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[Outlaw 06]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

I think Europeans drive dramatically less than Americans, take more time off particularly in inclement weather, and are less likely to need AWD even in snowy climates...

Western Europeans in general are just better trained drivers and they don't "need" AWD (or automatic transmissions) like many Americans seem to.

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

I wouldn't call it either really. It's a utility whose value depends on the individual's use of the car.

+1

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by TJDiCandido

Western Europeans in general are just better trained drivers and they don't "need" AWD (or automatic transmissions) like many Americans seem to.

Where'd you find that fact? I'm not refuting it, but it seems like a difficult statement to back up, and as a skeptic, I do doubt it.

Show me a study or something proving Western Europeans are "better trained drivers," and that that somehow computes to something meaningful to this discussion.

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

I'm not going to take the time to respond to each of your comments as it's clear you're trolling.

I'm not a troll!

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

I will say it's also clear that you don't read any of the car mags, which only compounds how weak your arguments are.

I rest my case your honor. I'm powerless against the magazine experts.

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

I referenced the radical because it appears you're some what thick to understand that rwd ultimately is the choice for performance dedicated road racing.

Except for when RWD and AWD were actually professionally raced together, and AWD went 7 for 7, then was banned for "unfair advantages"

Except for that, right?

Oh, and we're not talking about road racing. We're talking about getting to work. Apples and Dumptrucks.

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

It doesn't matter if the Radical is a super car or not. The point is the Radical has achieved the quickest time at the 'ring ever on record AND IT USES RWD. PERIOD. Don't argue this because you're grasping for weak argument points. When an AWD vehicle (super car or not) sets the lap record at the 'Ring, let's revisit that argument.

F1 racing will never use AWD, nor will any other dedicated track going race car, be it Viper ACR, Vette, Lotus, or Ferrari. The fact is rwd is better for performance dedicated road racing. You can deny it all you want and it will only show the rest of the people here how little you know or understand. That radical will also smoke your AWD lambos and bugattis.

Lemans is exploring allowing AWD. And Touring Car Championships already have. I think that's a bunk statement and projection that will likely be proven wrong.

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by bbbuzzy

I haven't read the whole thread but obviously some feathers have been ruffled. Mag results, lap times, etc can only give a rough idea of what's up. If you really want to compare, you need the same car with both drivetrains (911, 335i/xi, etc) driven on the same track by the same driver multiple times and average the results. Often the awd setup is marginally faster, but the rwd set-up is often preferred for "feel". Bluntly stating rwd is always superior is pointless. The awd Nissan GTR often posts better lap times than Porsches, Ferraris, and Corvettes. So what?

Regarding awd vs rwd in snow. The argument happens every winter. Everyone believes they are right. Big surprise. For me, I have an AWD XC70 with Nokian WRG2's that will absolutely handle snow better than any rwd car with any tire I've ever driven. My '06 330i with Dunlop wintersport 3D's "gets by" on plowed roads, but can't handle more than 3 inches of the pow. Forget about taking it to ski country during a storm. No problem in the Volvo.
YMMV.

LOVE the Nokians. Just discovered them 4 years ago. I'll never mount anything else for winter rubber.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

No. BMW isn't negligent because people select the product they want. Please stop with ridiculous statements.

Wait a minute.... You're the one telling me to stop making ridiculous statements? That's good for a laugh.

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

There it is again. It's like clockwork. RWD with snows is "fine." "You'll get along "fine." "Fine" is a piece of shit standard for people driving the "ultimate driving machine."

I want an ultimate driving experience, not a "Fine driving experience." I don't want to just "get along okay" I think 90% of the people that bother to sign up and log into an enthusist community regularly to discuss these things are the same way. Go buy a f*cking Toyota for a the "Fine Driving Machine" I can get along "fine" in snow boots or on a bicycle too. People in my office actually commute to work in snowstorms on a bike "just fine."

Give me a break. Fine. $50,000 to get along "fine."

I don't think you understand that not everyone is participating in a timed Alpine Rally event on their way to work every day. Nor does one have to do so to be considered an enthusiast. Nor do "90%" of enthusiasts more often encounter situations where RWD won't cut it.... If you're driving on the edge of the envelope in inclement weather on roads with other traffic, you're an idiot. Driving in traffic in the winter isn't about pushing the limits. If it is for you, I think you need to re-evaluate your priorities.

