the quiet majority but I really don't have a clue there.
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      05-10-2018, 07:24 PM   #4
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Pure twin turbos should safely get you close to your power goals.
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      05-10-2018, 07:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paanzerfaust View Post
There's another forum that is better for those high HP build goals than this website but it's censored on here so I can't link it(hint: nickname for BMWs that's pronounced "beamer" + boost .com) if you want more in depth guidance and build feedback, but the people there aren't all quite as friendly as on here and theres a fair share more drama allowed.


That said for 600whp I think you could go either way as long as its a stage 2+ turbo/s setup and you're sticking with e85 blends. I definitely wouldn't expect longevity or anything close to OEM-like reliability (meaning like 30k+ miles) at that power level from the current aftermarket twin turbos though, IDK how the current single sets fair either. It seems to me like most cars running that power level are either track cars or dragy/vbox cars and normally have kinks being worked out pretty consistently from what I've read. The stock engine internals will be fine and I believe the AT transmission can handle it too but lots of their posts talk about sorting out one issue or another, maybe that's cause they all want even higher numbers though.
Is see, I know the site you are talking about, and they are not as friendly but very informative. The car is daily driven, I won't be gassing it everyday or anything, but I would the power to use every now and then. I guess one way to make it more reliable would be to get stage 3 turbos, but not run them to their max potential? I'm trying to get the best bang for my buck
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      05-10-2018, 07:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatDoIPutHere View Post
Is see, I know the site you are talking about, and they are not as friendly but very informative. The car is daily driven, I won't be gassing it everyday or anything, but I would the power to use every now and then. I guess one way to make it more reliable would be to get stage 3 turbos, but not run them to their max potential? I'm trying to get the best bang for my buck
Yeah they're very informative but definitely more likely to jump at your throat lol. Not maxing out a Turbo and having the supporting mods for it (IE. Inlets like you have, outlets etc) will definitely help improve the longevity but those turbos are still mostly made for track runs rather than the reliability required from a DD afaik. I did see some people claiming they've had aftermarket twins on for 20-30-40k miles without major issue so it's possible but I don't know that they were hitting 600+whp, I'd be more inclined to believe they're in the 500-550 range and rarely if ever see the track or hard launches and I'd be surprised if those people didn't have another vehicle too tbh. I've been doing more and more research on it because I'd like to go with aftermarket twins too but I'm not exactly 100% confident in the things I've read about our options so far if I were to keep it as my DD
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      05-10-2018, 07:38 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Paanzerfaust View Post
Yeah they're very informative but definitely more likely to jump at your throat lol. Not maxing out a Turbo and having the supporting mods for it (IE. Inlets like you have, outlets etc) will definitely help improve the longevity but those turbos are still mostly made for track runs rather than the reliability required from a DD afaik. I did see some people claiming they've had aftermarket twins on for 20-30-40k miles without major issue so it's possible but I don't know that they were hitting 600+whp, I'd be more inclined to believe they're in the 500-550 range and rarely if ever see the track or hard launches and I'd be surprised if those people didn't have another vehicle too tbh. I've been doing more and more research on it because I'd like to go with aftermarket twins too but I'm not exactly 100% confident in the things I've read about our options so far if I were to keep it as my DD
I see, I wouldn't mind be in the 500 range on pump, but 600+ forsure on an E50 tune via mhd.
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      05-10-2018, 07:40 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Blaster400 View Post
Pure twin turbos should safely get you close to your power goals.
Would you say they're more or less reliable than mmp? I'd ask about vargas, but I've heard enough bad things about them
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      05-10-2018, 09:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatDoIPutHere View Post
Would you say they're more or less reliable than mmp? I'd ask about vargas, but I've heard enough bad things about them
Pure seems to have the best reputation for reliability with upgraded twins. Some people have good luck with other brands but it can be hit or miss. Donít cheap out since itís no fun to replace defective turbos after only a few thousand miles.
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      05-10-2018, 09:25 PM   #10
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Single turbo. Much easier to work on, last longer and sounds a 1000 times better.

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      05-10-2018, 09:46 PM   #11
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Single turbo. Much easier to work on, last longer and sounds a 1000 times better.