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

Someone asking advice and being told to drive in snow in the worst driveline format available is getting bad advice. The advisor is irresponsible. It's not the same. In fact, they're better off in FWD than RWD with apples to apples rubber. If you deny that, you should stop advising people in the automotive theater.

Again, I don't get where you seem to be so set on the fact that it's an Alpine Rally once inclement weather starts.... To suggest that advising someone to get RWD with snows based on their conditional analysis is irresponsible, then I don't even know what to say about that.... You're brash and abrasive, and just wrong by definition due to your insistence on generalizing. You undermine your own points which may be relevant with your sweeping generalizations and inability to properly communicate with others, along with your penchant for insulting those who disagree with your own ill-formed OPINIONS on the matter.

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

As for how inconvenient it is for a person, that's too broad a brush to paint this discussion. Are there people in Long Island that are "fine" without AWD, sure. It depends on snow / ice / road conditions in their area, hills, how much they drive, if their a casual commuter or driving enthusiast, etc. I'm not taking that bait.

What do you mean you're "not taking that bait"?? That's what this entire thread was about, or did you lose that in your own rambling?

Do you even remember the OP's question? It has everything to do with his situation, in which case I'd recommend him getting AWD if the financial hit is worth it. If it's very important that he gets up steep ungroomed hills in the winter, then AWD is the obvious choice....

Quit insulting people simply because their opinions don't match yours. You have contributed nothing to this thread outside of pushing your own OPINION on a situationally dependent topic and insulting anyone who disagrees with your OPINION.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

Show me a study or something proving Western Europeans are "better trained drivers," and that that somehow computes to something meaningful to this discussion.

Wait what?

You're unaware of the training and hoops they have to jump through to earn their privilege of driving and how it compares to our silly rite-of-passage process? They are much better trained and much more aware.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

I'm not insinuating. Don't you understand the paradox of saying snow tires on the worst driveline system for inclement weather is okay, but AWD with all seasons is not? How can you accept a poor standard over a moderate one? 4 wheels with okay rubber is eons better than 2 wheels with good rubber. It's not speculation. Get out in the snow and try it for a week objectively. It's not even close. I drove 8 years in AWD with all seasons on two different cars. During that time, I also drove a 540 with snows, and a VW with all seasons. I'd rank both AWD vehicles ahead of every other one, with the 540 DEAD LAST - even after the VW (FWD) with all seasons. Not even close. Most of the time, the 2WD cars couldn't even get out of the driveway without snow shovels, salt, rocking, etc.

Owner being too lazy to properly clear his driveway is one of the conditions I'd consider when giving someone advice about which driveline to use. Obviously, in the case where the owner can't be bothered to shovel, AWD would be a great choice. However, I do fail to see how that's the 540's fault.

You say "4 wheels with ok rubber better than 2 wheels with good rubber" but that's a bit of a fallacy (and again a blanket statement and broad generalization) when you consider the fact that lateral grip and braking along with your given coefficient of static (and kinetic as well) friction affect all four wheels, not just two. You're only gaining an advantage with the AWD when your foot is on the gas. If your foot's not on the gas, guess what? You're at a disadvantage with the AS tires and the drivetrain is a moot point. I brake a lot more often than I try to get out of a self-imposed clusterf*ck of a driveway, so that is one thing I do consider greatly when comparing.

[ZoomZoom]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

Wait what?

You're unaware of the training and hoops they have to jump through to earn their privilege of driving and how it compares to our silly rite-of-passage process? They are much better trained and much more aware.

+1

2500 euro just to go to farschule...it's a privilege here not a right.

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

Wait what?

You're unaware of the training and hoops they have to jump through to earn their privilege of driving and how it compares to our silly rite-of-passage process? They are much better trained and much more aware.

Then you should have no problem proving the fact you speak so strongly in support of.

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

Owner being too lazy to properly clear his driveway is one of the conditions I'd consider when giving someone advice about which driveline to use. Obviously, in the case where the owner can't be bothered to shovel, AWD would be a great choice. However, I do fail to see how that's the 540's fault.

Wow. Clearing your driveway has nothing to do with it. Clue in bud.

Originally Posted by ragingclue

You say "4 wheels with ok rubber better than 2 wheels with good rubber" but that's a bit of a fallacy (and again a blanket statement and broad generalization) when you consider the fact that lateral grip and braking along with your given coefficient of static (and kinetic as well) friction affect all four wheels, not just two. You're only gaining an advantage with the AWD when your foot is on the gas. If your foot's not on the gas, guess what? You're at a disadvantage with the AS tires and the drivetrain is a moot point. I brake a lot more often than I try to get out of a self-imposed clusterf*ck of a driveway, so that is one thing I do consider greatly when comparing.

Lateral grip and ability to escape a loss of friction are all superior in AWD. You absolutely gain an advantage with a foot on the throttle in a slide in AWD. Drivetrain is absolutely not moot.

Are you just making shit up now?

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

I don't think you understand that not everyone is participating in a timed Alpine Rally event on their way to work every day. Nor does one have to do so to be considered an enthusiast. Nor do "90%" of enthusiasts more often encounter situations where RWD won't cut it.... If you're driving on the edge of the envelope in inclement weather on roads with other traffic, you're an idiot. Driving in traffic in the winter isn't about pushing the limits. If it is for you, I think you need to re-evaluate your priorities.

Or maybe I do? Same page as this post:

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

Oh, and we're not talking about road racing. We're talking about getting to work. Apples and Dumptrucks.

Who's talking about driving to the edge of the envelope? Have you read a single post I've made with an open mind? All I'm talking about is safe transit, slide recovery, and the obvious benefit in inclement weather of having 4 driving wheels rather than just 2.

Originally Posted by ragingclue

What do you mean you're "not taking that bait"?? That's what this entire thread was about, or did you lose that in your own rambling?

Do you even remember the OP's question? It has everything to do with his situation, in which case I'd recommend him getting AWD if the financial hit is worth it. If it's very important that he gets up steep ungroomed hills in the winter, then AWD is the obvious choice....

So you've just been arguing for the sake of it. Got it.

/thread

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

Wow. Clearing your driveway has nothing to do with it. Clue in bud.

Lateral grip and ability to escape a loss of friction are all superior in AWD. You absolutely gain an advantage with a foot on the throttle in a slide in AWD. Drivetrain is absolutely not moot.

Are you just making shit up now?

Wait, re-read what you wrote. Clearing your driveway had everything to do with the very anecdote you provided. Did you not read what you wrote?

Also, now you're saying we have to be in a slide to reap benefits.... I'm pretty sure in mentioning static friction that I was making it clear that we were trying to keep the car out of sideslip conditions. What ever happened to avoiding that situation in the first place? Wouldn't that be the safest option? "Lateral grip" in its strongest form would come from static friction (which is always greater than kinetic given equal conditions), which would also provide you the greatest control laterally. Therefore, your comment about lateral grip being superior in an AWD car with all-seasons versus a RWD car with winter tires is false, as lateral grip will fall off when you enter your slide, where you are now relying on kinetic friction along with added friction to propel the car forward, not necessarily increase lateral grip. Do you understand or am I well over your head by now? I'm not making shit up, and I haven't at all during this thread.

You contradict yourself a lot. Are you sure only one person has access to your forum account?

As far as the driving requirements in Germany, this article does a decent job of beginning to explain the basic methodology behind their training, and I think the most important aspect is not only the requirements during the learning process, but the training of the instructors and how harshly the process is scrutinized. Add to that the fact that the students are paying out the ass for the instruction, and now you've got students who give a shit about the content of the class and are out big money if they fuck up. Compare that to some states here where you can wait until you're 18, walk into SOS or DMV and take a written and road test (which requires only that you don't total the car and kill more than 50 people), and you've got your license! Even at 15-16, when you do take the so-called "instruction" here in the US, the cirriculum and especially its implementation is absolutely crap compared to countries like Germany.

[Outlaw 06]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

Where'd you find that fact? I'm not refuting it, but it seems like a difficult statement to back up, and as a skeptic, I do doubt it.

Show me a study or something proving Western Europeans are "better trained drivers," and that that somehow computes to something meaningful to this discussion.