Doesn't it cost more than twin? Since I have to get a new manifold and switch some of the piping?
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      05-11-2018, 12:25 AM   #12
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We've got lots of stage 2 and 2+ kicking around, I think highest mileage on them that I've heard of is just under 55k, couple near 50k, tons in the 30k range, including my own. There is a lot to be said for keeping things reasonable expectation wise (i.e. if you max a turbo, it just won't last as long as if you keep it closer to reasonable shaft speeds), maintenance, and of course proper install.
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      05-11-2018, 02:50 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech View Post
We've got lots of stage 2 and 2+ kicking around, I think highest mileage on them that I've heard of is just under 55k, couple near 50k, tons in the 30k range, including my own. There is a lot to be said for keeping things reasonable expectation wise (i.e. if you max a turbo, it just won't last as long as if you keep it closer to reasonable shaft speeds), maintenance, and of course proper install.
I see, I've read about some people having major issues though. I don't know all the facts or side stories. I'm just a bit hesitant to buy purchase since it is either the product, or maybe the customer who had them installed improperly. I feel bad since there are rumors on the threads about what brands are reputable and it's hard to know who to believe. What I am looking for is mid 500s on pump gas (if that is plausible) and north of 600whp with an e50 mix
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      05-11-2018, 06:11 AM   #14
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Mmp 1ks i went with, you would get 500 on pump and wont break a sweat at 650.
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      05-11-2018, 06:35 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatDoIPutHere View Post
Doesn't it cost more than twin? Since I have to get a new manifold and switch some of the piping?
More expensive yes.
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      05-11-2018, 08:13 AM   #16
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Personally I'd look at a single bottom mount as well. But that's just personal preference. What are you going to do about your Tranny? You have an AUTO. Are they built well enough to withstand that kind of torque?
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      05-11-2018, 02:20 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by GEOS07335i View Post
Personally I'd look at a single bottom mount as well. But that's just personal preference. What are you going to do about your Tranny? You have an AUTO. Are they built well enough to withstand that kind of torque?
That is the other factor I'm considering and unsure of. How much whp and tq can an AT run without pushing it too much. I'd like to do mid 500s as dd, or is that too much for it to handle?
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      05-11-2018, 11:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatDoIPutHere View Post
That is the other factor I'm considering and unsure of. How much whp and tq can an AT run without pushing it too much. I'd like to do mid 500s as dd, or is that too much for it to handle?
I think the AT trans is still good at that point if you aren't beating on it at the track and especially if you're shooting for mid 500 instead of 600-650. I recall seeing a high 700-low 800 whp car that still had the stock AT on it with an xhp flash. xHP might even be necessary at that power level honestly so you don't experience too much slip, but everything will take more wear and tear at that power level vs stock or FBO obviously so taking care of it will be even more important than normal.
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      05-12-2018, 12:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatDoIPutHere View Post
I see, I've read about some people having major issues though. I don't know all the facts or side stories. I'm just a bit hesitant to buy purchase since it is either the product, or maybe the customer who had them installed improperly. I feel bad since there are rumors on the threads about what brands are reputable and it's hard to know who to believe. What I am looking for is mid 500s on pump gas (if that is plausible) and north of 600whp with an e50 mix
If your location is correct, you're in CA, so you have the worst fuel... ACN91. To make 500+ on that without meth or alcohol in tank you'll need to run significant boost and not a lot of timing. In that case I'd tend to recommend a size up turbo wise from what someone with access to 93 octane would want. Most guys talking about what they'd make aren't familiar with just how piss poor Arizona/California/Nevada fuel is... it's more comparable to 89 octane in any other state -big difference when it comes to reasonable timing targets -ask any of the tuners of your choice.

Any of our turbos at/above Stage 2 will make 600+ on ethanol (2, 2+. GC lite, GC's, Stage 3).

If I can help, feel free to shoot me an email, I'm happy to discuss options and what we can do for you.

Chris
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      05-12-2018, 10:31 PM   #20
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https://facebook.com/story.php?story...04687949793196

Hopefully that settles your worries about the stock AT trans (spoiler: over 800whp and breaking track records).

In regards to the above post, I agree with Chris in his earlier post about how it's good not to Max out a Turbo and in this most recent one about emissions focused gas being absolutely garbage but you've already said you're willing to run E blends right? If that's the case I'd personally invest in the necessary fuel system requirements to run more ethanol (maybe even straight e85) and save the money while getting the benefits of e blends, rather than going with a more expensive Turbo set than you originally planned on that's designed for 1/4 mile passes and hoping it'll last you another 100k. Chris is a very nice guy and obviously very knowledgeable but like all the vendors he's also paid to get people like you to drop more money on VTT products, and to a lesser extent I've heard (and seen) nothing a lot of horror stories involving Tony and people running into problems with VTT turbos not meeting their expectations. Which again, even if VTT turbos are well built which I'm sure they are, I'm personally still of the mind that anyone expecting them to last nearly as long as OEM/mitsu while trying to make 650whp on a DD will run in to that.
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      05-13-2018, 07:36 AM   #21
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The set of stage 2+ turbos I had made 675 whp at one point and even now over 600whp with the next owner. Well into 70k+ miles now.
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      05-13-2018, 01:23 PM   #22
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The set of stage 2+ turbos I had made 675 whp at one point and even now over 600whp with the next owner. Well into 70k+ miles now.
Out of curiosity, which brand? And how much boost were/are they normally run at + what supporting mods? I'm assuming by the time you did the turbos you were FBO (or at least catless DP, DCI and FMIC) and I know the inlet options we have now make a big difference in longevity of these aftermarket turbos but I'm curious as to how much outlets and other things help in the long run.
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