Just do an online search for Führerschein (German Driver’s License). You’ll immediately notice that the training requirements (practical experience, day and night Autobahn driving, car control theory, etc.) are far more extensive than most states in the U.S.

Germany is a country that takes driving very seriously and they issue driver licenses accordingly with due diligence. This is unlike the U.S. where driver's licenses are little more than glorified state-issued ID cards (acquired with token, dumbed-down driving instruction). Let’s face it, demonstrated competence behind the wheel has little to do with getting issued a driver’s license in the U.S.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

So you've just been arguing for the sake of it. Got it.

No my biggest problem is with your blanket statements and brash generalizations, while at the same time you try to argue that it's a situationally dependent issue.... Which is it? You can't have both.

[DenverJayhawk]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

I'm not a troll!
Except for when RWD and AWD were actually professionally raced together, and AWD went 7 for 7, then was banned for "unfair advantages"

Except for that, right?

Oh, and we're not talking about road racing. We're talking about getting to work. Apples and Dumptrucks.

I can't believe you're still going on with this. You clearly stated in a previous post in THIS THREAD regarding racing:

"Originally Posted by AWD Addict
"Seems like most people dont' think AWD is a "drawback" in racing. You've yet to find anything saying that."


So I submitted evidence that the quickest time ever recorded at the 'Ring was performed by a Radical using only rwd. This was to show you that I found something proving rwd is ultimately the choice for road racing. To continue to deny this is ridiculous.

Your 7 for 7 awd vs rwd comparison was not using dedicated road racing vehicles. I clearly stated the context that if you want ultimate and dedicated road racing vehicles, they are ALWAYS RWD, such as in the case of the Radical and F1. Not to mention any other serious and dedicated track/road racing vehicle.

Now, you're only right that the OP's first post does not concern rwd road racing. But this thread digressed to road racing with Evidence of the Radical's time at the 'Ring when you stated that most people don't think awd is a 'drawback" in racing and that I haven't found anything to prove it otherwise..

[ceb]

Originally Posted by TJDiCandido

Just do an online search for Führerschein (German Driver’s License). You’ll immediately notice that the training requirements (practical experience, day and night Autobahn driving, car control theory, etc.) are far more extensive than most states in the U.S.

Germany is a country that takes driving very seriously and they issue driver licenses accordingly with due diligence. This is unlike the U.S. where driver's licenses are little more than glorified state-issued ID cards (acquired with token, dumbed-down driving instruction). Let’s face it, demonstrated competence behind the wheel has little to do with getting issued a driver’s license in the U.S.

After you pay about 2500 Euros for a driving school, the instructor will meet you at the testing station for the practical test (assuming you passed the theoretical test that includes questions about operating temps of engines, types of fluids etc in addition to the street signs and rights of way.) You will be tested in the car that you took your lessons in

During the driving test, the tester may ask you several questions along these lines:

"Turn on your high beam - what do you see that indicates that you got it right"?

"Lock and unlock the steering wheel lock"

"Explain the red warning lights that light up after turning the ignition"

"Set the switches and controls so that the windows do not fog up while driving"

"Secure your car as if it you had a breakdown and are on the side of the road"

"When does this vehicle have the next inspection and emissions test?"

"Your turn signal is blinking much faster on the left side than the right. What causes that?"

"how do you change a flat?"

"your low coolant light turns on while driving. What do you do?"

How many here can answer all the questions?

Note: Google translated these questions directly from a German driving school site.

[eml92]

Originally Posted by virtualbong

You obviously have not read through this thread...

Cliff Notes on driving in snowy conditions:

- RWD w/ Summer Tires will be sacrificing your cajones especially if you have no common sense driving skills.
- RWD w/ All Season is treacherous if you have no driving skills.
- RWD w/ Snow Tires will work well but you have to have good driving skills and understand the dynamics of the car in different driving situations.
- AWD w/ All Season Tires is just as good if not better than RWD w/ Snow Tires as long as you have some type of driving skills
- AWD w/ Snow Tires is the best option out there especially for those who have almost no driving skills. Hell, even this pairing may be treacherous for those bad drivers out there.

Originally Posted by ragingclue

Yes this is my third winter of daily-driving my 335i in Chicago. Hell, back in my college years, I drove a cab as my part time job in Ann Arbor too. All RWD drivetrains and I've never had a problem as long as I had snow tires on the car.

Except for the mandatory rush hour snowstorms we get here, the main roads and freeways are well-groomed, and we don't have many hills at all. So, RWD plus snows is much more than adequate except if you live somewhere that doesn't care for the streets. The city didn't get to my street until well after the two snows this year, and my car was fine through it. The only time I have had any issue at all was trying to park in my space with more accumulation than I have ground clearance, but I don't blame the equipment, I blame myself. All it really took was backing up and coming at it with a bit more momentum and a straight steering wheel and it worked fine. It didn't get stuck though. Go take a look in the Great Lakes subforum and ask for advice there. Plenty of people with RWD 335i who don't regret it one bit.



I agree with the fresh snow part; that's why I always ask about the state of grooming of the roadways where the person is. Packed snow is a bitch and might as well be ice in many cases.

I think most of us agree on the fact that there isn't one blanket answer. It depends on the situation and circumstances of the owner in question. I wouldn't for a second put RWD+snows at the top of the heap, but I would say it needs to be evaluated whether the drawbacks of the AWD setup are able to be offset by the benefits reaped by the owner.

This really shouldn't have turned into a "what is the most superior driveline ever in the entire world" thread. It's sad, because people actually have legitimate questions about this stuff, and if they're researching through the threads to get answers, they run into all kinds of self-righteous tangential bullshit.

Bottom line: figure out what your winter circumstances are for driving your car. If you don't know, go to the regional subforum. After you know all of this, you should then be able to make a decision of what driveline/tire configuration is best for you.

Sorry I didn't read through the whole thread so thanks for the cliff notes and your personal experiences. I will check out the regional subforum.

[rteichman]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

Where'd you find that fact? I'm not refuting it, but it seems like a difficult statement to back up, and as a skeptic, I do doubt it.

Show me a study or something proving Western Europeans are "better trained drivers," and that that somehow computes to something meaningful to this discussion.

Do some research on what it takes to get a driver's license in Germany (as an example), compare that to what it takes to get a driver's license in a US state (any state). It's very clear which country's drivers are better trained.

[ceb]

Oh, I forgot. You also need a 6-10 hour first aid course to get a driver's license in Germany, Austria or Switzerland and the same holds true in most EU countries.

[chrispitude]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

LOVE the Nokians. Just discovered them 4 years ago. I'll never mount anything else for winter rubber.

Where do you buy them? I noticed that Nokian has the Hakkapelliita R in a 205-55R16 runflat...

[335BBS]

Originally Posted by rteichman

Two years ago I bought a 328 coupe and specifically did not get xDrive to save on gas milage. I drive a lot and live in the Philadelphia area where we don't get much snow so I decided to go for the better MPG tradeoff. Besides, I had a 2000 3 series previously that I used to drive in the snow with no problem.

Last Spring I moved to a very VERY hilly section of Philadelphia. I was nervous because I noticed all my neighbors had SUvs LOL, but I figured what the heck. Well Sunday we got a lot of snow, and while they were very good about clearing most roads the street back to my house is up a short but steep hill. With my all season tires I was able to get out of my complex, drive downhill and then easily maneuvered around snow covered streets (BMW traction control is the best!). Unfortunately on my way back home the car would not make it up the hill. I ended up parking on the street a few blocks away in a spot I could drive into as it was down hill. I can't back out though because that is up hill. See the issue?

I figure I have to bite the bullet and do something. I love the car I have, but I also like being able to drive home. I figure my options are as follows:
1) Least expensive and if it works makes me the happiest is to buy high performance snow tires
2) Buy a hybrid SUV (for the gas milage) like the Lexus RX 400h
3) Buy a 328 xDrive Coupe.

Tires are the cheapest, but I would hate to spend $1,000 on tires only to find that I still can't get up that blasted hill. Any comments on if it will work? For those of you that know Philadelphia, I live in Manayunk. That will explain the hill part

Get 4 winters. You will go through 2 sets of tires in the next 4 years so 1 might as well be winters. i dont know how far you drive annually but the fuel cost difference between rwd and xi is VERY small.